Total War: Broken City OOC

[oblivion6]

Originally Posted by ArcaneStomper

You built a long road.

i think you mean I built a long road i did most of the funding...and it turns around and is used against me by the Wardens and Gears-Chosen.

[ArcaneStomper]

Originally Posted by Greystone

It goes back to taxation. Right now, it is only as powerful as the composite factions- as essentially we are all working as separate entities with only our own resources to deal with a variety of issues. We tax? Suddenly we have the ability to do things.

We can unify the city, enact city-wide public works, and work together. Until we do that, then we are vultures picking at a decaying carcass of what was once a unified city.

Yeah but what exactly are you doing for city wide works. Like I said before the SGA has actually done work helping the refugees. I personally am building a city wide subway system. I have plans for a municipal water and power grid. And I'm fairly sure I'll be able to make good headway on those in the next turn or two.

And this was solely out of my own pocket. No one has been paying me any taxes. Even if your other forces were busy fighting surely you could have pooled your money to do some pretty big things.

[Greystone]

Originally Posted by ArcaneStomper

Yeah but what exactly are you doing for city wide works. Like I said before the SGA has actually done work helping the refugees. I personally am building a city wide subway system. I have plans for a municipal water and power grid. And I'm fairly sure I'll be able to make good headway on those in the next turn or two.

And this was solely out of my own pocket. No one has been paying me any taxes. Even if your other forces were busy fighting surely you could have pooled your money to do some pretty big things.

This makes my brain hurt so hard... it burns a little. While its true that we were busy fighting a dangerous mage, and lets not forget the invading army, wars like this cost money.

For the past three turns or so the EBSA has used its entire wealth (which isn't very much on supporting the war effort and helping refugees. I would love it if we had time to focus on public works, but frankly we didn't have the funds.

As it happens some taxation will give the city some revenue, and give us the ability to rebuild the destroyed regions of the city and institute some city wide betterment. Its all about give and take, and as we can see in real life- nations and states need taxes to do anything- even if it is only foreign defense.

[ArcaneStomper]

Originally Posted by Greystone

This makes my brain hurt so hard... it burns a little. While its true that we were busy fighting a dangerous mage, and lets not forget the invading army, wars like this cost money.

For the past three turns or so the EBSA has used its entire wealth (which isn't very much on supporting the war effort and helping refugees. I would love it if we had time to focus on public works, but frankly we didn't have the funds.

As it happens some taxation will give the city some revenue, and give us the ability to rebuild the destroyed regions of the city and institute some city wide betterment. Its all about give and take, and as we can see in real life- nations and states need taxes to do anything- even if it is only foreign defense.

Just because you have other things to spend on doesn't mean you can't do public works too. Just 1 wealth from each member and you would have significantly more wealth than I have total. And I haven't spending all that on public works, but I have managed to build a transportation network and contribute to helping out in Dogma.

And you've built a road and you've helped refugees as well. But that's my point. There are seven of you, but as far as I can tell the entire council combined has not contributed significantly more to the welfare of the city than I have alone.

And war is no excuse. My wars might not have been as flashy as the Librarian one, but my soldiers have spent quite a bit of time fighting, and not just local powers. Actual foreign agents infiltrating the city.

Edit: If you can't fight a war and take care of the city it doesn't give you a valid excuse. It just means you shouldn't be the ones in charge of the city. Yes that's a high standard. But when we have the chance to pick a city government we might as well get the best one possible.

Edit2: And if you thinking I am being unreasonable just ask King James what I've been talking about with him. Bloodhand and the sausage guild are very picky when it comes to deciding who to support. So far no one has managed to meet their standards as to a government they can support fully.

Edit 3:
Bloodhand's Criteria for Government
1. Has strong sense of duty.
2. Can handle themselves under pressure and tight deadlines.
3. Unafraid to make hard and painful choices.
4. Can make good long term plans.
5. Can make good short term plans.
6. Can actually carry out plans effectively.
7. Can satisfy at least 80% of citizens and political powers. (100% preferred.)
8. Can handle all foreign affairs well.
9. Can handle all domestic affairs well.
10. Can handle both at once with losing any effectiveness.
11. Can strengthen Sav Altulas on all fronts
12. Can satisfy mutually opposing demands. (Bloodhand does not see this as an impossible request just the mark of a very good and wise ruler.)

