LGBTAitP Part 25: Doing away with titles

Mystic Muse · 07-10-2012, 01:18 AM

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the thread for the discussion, celebration and support of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Asexual, Allied, and Queer individuals!

Here's the in-thread rules!

No adult sexual content. It's against site rules.
Let's keep things as A-political as possible.
Similarly, try to leave religion out of it.
NO discussing if LGBTAetc. is "good" or "right" for the above reasons, mostly.
Everyone is welcome. L, G, B,T, A, Q, A, N, V, P, R, Q, Ω, ♅, everyone. As long as they behave themselves.

If you have a question or two about LGBTA+, you can ask it here! You can ask for advice and support in here.

In addition, many members are willing to give private advice one on one, either through email or PM. The best ways to do this are initiating the PM, or asking for PM help in thread.

Previous threads, because archives are important.

Spoiler

And the community's previously posted list of Thousand&Wordster Dictionary of Commonly Used LGBTAitP Words and Phrases, originally scribed by AThousandWords (now Qaera) and added to thereafter.

Spoiler

golentan · 07-10-2012, 02:04 AM

Hey, the subtitle's gone.

Anyway, yeah. Khaos Komix. It updates to slowly, and I want to see charlie be happy.

Also aggression, violence and romance seem to be getting tied up in my mind and I want a demonic invasion or zombie apocalypse to happen so I can go murder crazy as the purest expression of myself without feeling guilty, and this feeling is strengthened by the presence of my beloved and sappy love songs I've been listening to/romance I've been reading. help?

Mystic Muse · 07-10-2012, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by golentan

Hey, the subtitle's gone.

I couldn't think of anything. Any suggestions and I'll be glad to put them up.

Triscuitable · 07-10-2012, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystic Muse

I couldn't think of anything. Any suggestions and I'll be glad to put them up.

Lagerbeta 25: Mystic Muse isn't very clever

lsfreak · 07-10-2012, 02:40 AM

So as much as I like to avoid labels, I'm also a scientist at heart and love classifying. What is the prefix for someone primarily attracted to or interesting in "men" or "women," regardless of the body? Would it just be hetero-/homo-? It seems like with the bi-/pan- and andro-/gyno- distinction, there should be something similar to emphasize that the gender expression or identity is central to the person. But I have no idea what it would be.

turkishproverb · 07-10-2012, 02:43 AM

xxosexual and xyosexual?

Triscuitable · 07-10-2012, 02:44 AM

Well, this is a good question. Regardless of the body, I believe that would be bisexual. If it were heterosexual (regardless of whether or not the person was trans), this would remain heterosexuality. The trans person is the gender they identify as, not their body.

If we get into the really confusing stuff, a straight person that is bigender could be straight/lesbian at the same time, or straight/gay.

Is that what you're referring to?

Quote:

Originally Posted by turkishproverb

xxosexual and xyosexual?

You see, my problem with that is that nobody who isn't constantly researching pronouns will recognize that. Think about it: ask a random person what a demisexual is. Pansexuals, people may recognize. Bisexuals, of course. But with ridiculous names like that (pots and pansexuals

), you're asking for some confusion.

lsfreak · 07-10-2012, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triscuitable

Well, this is a good question. Regardless of the body, I believe that would be bisexual. If it were heterosexual (regardless of whether or not the person was trans), this would remain heterosexuality. The trans person is the gender they identify as, not their body.

If we get into the really confusing stuff, a straight person that is bigender could be straight/lesbian at the same time, or straight/gay.

Is that what you're referring to?

Okay, for clarification, I have in the past identified as someone who is interested in men, whether that's cismale, transmen, presented masculine, etc. I have no idea what the term there would be; I very tentatively used androromantic with a huge asterisk and explanation of what I meant, just because the term would likely be unknown and someone would have to pay attention to what I described, even though andro- intuitively points towards the physical.

[I've since not done that, because a) it's confusing b) non-cis people are confusing. There's no patterns! I can't make generalizations about who I'm interested in! I have to treat people like individuals!

]

Asta Kask · 07-10-2012, 04:03 AM

I went with sanskrit jusr for the hell of it. "Naraharshal" means "manlover" and "Tanviharshal" means "womanlover." Go crazy with it.

Astrella · 07-10-2012, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lsfreak

So as much as I like to avoid labels, I'm also a scientist at heart and love classifying. What is the prefix for someone primarily attracted to or interesting in "men" or "women," regardless of the body? Would it just be hetero-/homo-? It seems like with the bi-/pan- and andro-/gyno- distinction, there should be something similar to emphasize that the gender expression or identity is central to the person. But I have no idea what it would be.

Just andro- / gynosexual? Orientation generally applies to gender, not sex.

TentacleGirl · 07-10-2012, 04:51 AM

Anyone have resources for finding informed consent clinics in the American South?

