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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lampert
Magic Device Traps completely negate the idea that the guidelines on item creation are guidelines for the DM to ESTIMATE prices rather than rules for the PCs to abuse.
The DM is specifically allowed to disagree with magic device trap elements. From DMG page 74:
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When you and the player have agreed on what spells and other elements the trap contains, you can determine the cost of the raw materials for the trap and the CR of the trap.
If you don't like what the PC is trying to do with a magic device trap, simply don't agree to the spells or other elements.
Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lampert
Magic Device Traps completely negate the idea that the guidelines on item creation are guidelines for the DM to ESTIMATE prices rather than rules for the PCs to abuse.
The DM is specifically allowed to disagree with magic device trap elements, and empowered to set the cost. From DMG page 74:
Quote:
When you and the player have agreed on what spells and other elements the trap contains, you can determine the cost of the raw materials for the trap and the CR of the trap.
If you don't like what the PC is trying to do with a magic device trap, simply don't agree to the spells or other elements. And the DM determines the cost and CR.
Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
This is more of a personal pet peeve than anything truly broken, but Legion of Sentinels in PHB2. I had a player who was very fond of this spell, which is very difficult to use because nowhere does the spell description actually give stats for the sentinels. The Short description in the Spell List gives their damage, but IIRC the long description, usually very thorough, dosn't tell the DM what exactly to do.
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon
The DM is specifically allowed to disagree with magic device trap elements, and empowered to set the cost. From DMG page 74: If you don't like what the PC is trying to do with a magic device trap, simply don't agree to the spells or other elements. And the DM determines the cost and CR.
That language is not in the SRD. Nor do I believe it is in my first printing 3.5 DMG (not with my books).
Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
That Crab x2
Iron Heart Surge
Truenamer
Dust of Sneezing & Choking x2
Shivering Touch
PaO duration/Alter Self/Polymorph/Shapechange
Trap Sense x2
You'll notice that I added the crab
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Originally Posted by Hashmir
When I die, I donate my body to the cause of whatever ******* finds it first.
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Originally Posted by Bloodgruve
Really though, how effin scary would the beach be if an octopus could launch itself outta the water at a 200' move speed every 6 seconds. I'd never go to the beach again... I thought flying sharks were scary...
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Well, first thing, I'm going to put a negative vote towards theAntagonize feat. It's not at-will, it provides a useful effect, and it doesn't work against anything immune to mind effects. It might be a bit MMORPGish, but it's not all that broken.
For for broken things, I'll put in another vote for Cancer Mage, double that if the Festering Hate disease is included in that. As amusing as the concept of the Muscle Wizard is, +2 Str each day is ridiculous.
I'll also toss one toward the Choker and its extra standard action every turn.
Lastly, I'll toss two toward the Sublime Chord, and its full sorcerer+full bard shenanigans, and I'll save the last four for later.
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
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Originally Posted by tuggyne
For now I'm considering this separate from the existing Planar Bubble entry, despite wishing to fold them together.
That's fine. I mean the class as a whole, not just the planar bubble feature. There's plenty of other badly designed, broken stuff about it.
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Originally Posted by tuggyne
By this do you mean the current "LA rules" entry, or something a little different? For now I'm assuming the former, but correct me if I am incorrect.
I mean the fact that monsters have both level adjustment and racial hit dice, and that the majority of the time, monsters with both RHD and LA are vastly underpowered compared to classes of the same level, while a select few are vastly overpowered compared to classes of the same level.
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Some awesome discussion going on here.
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Originally Posted by willpell
Okay, I'm speaking in ignorance here so I might be out of line, but I think this might be less broken than people seem to think it is (though it could still qualify for bad wording, so this isn't a neg-vote or anything yet). Curmudgeon pointed out on the Simple Rules Q thread that you can't initiate a stance while unable to move or unable to take actions, so while IHS is still quite broad, it doesn't cure the truly nasty conditions like Stunned or Petrified, because you can't use it while affected by such things. Again, please ignore me if everyone already knows this, I'm kinda late to the party with all of 3E and still haven't even read Tome of Battle.
Already warbladed on this one, but my problem with it is, in fact, that it can't cure the truly nasty conditions, while it can cure stupidly broad and scarcely negative conditions like "I'm a drow and the sun is shining on me". What's a DM supposed to do with that? (At least it's practical to use it to break charm, as AGC shows us; it also shows us another aspect of its wording stupidity, for free!)
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I had interpreted JoAT as proof that having a half-skill rank gave you the ability to use the skill, since you were trained in it. I know there's at least one rule that says otherwise, but JoAT might have been intended to override that rule, and they just weren't explicit as they should have been (though again that does qualify as bad writing).
[...]