[Greystone]

A government, and let me make this clear, no matter how small the scale NEEDS TO RAISE MONEY. You want the Council to do things? Give them a a discretionary fund. The EBSA has been fighting infiltrators as well of the Shakers (Which I should add had a higher damage potential in anything that Bloodhand has had to deal with).

Which would you prefer? We half assed a conflict which would lead to more damage to repair roadwork across the city? Thats not how it works, and if you look at any true historical entity you will find that when Spartans are at the gates and in the city of Sparta, funding understandably becomes a bit tight.

Not only was the road created, but a diplomatic corp was developed for outreach, and the Palace has begun to be stabilized. As it happens, the EBSA would LOVE most of this:

Bloodhand's Criteria for Government
1. Has strong sense of duty.
2. Can handle themselves under pressure and tight deadlines.
3. Unafraid to make hard and painful choices.
4. Can make good long term plans.
5. Can make good short term plans.
6. Can actually carry out plans effectively.
7. Can satisfy at least 80% of citizens and political powers. (100% preferred.)
8. Can handle all foreign affairs well.
9. Can handle all domestic affairs well.
10. Can handle both at once with losing any effectiveness.
11. Can strengthen Sav Altulas on all fronts

Most of these can't be done at the moment because not a single member of the council has fully given their full support (except maybe the EBSA) to the government. With infiltrators in the city, half of the council was fighting a seriel killer while the rest were dealing with tiny local gangs. This is understandable because 1) It is merely a temporary government and 2) they are each worried about the success and survival of their faction.

This won't end until a government has some power, to have power they must have funds. Blaming a practically unfunded, fractured government for being weak and only fighting in the cities defense- is like blaming a starving, freezing man for focusing on defending his family from wolves when he could be farming.

And number 7 depends on your definition of satisfy. If that translates to 'are happy with', then there is literally no government which can reasonably do that.

[puppyavenger]

Originally Posted by ArcaneStomper

Yeah but what exactly are you doing for city wide works. Like I said before the SGA has actually done work helping the refugees. I personally am building a city wide subway system. I have plans for a municipal water and power grid. And I'm fairly sure I'll be able to make good headway on those in the next turn or two.

And this was solely out of my own pocket. No one has been paying me any taxes. Even if your other forces were busy fighting surely you could have pooled your money to do some pretty big things.

Hey, that power grid is mine, you hear?

Originally Posted by razovor

How did the Blackfists read a private SGA message?

If they haven't infiltrated the commerce hall, they shouldn't be able to read them.

If they have infiltrated the commerce hall, we just caught them admitting to it.

Can that many people really read my mail?

[ArcaneStomper]

Why can't there be a government that satisfies at least 80% of the people. Just because historically I can't think of one doesn't mean it's impossible. And this is both a.) a fantasy world, and b.) Total War where morale can go unreasonably high.

Originally Posted by puppyavenger

Hey, that power grid is mine, you hear?


Can that many people really read my mail?

Just because you invented it doesn't mean you're the ones who's going to exploit it.

[Greystone]

Originally Posted by ArcaneStomper

Why can't there be a government that satisfies at least 80% of the people. Just because historically I can't think of one doesn't mean it's impossible. And this is both a.) a fantasy world, and b.) Total War where morale can go unreasonably high.



Just because you invented it doesn't mean you're the ones who's going to exploit it.

Again, if satisfy means accept, then it is very workable. But humans are naturally able to find flaw in even the best of programs, so an 80% happiness rate is a very rare phenomena.

[ForzaFiori]

The Revolution HAS been doing public works. We contributed to the road; founded a school and a branch of Vassari's hospital; rebuilt Pisser's Kingdom, The Imperial Third, and Rot's Borough; rooted out several dangerous gangs; and helped defeat a hostile army.

I'm sorry that I didn't send people to dig tunnels with you because they were busy with other things, but if you had run the idea by the council, maybe we could have found some support to give you. If we had a discretionary fund, we could have done even MORE to help you.

I can't say this enough: if you have a problem with the council not helping you or doing what you want, and you haven't TOLD us what it is you want help with, that is YOUR fault, not the Councils.

The end of the matter is, the council has always been open to receive the opinions of the city. Anyone may send letters to the council and have their problem looked over. Everyone was free to come to the meeting and decide on the council. If you decided not to come, that was your choice. But it's like deciding not to go to vote on election day - you decided that it wasn't important enough to make time for, the government doesn't have to conform to your schedule. You want to have an active role in the government, take one. speak up.