Arachu · 07-10-2012, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by golentan

Also aggression, violence and romance seem to be getting tied up in my mind and I want a demonic invasion or zombie apocalypse to happen so I can go murder crazy as the purest expression of myself without feeling guilty, and this feeling is strengthened by the presence of my beloved and sappy love songs I've been listening to/romance I've been reading. help?

*Hugs!*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

I went with sanskrit jusr for the hell of it. "Naraharshal" means "manlover" and "Tanviharshal" means "womanlover." Go crazy with it.

... Those are the best words I've ever heard to describe anything ever. @.@

~Bianca

Serafina · 07-10-2012, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turkishproverb

xxosexual and xyosexual?

That only works if you want to say "i am only attracted to people with a XX- or XY chromosome phenotype".

Which is rather unlikely - not only do chromosomes not necessarily determine ones body (look up intersexuality), but they certainly don't define ones gender.

I would actually use hetero- or homosexual here, or, if you want to find a term that does not include the users gender, then a term like Andro-personality-sexual (replace personality with a proper greek term for it) would work.

Why would i use that? Because i am personally only attracted to women - people who self-identify as such. That's regardless of their transition-status, my last girlfriend was a transwoman pre-transition. And i had no problem jumping into bed with her, or being sexually attracted to her, despite male body, clothing (though THAT wasn't a factor for long

) and so on.
Men, on the other hand, including trans-men, do nothing for me, no matter how feminine they may look.

Put simply: if someone has a female self-identity, i can be attracted to her. If someone ha a male self-identity, i can't be attracted to him.
Actual looks, personality etc. of course play a role, but only after that criteria is clear.

Then again, i am pretty much trans-blind - if i KNOW how someone self-identifies, i will overlook most factors that are contrary to that self-identification.

Alcopop · 07-10-2012, 07:43 AM

Hey.

I've been meaning to post here for awhile but idk I just usually delete what I write.

I'm MtF trans but also 6ft7 and have fairly strong male features (some might say dashing even) and a pretty deep voice.

I was born with a deformity of the bottom lip and until I had surgery in early high-school my childhood was nightmarish whirlwind of low self-esteem and sever bullying. so p ****.

So I feel my height and maleness are stopping me from even considering transition and even if I could transition I couldn't deal with negative attention that would come from basically being the least convincing woman ever. I'm not strong enough to deal with that twice.

ugh. idk why i'm even posting this, there is literally no answer to my problems. venting I guess.

I mean I'm doing okay my life is pretty alright but sometimes this pressure builds and I feel so ****ing helpless.

peace.

Rawhide · 07-10-2012, 08:09 AM

There, I fixed the title.

Keveak · 07-10-2012, 08:13 AM

@Kender Last Thread: Yay! I did something right again! ^_^

Quote:

Originally Posted by golentan

Also aggression, violence and romance seem to be getting tied up in my mind and I want a demonic invasion or zombie apocalypse to happen so I can go murder crazy as the purest expression of myself without feeling guilty, and this feeling is strengthened by the presence of my beloved and sappy love songs I've been listening to/romance I've been reading. help?

*Hugs*

You could try playing zombie apocapypse/Evil-peeps invasion style games, would that count as going murder crazy? ^_^'

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystic Muse

I couldn't think of anything. Any suggestions and I'll be glad to put them up.

How about:

- LGBTAitP: 25% more letters!

That one is actually true compared to the LGBT standard! ^_^

- LGBTAitP 25: Don we now our queer apparel!

- LGBTAitP 25: Fa la la la la la la la la.

Because American Yuletide is on the 25th! ^_^'

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alcopop

Hey.

I've been meaning to post here for awhile but idk I just usually delete what I write.

I'm MtF trans but also 6ft7 and have fairly strong male features (some might say dashing even) and a pretty deep voice.

I was born with a deformity of the bottom lip and until I had surgery in early high-school my childhood was nightmarish whirlwind of low self-esteem and sever bullying. so p ****.

So I feel my height and maleness are stopping me from even considering transition and even if I could transition I couldn't deal with negative attention that would come from basically being the least convincing woman ever. I'm not strong enough to deal with that twice.

ugh. idk why i'm even posting this, there is literally no answer to my problems. venting I guess.

I mean I'm doing okay my life is pretty alright but sometimes this pressure builds and I feel so ****ing helpless.

peace.

Do not feel bad about venting and asking for help, it is what we are here for!

I do not myself have much advice, but maybe it would help to present as female online and in some settings? Even if you are prevented from fully transitioning, it might be relieving to be who you are wherever you can.

blackfox · 07-10-2012, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TentacleGirl

Anyone have resources for finding informed consent clinics in the American South?

This is pretty recent.

noparlpf · 07-10-2012, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

I went with sanskrit jusr for the hell of it. "Naraharshal" means "manlover" and "Tanviharshal" means "womanlover." Go crazy with it.