No argument here; if free metamagic was an easy across-the-board thing it might be cool, but having some able to get it and others not is pretty awful.
Are these votes? If not, you still have two votes left.
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I'm not really counting votes; I think it's more like a measure of certainty. I'm putting one vote toward things that I find dubious, two to thinks that are definitely screwy, and would put three toward something that was utterly and completely absurd. I have yet to see anything that I'm certain would be worth three.
That's more like what I intended, yes.
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Originally Posted by sonofzeal
Actually, I want to add two votes to Void Disciple.
Spoiler
1) Void Suppression. No-save-just-lose for 90% of the monsters out there, and 95% of PCs. Just switch their Int and Str, or Con and Cha, and laaaaaaugh.
2) Moment of Clarity. Grant an ally any feat for a few rounds. Worth noting is that you specifically can't grant Ancestor feats, but Epic feats are, apparently, good to go. If you can't find a way to horribly break this, you aren't trying hard enough.
3) Sense Void. Okay, so you can sense stuff anywhere except across planar boundaries, at the cost of a piddly Spellcraft check. This raises a whole series of questions: can others sense you when you're like that? Since you're leaving your body, can you use purely mental actions in that state? Can you move around? How long does it last? Does it count as a divination effect? What can block it? RAW's lack of statement implies very dire answers...
- There's no listed method of detecting if someone else is using this.
- There's nothing preventing the use of mental actions in this state, and there's not even a mention of it requiring concentration.
- There's no method of moving (but see the previous)
- There's no limit on duration given.
- It's never referred to as a divination, nor as scrying, despite the obvious similarities.
- Given that, there's no RAW method I've heard of to block it, short of planar boundaries. Illusions work, though.
In other words, it's potentially "Scry and Die" on steroids. Can't be blocked, can't be detected, doesn't require familiarity, never runs out, and by RAW your mind is actually there, meaning you can start chucking out whatever mental action whatnots you happen to have available with zero fear of reprisal.
Basically, Sense Void is god mode. A Planar Sheppard//Beholder Mage would have reason to fear a Void Disciple.
Gah.
Now that is an impressive list. That's right up there with love's pain, in fact. (Which I am going to add, despite having no votes left to put on it.)
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Originally Posted by Morph Bark
So we can't put two or three downvotes on one of the choices?
Not at present, no; if you really want to do this, make your case for it, and I'll consider.
I don't think it would be too helpful, because the main purpose of downvotes IMO is to even out a few careless entries that don't fit all that well, not to deal with suggestions that many people agree with and some disagree with very strongly. Does that make sense?
Hmm, I don't have Serpent Kingdoms, so you'll have to explain this one to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lampert
Drop Monk from my list and add Magic Device Traps.
Monk is mearly moderately inneffective and poorly synergized. Magic Device Traps completely negate the idea that the guidelines on item creation are guidelines for the DM to ESTIMATE prices rather than rules for the PCs to abuse.
When: "Of course I can build a trap of Cure Minor Wounds activated by someone reaching into it on my spell-pouch. I don't want some undead messing with it." is one of the LESS abusive uses of a rule you know it's got problems.
As I see it, this mostly exposes the problem that trap costs don't make a whole lot of sense; they're engineered for a specific use (hurt PCs dungeon-crawling) and don't work well in other niches (hurt NPCs, help NPCs, help PCs, etc). In particular, they're easier and cheaper than wondrous items to break (action/gold/wish) economy with.
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Originally Posted by molten_dragon
I mean the fact that monsters have both level adjustment and racial hit dice, and that the majority of the time, monsters with both RHD and LA are vastly underpowered compared to classes of the same level, while a select few are vastly overpowered compared to classes of the same level.
The distinction between this and LA rules seems small, but I'll separate out your vote anyway.
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Originally Posted by Water_Bear
That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
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"Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Isn't there a race that get's both full Sorcerer and Cleric casting and a bergillion other ability's, so much that it's over powered even for it's insane LA? Can't remember what it's called.
Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metahuman1
Isn't there a race that get's both full Sorcerer and Cleric casting and a bergillion other ability's, so much that it's over powered even for it's insane LA? Can't remember what it's called.
There's Phaerimm Hatchlings, 1HD and +2LA who get Sorcerer Casting equal to their total Character level as SLA's.
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The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
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Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
For me, most of my things are Core. Truenamer isn't, but it's an entire class that doesn't function. It's the drowning rules of classes. The other is Lucid Dreaming, which can basically allow for risk-free assassination, or, more potently, use Diplomacy without actually ever meeting the target. By sleeping, you can make everyone who's subject to mind-affecting effects while asleep (so maybe when buffs are down!) a Fanatic follower.
Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by willpell
This was intentional and more or less reasonable; there's a sidebar in one of the books which explains their logic. CR and ECL measure different things; a monster doesn't care whether its powers are usable once per hour or once per day, because you'll usually kill it or be killed by it within an hour of meeting it. But for a player the difference is huge, since the once per hour power can be used in like eight fights before an adventuring day might end. There are doubtless other ramifications of the difference. CR is for monsters that are there to be killed; LA is for creatures that can be played. I would like it if they had provided LA for all monsters (just earlier today I was thinking about a clairsentient Udoroot who telecommutes to the dungeon), and they could have put more thought into how much LA a given monster race or template is worth (+2 for Celestial, are you kidding me?), but the concept overall isn't a bad one.
I think you misunderstand my issue here. A LA template is LOWER for a CR monster than it is for a player. If memory serves (It might not, I've been playing Pathfinder and GURPS for a while now) a Half-Dragon template adds +2 CR to a monster.. but +3 LA to a player. Why? it's more powerful on a monster, which as you say is there to kill or be killed.
Yes LA, ECL and CR measures completely different things, but once you want to apply a template to something it turns into a huge friggin mess.
And I take back the thing about Favored Souls being the only ones with a split stat, it was meant to be an exaggeration to get my frustration across, but apparently that doesn't work to well when typing in the middle of the night. :p
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lampert
That language is not in the SRD. Nor do I believe it is in my first printing 3.5 DMG (not with my books).
It is in mine (First Printing: July 2003).
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Originally Posted by tuggyne
Hmm, I don't have Serpent Kingdoms, so you'll have to explain this one to me.
A two sentence SK quote is all I need:
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Manyfang Dagger: This +1 dagger looks like a normal masterwork dagger, but when it hits, three phantom blades briefly whirl into existence around the main blade, stabbing and slicing the same target, then winking into nothingness again. A manyfang dagger thus deals quadruple damage on each successful hit, or quintuple damage on a critical hit.
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Multiplying Damage
Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.
If you've got non-dice bonus damage, a Manyfang Dagger will multiply it on every single hit. At level 13 a Rogue hitting with a +1 dagger could deal 1d4 +1 (from weapon enhancement) +6 (from Strength bonus) +7d6+13 (from sneak attack with Craven) +5 (from Knowledge Devotion); that's 1d4 + 7d6 +25 (average 52) with no critical. With a Manyfang dagger the +7d6 wouldn't be multiplied, but the +25 static bonus would instead become +100 on every successful sneak attack; that's 4d4 +7d6 + 100 (average 141.5).
Further shenanigans are possible with a Small character using a Manyfang Dagger sized for a Medium character.
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The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.
Once a Manyfang Dagger becomes a 1-handed weapon you can benefit from Power Attack; you can also wield it in two hands. All of that bonus would be quadrupled on every hit as well, even when you don't qualify for sneak attack. Power Attack for 9 with an oversize dagger and you add another +9 if you hit, or +18 if wielded 2-handed. Power Attack for 9 with an oversize Manyfang Dagger and you add another +36 if you hit, or +45 if wielded 2-handed.
You can see that the Manyfang Dagger's contribution to damage dwarfs that from class features. That item is better than 20 levels of sneak attack from a Rogue, and 20 levels of rage from a Barbarian. As soon as you qualify for Craven (a 1-level Rogue dip) you've got most of the multipliable static bonus. At that point you might as well be a full spellcaster to add other non-dice damage bonuses to get multiplied by the Manyfang Dagger.
Any single item which obsoletes whole classes deserves to be on the list.
Last edited by Curmudgeon : 07-10-2012 at 08:05 PM.
Reason: typo
Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
I know the one I was pointing out was form one of the later/less commonly used books. I think it was one of the later Monster Manuals/setting specific supplements. I've never actually looked at it though, just seen it sited on forums.
Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRC
This is more of a personal pet peeve than anything truly broken, but Legion of Sentinels in PHB2. I had a player who was very fond of this spell, which is very difficult to use because nowhere does the spell description actually give stats for the sentinels. The Short description in the Spell List gives their damage, but IIRC the long description, usually very thorough, dosn't tell the DM what exactly to do.
I believe that this is cleared up in the PHB2 errata.
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Originally Posted by PHB2 Errata
Page 116 – Legion of Sentinels
[Omission]
Should include the following text at the end of its
description: “The swordsmen’s attacks are at a
bonus equal to your caster level, they threaten
critical hits on a 19 or 20, and they deal 1d8 points
of slashing damage with a +1 bonus per three caster
levels (max +5). They only make attacks of
opportunity, and their weapon damage is slashing
and is affected by damage reduction.”
They do a small amount of damage, but they only make AoO and no regular attacks.
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Curmudgeon's from the FUTURE!