[ArcaneStomper]

I don't want any help digging my tunnels. And the fact that you have done some good work is admirable. But the fact is that as far as I can tell the council as a whole isn't doing anything particularly useful.

You haven't done anything significant enough to even stand out as important beyond the fact that you have multiple members and any organization with multiple members is a potential power block.

It's not a question of going out to vote on election day for the senators. It's a question of going out to vote for the members on the PTA board. Why would I bother interacting with an organization that simply hasn't done very much as far as I can tell. I being the Sausage Guild. And the perspective being someone who doesn't have the espionage to do more than read the Sav Altus broadsheet at the start of each turn. Which also applies to your ordinary citizen.

You simply don't have good enough publicity. I mean shoot when I think of the Librarian battle I don't even think of the council I think of the EGSE. Running things in the background might be all very well for the ordinary bureaucratic processes of government but it doesn't inspire people to go and support you. Individual members of the council stand out. Dr. Vasari for instance. But again the council as a whole does not seem very impressive.

At the end of the day King James approached Bloodhand and offered him a place in the government, while the council wants everyone to come to them. Take that as you will.

Edit: Also I would point out that you may complain about not having enough funding, but King James is the one who actually proposed a tax. I may not like it or want to pay it, but all your arguments in favor of it only support the person who actually proposed it not yourselves.

[razovor]

Originally Posted by puppyavenger

Can that many people really read my mail?

Your morale is too high for me to beat. But I can beat the morale of the receiver. Most of the time.

[Thelonius]

Council minus Wardens, has done pretty good with the MU war. And comparing it with Sausage Guild’s ’’fight’’ against foreign infiltrators isn’t exactly right.

I tried to get Council power to tax with construction of the Council Road – basically imposing a one-time tax on territories, where the road passed. I also tried to fund the Diplomatic Corps by all Council members. I’d say generally it didn’t work. Diplomatic Corps was funded by the Guilds only and a number of taxes weren’t paid.

Guilds could lay claim to the city, considering our work together was most productive of all power blocks in the city. We’ve got working airships, even with Wardens attack and MU trouble eating a lot of our resources. But we are apolitical.

Then again, time has passed. Just because Council was less efficient then, doesn’t mean it can’t grow stronger with passage of time. King James wasn’t exactly commanding obedience, when he came to the Guilds the first time and now look at him.

Well, the fact is, I think Council lacks the will to rule and to use violence, unless it’s against something like MU. ESBA is about running things. Vasari is pretty much the same. Wardens have been silent. Mercantile Guild is focused on trade, not politics. Ram is focused on democratic revolution. Lord Wallen is tied to Royal camp. If there is no one within the Council that seeks to seize power in the Broken City for the Council.

My personal preference at this point if for King, since I feel it’s more likely to work. He's more likely to rally troops and crush whoever opposes him, and government is basically a monopoly of violence. I don't get the same vibe from the Council. Of course that ’’con-stitution-al’’ monarchy thing Lord Wallen has been going on about… wouldn’t mind that. If Council proves itself as superior ruling organization, then my allegiances would shift that way.

I don’t have as stringent requirements for government as Sausage Guild. If it can lead, provide security and doesn’t plunder/murder its subject without cause, I’m in.

[puppyavenger]

The criteria for the support of the Chosen is essentially
a. Not a heretic
b. leave us alone with our mad science
c. Offer a better deal then the other guy.

[Eldan]

I propose a new grouping, the Citizen's Assembly. Would you be interested in a position?

-We only talk about problems that concern the whole city, like foreign invasions, that are too big for individual people or small factions to solve, and we mediate in problems between Assembly members.
-We will not tax you, contributions will be voluntary.
-We will not write laws. Laws are too stiff to respond to any emergency.
-We will not tell you what to do. We each solve our own problems.
-We will not spy on
-Anyone gets a voice. Whether they are a faction leader or a sewage canal cleaner.
-We don't have any illusions of legitimacy or effectiveness. We won't talk about things that don't concern us, and we won't claim that we have any right to tax or discuss non-members.
-No secrecy. Everything we discuss, we discuss in public.