Those are pretty excellent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astrella

Just andro- / gynosexual? Orientation generally applies to gender, not sex.

Hey, I was gonna say that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alcopop

Hey.

I've been meaning to post here for awhile but idk I just usually delete what I write.

I'm MtF trans but also 6ft7 and have fairly strong male features (some might say dashing even) and a pretty deep voice.

I was born with a deformity of the bottom lip and until I had surgery in early high-school my childhood was nightmarish whirlwind of low self-esteem and sever bullying. so p ****.

So I feel my height and maleness are stopping me from even considering transition and even if I could transition I couldn't deal with negative attention that would come from basically being the least convincing woman ever. I'm not strong enough to deal with that twice.

ugh. idk why i'm even posting this, there is literally no answer to my problems. venting I guess.

I mean I'm doing okay my life is pretty alright but sometimes this pressure builds and I feel so ****ing helpless.

peace.

Welcome in and don't feel bad for venting. I don't think you should be too worried about transitioning. HRT does some impressive things for appearance, and when you're that tall, you stand out whether you're male or female. Back in high school I knew a family of giants, and I think both the mother and sister were taller than one of the boys.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rawhide

There, I fixed the title.

Heh, I like it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KenderWizard

Also a stereotype, but I would argue a less harmful one. It's also appealing to men, it's a power-fantasy, not a sexy-fantasy for women to look at these characters.

Let's see if I've got this quoting across threads thing right.
Anyway, yeah, both types of caricatures are created by men and for men, which is the problem, I suppose. The entire social mentality of "women are just eye candy". But I think pointing that out could be done a bit better than this videogame critique thing what's-her-face was doing.

Alcopop · 07-10-2012, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keveak

I do not myself have much advice, but maybe it would help to present as female online and in some settings? Even if you are prevented from fully transitioning, it might be relieving to be who you are wherever you can.

I've thought about this, but wouldn't it be somewhat disingenuous?

Astrella · 07-10-2012, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noparlpf

Let's see if I've got this quoting across threads thing right.
Anyway, yeah, both types of caricatures are created by men and for men, which is the problem, I suppose. The entire social mentality of "women are just eye candy". But I think pointing that out could be done a bit better than this videogame critique thing what's-her-face was doing.

I was under the impression that she still needed to do her actual research though?

Quote:

Originally Posted by golentan

Hey, the subtitle's gone.

Anyway, yeah. Khaos Komix. It updates to slowly, and I want to see charlie be happy.

Also aggression, violence and romance seem to be getting tied up in my mind and I want a demonic invasion or zombie apocalypse to happen so I can go murder crazy as the purest expression of myself without feeling guilty, and this feeling is strengthened by the presence of my beloved and sappy love songs I've been listening to/romance I've been reading. help?

*offers hugs*
(You can pm me if you'd like to talk in more detail?)

Also I should get round to reading Khaos Komix sometime.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alcopop

Hey.

I've been meaning to post here for awhile but idk I just usually delete what I write.

I'm MtF trans but also 6ft7 and have fairly strong male features (some might say dashing even) and a pretty deep voice.

I was born with a deformity of the bottom lip and until I had surgery in early high-school my childhood was nightmarish whirlwind of low self-esteem and sever bullying. so p ****.

So I feel my height and maleness are stopping me from even considering transition and even if I could transition I couldn't deal with negative attention that would come from basically being the least convincing woman ever. I'm not strong enough to deal with that twice.

ugh. idk why i'm even posting this, there is literally no answer to my problems. venting I guess.

I mean I'm doing okay my life is pretty alright but sometimes this pressure builds and I feel so ****ing helpless.

peace.

Hi,

as said by other peeps already; just experimenting with presentation and pronouns and such whether offline or online might be worth looking into?

Also, since height is something I fuss about a lot myself, this might be an interesting link.

Serafina · 07-10-2012, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alcopop

I've thought about this, but wouldn't it be somewhat disingenuous?

Nope. You are a woman*, so how would telling people you are a woman be in any way disingenuous?
In fact, i'd say that telling people that you are male is deceiving them, since you are not

*Assuming that you are certain of your own identity already. If you are still uncertain, then anything you tell people is either correct or an honest mistake, not deliberate misguidance.

As for starting transition:
We all do it step by step. My first steps consisted of outing myself to my closest, most tolerant friends and then hanging around them in "female-mode". For others that step was done in trans-support-groups (which i never attended long personally, but thats just me). Eventually you'll get more secure, your body-language will become more feminine and so on.

As for voice: How deep or high the pitch of your voice is has actually little to do with how male or female it sounds. It's much more about how you form the sounds, how you intone them and the pattern of your voice than about it's pitch. My voice therapist can actually speak with a much deeper voice than i ever had, yet still sound completely female.
So while having a deep voice is certainly a hurdle, it's not an insurmountable obstacle.

noparlpf · 07-10-2012, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astrella

I was under the impression that she still needed to do her actual research though?

