Light of Amber - Series One

[Serafina]

I knew that editing didn't work, but not that previewing screwed it up as well. Thanks for that!

[Owrtho]

Originally Posted by Serafina

I knew that editing didn't work, but not that previewing screwed it up as well. Thanks for that!

No problem. I had trouble with that when I first started trying to use the dice roller as well due to similarly previewing everything out of habit.

Owrtho

[TraceHyde]

The Neverwere don't seem to be charging anyone. You may want to go on the offensive and hit them really har before they eat out predecessors - it seems to be working out for me so far.

[Serafina]

Well even if they just take a move+standard action my readied action still works, just without double damage.

[TraceHyde]

Selinia, did you just roll 114 damage with a normal atack with a level 7 character? HOW!? I thought I was going to be a decent melee specialist but DAMN, what sort of fast one are you pulling here? I mean, damn, that damage is nearly TWICE my HP total

[Snowfire]

Originally Posted by Selinia

Don't have a ton of time (and probably won't be able to access a computer again until tomorrow evening), but I managed to squeak in an IC post. Feels a little sparse for a first post, but time is time and all.

By my understanding, we all get a surprise round, right? These things are totally ignoring us until they get directly hit in the face, which is about as 'flat-footed' as you can get.

In other news, I need to figure out some better language to describe Makoto's lance. It's a rather intricate piece of equipment, and I'm not remotely doing it justice in text.

Yes, you are all getting a surprise round here. To the Neverwere, you're not threats. Well, ok, Umiko and Makoto are after their attacks, but hey. And descriptions are annoying that way, especially for weapons.

Originally Posted by Owrtho

Might I request something of a makeshift placement map? One way I've seen it done in play by post games is just using a publicly viewable google docs spreadsheet as a grid and labelling the squares with players or monsters.

I'll see what I can do and get back to you. Thanks for the suggestion however.

Originally Posted by Owrtho

Just a minor note. Her name is Daina, not Diana. The former is a name meaning song in Lithuanian and Latvian, while the latter has Indo-European roots meaning heavenly or divine, and is the name of a Roman goddess.

Understood. My apologies for the mix up on my part.

Originally Posted by Owrtho

So, if we aren't yet in combat, do we not need to spend our move action to stand?

Correct.

Originally Posted by TraceHyde

The Neverwere don't seem to be charging anyone. You may want to go on the offensive and hit them really har before they eat out predecessors - it seems to be working out for me so far.

And correct here again. The Neverwere are going after the Pentacle in front of you. The two that just got attacked are beginning to react to those attacks, but the rest seem to be ignoring it. You aren't a threat to them. All actual threats in the city have been neutralised as far as they're aware.

[Serafina]

So they are not moving anywhere at all? Hmm, looks like my tactic doesn't work then.

Also, we only get a Standard-action in the surprise round anyway - wouldn't that prevent us from charging? Which (in addition to RP-concerns) is why i was readying an action.

[Snowfire]

Originally Posted by TraceHyde

Selinia, did you just roll 114 damage with a normal atack with a level 7 character? HOW!? I thought I was going to be a decent melee specialist but DAMN, what sort of fast one are you pulling here? I mean, damn, that damage is nearly TWICE my HP total

Ah, that I can explain.

Ok, first off the +31 to damage. Leap attack means that her power attack bonus gets tripled when she makes a jumping charge. Battle Jump then doubles her entire damage total.

Her lance of Vaulting (respecced Halberd of Vaulting) gives another x2 on a jump charge. Due to the way that Pathfinder and D&D work those sort of things, it turns the two x2s into a x3.

So base damage of 38 - about normal for a charging power attack with a feat here and there. Vital strike could do that.

The real nasty trick here is the the triple damage via her method of attack. It's a one trick pony, and one that requires the ability to charge, but it's also utterly lethal when it works.

Originally Posted by Serafina

So they are not moving anywhere at all? Hmm, looks like my tactic doesn't work then.

Also, we only get a Standard-action in the surprise round anyway - wouldn't that prevent us from charging? Which (in addition to RP-concerns) is why i was readying an action.

They're moving yes, but in the opposite direction. And...holy hell, how did I miss that *facepalms*.

Ok then, surprise round isn't quite correct then. You have a full round - when you choose to draw attention to yourself - to do what you please in regards to brutally murdering these things. Until you make yourself a threat - like what Umiko and Makoto just did - you're nothing to these things.