[Murska]

Correction. The Sausage Guild dishonourably surprise-attacked the homes of the Wardens and their small remaining number of patrolling guards while fully aware that the army was away, without any warning.

[Thelonius]

That's pretty much Council for poor people. (indulges in rich man's laugh)

Anyway, isn't it interesting that Champions of Sovereignty appear to be coming on top of power struggle, simply because of ''royal blood''.

Edit: Valiantly came to the rescue of the honest merchants of Mercantile Guild, who were trying to save their lives and livelihoods from Wardens?

[Eldan]

Originally Posted by Thelonius

That's pretty much Council for poor people. (indulges in rich man's laugh)

Pretty much, yes. It's also more directly democratic, and doesn't pretend to be in any way legitimate.

[ArcaneStomper]

It also sounds like it would be ineffective.

Just for one thing if it can't interfere on domestic issues then its set up for a single leader to gain power and crush all his opponents.

He wouldn't even have to change the system to establish a dictatorship. Once he acquired the power there would no one to oppose any measures he proposed. And sure anyone could talk in the council. If they were willing to mark themselves like that.

Edit: Also it doesn't really have any powers. One way or another a government has the power to govern. This is more like a nice debate club that can make suggestions. For real life examples I would point to the UN and how wildly effective they've been.

[Thelonius]

I think you are underestimating UN Shadow Government. Isn't the fact that everybody thinks them weak and ineffectual very convenient? Nobody expects UN Blue Berets... Nobody expects...

And we already have People's Assembly. Isn't it what the city in its current state is?

[ArcaneStomper]

Originally Posted by Thelonius

I think you are underestimating UN Shadow Government. Isn't the fact that everybody thinks them weak and ineffectual very convenient? Nobody expects UN Blue Berets... Nobody expects...

And we already have People's Assembly. Isn't it what the city in its current state is?

By that logic the weakest most ineffectual organization on the planet is the true ruler of earth.

And I was going to say that yes the People's Assembly pretty much sounds like what we have already.

[Thelonius]

Ha, ha. Funny Joke about UN being Shadow Government, dudes. Nah, I wasn't been Serious. Now to think what Dr. Vussari will do next.

[razovor]

The correct spelling is 'Sovereignty'

[Thelonius]

So, before we discuss creation of constitution to limit power of absolute ruler, we should discuss how it can be circumvented in case of some emergency? That is correct thinking, as security is more important then freedom.

[Eldan]

Absolutely. I propose that we elect three people, let's call them consuls, who can then choose one guy who takes total control in an emergency and then peacefully gives it all up once the emergency is over.

Though to make sure nothing bad happens, we should also tell him to never lead his army into the city.

[ArcaneStomper]

It seems ridiculous, but this is a fantasy world. We can create a magic that will force the absolute ruler to give up power when the emergency is over. And install cutoffs to prevent him from simply never declaring it over.

[ForzaFiori]

Anyone who gives up freedom for security deserves neither and will lose both.

Even in an emergency, the constitution must continued to be upheld. That doesn't mean it can't be written allowing specific extra powers to the government during times of emergency, but it wouldn't allow them to just crap all over it. There are multiple places where that ability has screwed over nations that I won't go into any further.

[ArcaneStomper]

Tell it to the other Guilds. A tax is proposed and nothing is given in return beyond vague details. Sure we'll go with that. What can possibly go wrong.

Come on guys guild's are supposed to be against taxes. We're all merchants trying to make a profit.

[Grimsage Matt]

The Technists will allow them to think we agree, but till the stuff is laid out? We're not paying jack. Show us what we'd be paying for, thenm we'll try cheating you at every chance, deal?

[Thelonius]

It seems ridiculous, but this is a fantasy world. We can create a magic that will force the absolute ruler to give up power when the emergency is over. And install cutoffs to prevent him from simply never declaring it over.

Yes. And I believe I'm most qualified to apply that mental magic to our absolute ruler. I've got just the right spell (muahahahha).

And I believe the Guilds are getting not being killed, if we pay our taxes. Champions have considerable army. They join with Wardens and it's curtains for us.

Brainwashing World Leader iss G-g-g-r-r-rate Idea! That's the only way we can protect Democracy.

[Eldan]

Hm. You now, if Skeeve Redeye or SM was still around, they'd both be pretty great at mindraping our future king. In fact, I propose we send the King and the Champions back in time three or four turns, so that can be done.