Yeah, that might help a bit. Maybe all the criticism of her is because she hasn't actually researched her claims?

Asta Kask · 07-10-2012, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noparlpf

Those are pretty excellent.

Note, I am not a Sanskrit scholar by any standards. These words were the result of some searching in an online dictionary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alcopop

I've thought about this, but wouldn't it be somewhat disingenuous?

No. It's no more disingenuous than any trans woman putting putting on female clothes. It is not done deceptively, it is done to show who you really are. It is being true to yourself. If that's wrong I don't want to be right.

Edit: Also, you're a very good artist. I like your work.

Astrella · 07-10-2012, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noparlpf

Yeah, that might help a bit. Maybe all the criticism of her is because she hasn't actually researched her claims?

As far as I'm aware she's made several videos on topics related to female portrayal in gaming and those are perfectly open to being criticized. But in the end it doesn't really matter how good her research is; the main problem that's indicative of just how vile the gaming community can get is the utter amount of abuse, threats and harassment she got because she had the gall to be a woman who wanted to look into this.

Hrmm, I guess I'm just a bit bothered by that fact that discussion shifted rather quickly to the contents of her work rather than focusing on the horrible bigotry rife in the gaming community.

(And there might be issues with her current stuff that's out there (I haven't seen any of her videos.), but I'm not going to judge the kickstarter project before I've seen the actual product (which as far as I'm aware of she hasn't started on / is only just starting on.))

I need to cut down on the parentheses.

blackfox · 07-10-2012, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alcopop

I've thought about this, but wouldn't it be somewhat disingenuous?

Nah. I'd consider it to be more disingenuous for you to present as male, seeing as you identify as a woman.

Mystic Muse · 07-10-2012, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triscuitable

Lagerbeta 25: Mystic Muse isn't very clever

It was 2:20 AM, give me a break.

noparlpf · 07-10-2012, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astrella

As far as I'm aware she's made several videos on topics related to female portrayal in gaming and those are perfectly open to being criticized. But in the end it doesn't really matter how good her research is; the main problem that's indicative of just how vile the gaming community can get is the utter amount of abuse, threats and harassment she got because she had the gall to be a woman who wanted to look into this.

Hrmm, I guess I'm just a bit bothered by that fact that discussion shifted rather quickly to the contents of her work rather than focusing on the horrible bigotry rife in the gaming community.

(And there might be issues with her current stuff that's out there (I haven't seen any of her videos.), but I'm not going to judge the kickstarter project before I've seen the actual product (which as far as I'm aware of she hasn't started on / is only just starting on.))

I need to cut down on the parentheses.

Oh yeah, I forgot about all that. Hmm. Well I think there are two issues here. One, sexism inherent in fiction. Two, a ****ed-up culture in which harassment and threats are "okay".

Keveak · 07-10-2012, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alcopop

I've thought about this, but wouldn't it be somewhat disingenuous?

Nope! You yourself described yourself as mtf, so that would mean you are a woman. I doubt anyone thinks it disingenuous to play characters that look more typically feminine than yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by noparlpf

Yeah, that might help a bit. Maybe all the criticism of her is because she hasn't actually researched her claims?

That is the criticism, but it appears very out of place. The article gave detailed explanations in response to claims beginning with: "This week I've started playing Gravity Rush and I'm really loving it, though I have to say it’s a little ridiculous that our hero Kat...". Is it just me who finds it weird that this statement was taken as evidence that Sarkeesian is misguided? Because Sarkeesian did not play the entire game and research it before using it as an off-hand example previous to the actual project? O_o

I understand fully that the writer wished to point out errors in the examples, but it sounds a bit like they are taken as proof of Sarkeesian being wrong about sexism in video games. Am I just being crazier than usual? @_@

Also, it might be miscommunication. Sarkeesian keeps mentioning the games as good and has earlier done the same about movies failing the Bechdel test. The point from Sarkeesian is about how stereotypes are too common, while the response is about how individual examples are justified. ^_^'

Sorry for ranting again. m(_ _)m

EDIT: Also sorry for not talking about the horrifying threats and harassment, but I can only whimper at it. It scares me and makes me want to hug Sarkeesian. ;_;

I thought I might do better trying to deal with productive criticism, sorry if it seemed insensitive. m(_ _)m

Rawhide · 07-10-2012, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alcopop

I've thought about this, but wouldn't it be somewhat disingenuous?

There's always the male to female icon if you wish to show your physical sex and mental gender in the icon field (which is just one way it's used).

Astrella · 07-10-2012, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rawhide

There's always the male to female icon if you wish to show your physical sex and mental gender in the icon field (which is just one way it's used).

I think it might be preferable to use assigned sex instead of physical sex.