[TraceHyde]

Read over Selinia's character sheet. Triple PA bonus on a charge thanks to Leap Attack, whose maths I'm quite certain was based around assumptions of what power attack would do in bonus damage in previous editions, and somehow you got abilities into your spear to deal double damage each on a charge and a jump charge. HOW did you do that exactly? Don't you think that's a bit much damage. I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to deal a crapload of damage - every party needs its striker - but even then that's just too much for a regular hit.

Proposed Fix
-Leap Attack follows the general trend of Pathfinder's maths and instead doubles the power attack damage (minor)
-Only use the doble on jump-charge, not double on charge enhancement.

Speaking of I seriously want to know wher eyou got that enhancement so I can steal it.

Edit: Ninja'd. But being able to charge isn't that rare an event unless you specifically design enemies that inflict Fatigue or build very high walls between the heroes and villains. Admittedly, that could be a good twist to add to combat, but I'm just saying I've MADE characters before that could deal an ungodly amount of damage; Alchemist 11 is pretty easy to break. It's actually pretty boring to kill things tat fast sometimes. Grante dyou don't want to be wasting time on minor enemies, but that's villain-smiting damage there.

[Owrtho]

Originally Posted by Serafina

Also, we only get a Standard-action in the surprise round anyway - wouldn't that prevent us from charging? Which (in addition to RP-concerns) is why i was readying an action.

Originally Posted by d20pfsrd

If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.

This is the last paragraph of the Movement During a Charge section. So no, surprise round wouldn't prevent you from charging.

Owrtho

[Serafina]

Ah, forgot about that.

*sigh* Now i have the problem that Cymoril really isn't the kind of person that'll charge head-along into combat against an unknown foe, especially when she has other stuff on her mind right now. Defending herself or others that are being attacked comes instinctively though, which was the other main reason i picked this course of action.
But since i pretty much HAVE to charge in that situation if i want to contribute, i guess i'll have to figure something out.

[Snowfire]

Originally Posted by TraceHyde

Read over Selinia's character sheet. Triple PA bonus on a charge thanks to Leap Attack, whose maths I'm quite certain was based around assumptions of what power attack would do in bonus damage in previous editions, and somehow you got abilities into your spear to deal double damage each on a charge and a jump charge. HOW did you do that exactly? Don't you think that's a bit much damage. I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to deal a crapload of damage - every party needs its striker - but even then that's just too much for a regular hit.

Proposed Fix
-Leap Attack follows the general trend of Pathfinder's maths and instead doubles the power attack damage (minor)
-Only use the doble on jump-charge, not double on charge enhancement.

Speaking of I seriously want to know wher eyou got that enhancement so I can steal it.

Edit: Ninja'd. But being able to charge isn't that rare an event unless you specifically design enemies that inflict Fatigue or build very high walls between the heroes and villains. Admittedly, that could be a good twist to add to combat, but I'm just saying I've MADE characters before that could deal an ungodly amount of damage; Alchemist 11 is pretty easy to break. It's actually pretty boring to kill things tat fast sometimes. Granted you don't want to be wasting time on minor enemies, but that's villain-smiting damage there.

The thing is, a level 7 Pathfinder fighter or barbarian could pull off that much damage - or close to it - with the right setup - like what Makoto has got. A level 7 Gunslinger can actually breach that level of damage relatively easily - don't ask, I'm not telling. One DMG to the face was enough.

And the double on charge bit isn't an enhancement. It's the normal effect of a lance when used from a charging mount. That isn't happening here, so it's x3 instead of x4 damage.

Selinia built Makoto as a pure striker. And here's the thing. Pure strikers stop being so effective as you get further into the levels. Tons of damage is nice, yeah, but what if you're up against something that's immune/massively resistant to piercing damage? Or regenerates. Or has a miss chance. There are so many ways to screw over single-attack strikers that it isn't even funny.

And most of them will not even be a minor inconvenience to the rest of you.

[Snowfire]

Originally Posted by Serafina

Ah, forgot about that.

*sigh* Now i have the problem that Cymoril really isn't the kind of person that'll charge head-along into combat against an unknown foe, especially when she has other stuff on her mind right now. Defending herself or others that are being attacked comes instinctively though, which was the other main reason i picked this course of action.
But since i pretty much HAVE to charge in that situation if i want to contribute, i guess i'll have to figure something out.

Or you can hold back, try to figure out what the hell is going on, and jump in later. I'm not going to force you to dive head first into combat here. But you can if you want to.

[Serafina]

Okay, so i really can't think of any in-character way for Cymoril to attack straight away. Yeah, one side is clearly human and the other clearly non-human and seemingly the bad guys, but she's not gonna hold that against them. Also, she's really more concerned with getting home.

Thus, new tactic:
I'll use Homing Shot now and withhold three shots (that wastes one of them, but eh). That way i profit at least somewhat from the surprise round, without taking any offensive actions for now.

[Snowfire]

Originally Posted by Serafina

Okay, so i really can't think of any in-character way for Cymoril to attack straight away. Yeah, one side is clearly human and the other clearly non-human and seemingly the bad guys, but she's not gonna hold that against them. Also, she's really more concerned with getting home.

Thus, new tactic:
I'll use Homing Shot now and withhold three shots (that wastes one of them, but eh). That way i profit at least somewhat from the surprise round, without taking any offensive actions for now.

Absolutely fine with me. It's your character and I didn't meant to force you straight on to the offensive.

[TraceHyde]

Though if I might make a recommendation if you can't think of offensive actions for the next round, at least move to position yourself between a neverwere and a pentacle and let the fight come to you as a defender.

I'm pretty sure I won initiative. I'm pretty sure Two Weapon Fighting works with my unarmed strikes right? Otherwise, tell me now so I can trade it out.

But if, by your own admission the doubling from mounted charge isn't in effect, how'd she get up to triple damage? As a science student, I rarely find myself saying this but, the maths here is preposterously hard to follow.

I make a habit of never feeling entirely comfortable working on the same team as someone who could instantly end me if they were so inclined. I mean granted we're all on the same side and Magical Girls have high Will Saves but still. I'm supposed to be the tank and I can't take half that damage! I'm one well placed Silent Image away from being instantly impaled by a trigger happy party member.

And I think the power attack maths went wrong somewhere. I mean the thing is dead either way, but still!

[Owrtho]

That pm was amazingly well done. Well worth the wait. Anyway, as I type up my first post to have Daina join the fray, I figured I'd check on something that I'd realized moments ago. The mention that we were all face down on the ground, and the mention of the dirtiness and debris from the fight made me realize that Daina is at present without a way to easily take care of her outfit. How much would you price an item at that allowed unlimited (or a few times daily) use of prestidigitation, but only for the purposes of cleaning clothing and possibly one's self (the colour changing bit might be handy for dying her hair, but would really need unlimited daily use then, and given her blindness isn't overly important)? Provided it isn't more than 500g, I may make a minor change from a magical bedroll to that, and just get a normal bedroll and some blankets.
Anyway, I have a post to type up.

Owrtho

[Serafina]

By RAW a Use-activated held Item with a 0th-level spell costs 0.5x1x2000=1000 GP. Adding that function to another item increases the cost by 1.5 to 1500, and making it entirely slotless increases the cost by 2 to 2000 GP.

Since you can only use the item under specific circumstances/for a specific function, you can halve the cost to 500/750/1000.
You can further lower that by requiring a specific class feature for the item (such as Device or Illuminations) you could lower the cost by 1/4th ti 1/2, for 250-375/375-563/500-750.

Of course the call is up to Snowfire, as with all costum-designed magic items. If its allowed and fits into my budget, i would take it too though.

[Snowfire]

Originally Posted by TraceHyde

Though if I might make a recommendation if you can't think of offensive actions for the next round, at least move to position yourself between a neverwere and a pentacle and let the fight come to you as a defender.

I'm pretty sure I won initiative. I'm pretty sure Two Weapon Fighting works with my unarmed strikes right? Otherwise, tell me now so I can trade it out.

But if, by your own admission the doubling from mounted charge isn't in effect, how'd she get up to triple damage? As a science student, I rarely find myself saying this but, the maths here is preposterously hard to follow.

I make a habit of never feeling entirely comfortable working on the same team as someone who could instantly end me if they were so inclined. I mean granted we're all on the same side and Magical Girls have high Will Saves but still. I'm supposed to be the tank and I can't take half that damage! I'm one well placed Silent Image away from being instantly impaled by a trigger happy party member.

And I think the power attack maths went wrong somewhere. I mean the thing is dead either way, but still!

TWF works, yes.

And triple damage comes from Battle Jump. She was coming down on her opponent from a jump. That gave her a x2. Then the Lance of Vaulting "x2 on a jump-charge" kicked in and pushed it to x3. A mounted charge would push it to x4. And yes, she has a way to do that.

Power attack damage is 6 - tripled to 18 here - because it's a two handed weapon she's using and that matter for PF power attack.

That adds on to the +13 that Selinia explained further up. And then you add the 1d8 and triple. Even if I drop Leap Attack to doubling, that's only going to drop 18 damage off of her total - making it 96 damage instead of 114.

And at this level, you're generally fully capable of ending the others around you relatively easily. It's just a matter of setting it up right. And there are remarkably easy ways to screw over Makoto's level of damage. You can't pull off quite the same level, but with TWF and a few other things you should be able to get to the point where you're at least close. And your damage will be coming in as multiple attacks. Yes, that means DR is nastier to you and that you might not hit with everything. But you'll have a much higher chance to do damage every round than Makoto. If she misses, that's it. If you miss, well that's one attack out of several.

I'm sorry if this seems to be a problem, but coming right down to the heart of this, damage isn't as important as a lot of people think. Then again, that is coming from someone who has seen 70d6+105 from a level...I think it was level 10 character.

Yeah, some of the people I know can do surprisingly horrible things to the PF/3.5 system by accident (no sarcasm).

[Snowfire]

Originally Posted by Owrtho

That pm was amazingly well done. Well worth the wait. Anyway, as I type up my first post to have Daina join the fray, I figured I'd check on something that I'd realized moments ago. The mention that we were all face down on the ground, and the mention of the dirtiness and debris from the fight made me realize that Daina is at present without a way to easily take care of her outfit. How much would you price an item at that allowed unlimited (or a few times daily) use of prestidigitation, but only for the purposes of cleaning clothing and possibly one's self (the colour changing bit might be handy for dying her hair, but would really need unlimited daily use then, and given her blindness isn't overly important)? Provided it isn't more than 500g, I may make a minor change from a magical bedroll to that, and just get a normal bedroll and some blankets.
Anyway, I have a post to type up.

Owrtho

Thank you for the praise, I'm glad that I got three out of five right (Selinia kinda wrote her own based off of the one I sent her and some other stuff).

On the subject of a bracelet of laundromat...

Originally Posted by Serafina

Snip

Basically that. And all things considered...I'll let it through for 250gp. It can only clean clothing and make the minor changes to a person that prestidigitation can do by RAW. That work?

[Owrtho]

Originally Posted by Snowfire

Basically that. And all things considered...I'll let it through for 250gp. It can only clean clothing and make the minor changes to a person that prestidigitation can do by RAW. That work?

That will work quite well. It will be a shame for her to loose her extra comfy bedroll, but clean cloths are more important. Not sure if I ever got around to explicitly mentioning it, but having been raised in a wealthier household, she isn't quite used to not having access to some of the finer things.

Also something that may be worth noting is that she is somewhat self-concious of her disabilities, and will try to hide them. That is however motivated mainly by a desire to be treated equally, which she found most people didn't do when they knew that she was blind and mute (though she isn't as concerned about the mute part).

Having now posted though, those d20 rolls were terrible... Ah well, at least the damage rolls turned out alright, and by the way the thundering is only on a critical hit, which I didn't get in either case.

Owrtho

[TraceHyde]

Well, if we're going to get technical here, behold...

http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-ad...-attack--1741/

It doubles on a charge, I get that. But the bit about it tripling the power attack bonus to damage is a bit of a misinterpretation. Rather, in 3.5 since Power Attacking with a two handed weapon doubled the PA bonus, the feat mentioning its tripling is just clarifying that the rule that two doublings equals a tripling. In other words, it doesn't actually triple the damage, it just means that its doubling stacks. You know? So in other words teh maths should be this.

+4 damage from PA base (due to BAB +5). +50% for the two handed stat, plus 100% for leap attack, for a total of 250% of the base bonus to damage. In other words, the damage could be
-2 attack/+10 damage in a leaping charge.

Then there's that feat that only activates when charged from above I think, right? So (1d10+20)x2 (average 50 damage) with a leap or (1d10+20)x3 with the right set up (i.e. you'd have to get higher up to jump on top of a big opponent - maybe I could invent a teamwork feat to throw you!). Might I also recommend the Pathfinder feat Death From Above

Sorry about Maths-Gimping you here, Selinia, I'm just very just-so that way (anal retentive, I believe the phrase is)

[Snowfire]

Originally Posted by D&Dtools

If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.

She's using a lance, remember.

[TraceHyde]

But I just addressed that! I said that the tripling is not supposed to be an explicit effect of the feat, rather it's a confirmation of the stacking rules and the PA function as of 3.5!

In 3.5:
PA with Leap Attack = +100% damage
PA with two handed weapon= +100% damage
.*. PA with leap attack and two handed weapon = +300%
OR PA above total is 300% damage, so triple in total of the power attack bonus to damage

In Pathfinder
PA with two handed weapon = +50% damage
PA with leap attack = +100% damage
So 150%, or rather 1.5*(base bonus damage from PA [4])

It certainly shouldn't be taken into second order as it was with that atack. The damage there was 18, i.e.
(1.5*PA for two handed)*Triple, totalling for +450% damage for no earthly reason. I mean it is further compounded by the tripled damage for a total bonus just from PA of +1350% of the four points it would normally add, by going into a third order of multiplication. I can accept that third order, it adds a certain coolness to things, but the Leap Attack maths is seriously off and should stack, not multiply with two handed the way it does. She's not charging on horseback so I only assume the thing you're bringing up teh lance for is its status as two handed but... ugh.... so much maths...

[TraceHyde]

Ah, why do I do this to myself, it's my summer holidays, I shouldn't have to dedicate this much thought to maths...

[Serafina]

Well it looks like your math is in order here, and that's how i'd interpret the feat as well.

So each +2 damage from PA become +5, instead of +8.

Then the damage total gets multiplied by two because if shes charging with a lance while mounted.
OR it gets multiplied by three when she makes a Battlejump (not usable while flying by the way), due to Battlejump and her Lance of Vaulting.

She rolled a 7 for damage.
Her PA is -2, which gives her +10 to damage.
She gets +6 from her Strenght (4x1.5 due to two-handed)
And another +1 from Enhancement bonus.
No idea about her costume, but IIRC it isn't active anyway. At most it's +6 from Oversized

Without costume, that's a total of 7+10+6+1=24 damage. That gets tripled to 72.
Still very very ouchy, but quite a bit off from 114, ne?

[Snowfire]

Ok. Trace, you have made your point regarding the 3.5/PF power attack differences. Thank you.

As stated further up, her costume is inactive, her device is not. Therefore the +6 from Oversized does factor.

So you have 7+6+6+1+10 = 30

Ninety damage.

Ok?

[Serafina]

Ah, right, forgot that device-qualities are active. So yes, 90 damage then.

[Selinia]

Ah. I'd done some research on jump-attacking and dragoon builds, and they almost all treated leap attack as an outright tripling. I don't particularly care either way though, and your method makes quite a bit more sense. Ninety damage versus 114 isn't really something to sweat over, particularly since it isn't even close to what Makoto is capable of when she has her mount active. It didn't seem... thematic, to break out everything at once. I'm trying to avoid using the costume or illuminations until Makoto has had a little more time to get used to her abilities.

That said, Makoto is admittedly rather optimized. I generally don't optimize my characters, but strikers are... kinda useless unless you do. At her best, Makoto boils down to 'If I can land a hit, remove one enemy from the battle each round'. But much as Snowfire listed things that can mess with her, Makoto's biggest vulnerabilities are frankly much more common - high AC, miss chances, and low ceilings.

I'm not really attached to the striker position - it isn't honestly one that I enjoy all that much. But it's one nobody seemed to want to fill, so it seemed a decent way to not step on any toes. If you guys would prefer to not have a character that can OHKO any of her teammates, I'd happily rebuild Makoto into something more akin to a skillmonkey.

Using a phone from a long cab ride for this. Hoping to be able to get back to my laptop proper later today.

[userpay]

So stated up my tiger last night and it was only this morning when I was getting ready to reply that I realized that I used 3.5 instead of Pathfinder.

Derp.

Anyway bit longer and my post will go in.