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Old 09-21-2012, 02:34 PM   Top  -  End  -  #961
Ragnar Lodbroke
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House Wallen

"What of the Doctor's question? Should all trade with the shattered lands stop?"

"To this, I will say what I think. I do not set party policy by miself, so I will ask my companions what is their opinion, and publish the Party's ideas on the matter. I only speak because I believe that a lot of them will agree with me.


First of all, let's just say that many of the warlords are the wrong kind of rulers for any kind of people. They promote war and violence, and keep their people opressed. Some of them are not the case, however.

Most of them sack the trader caravans and are a threat to them.
When we think that way, the first idea that comes to mind is that we should avoid all relations with them, and label them all as thieves.

And that would be horribly wrong.

We should think what is the first priority for the City. We should ALWAYS think that.
Our first priority must be our people, our fellow citizens. We need to feed each other and help each other, to live through this dreadful winter.

To do that, we need to trade and work, and the fact is that most of the city's exports come from the shattered lands. To stop such trade would be suicidal and idiotic.

So my answer would be no.

I would be open to the idea of making each warlord responsible for the caravans that went through their territory, and of course I would support to stop trade to a warlord who is considered a threat to the city or the realm, or that trades with inmoral goods such as slaves.

But stop all trade? Nonsense."

Last edited by Ragnar Lodbroke : 09-21-2012 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 09-21-2012, 02:46 PM   Top  -  End  -  #962
Murska
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To stop all trade?

Ethically speaking, yes. However, in practice, it is not yet possible. We should explore alternatives, reduce reliancy and take control over the main resource areas for ourselves, thus strengthening our own economical position and providing much-needed stability instead of the opposite.

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Old 09-21-2012, 03:15 PM   Top  -  End  -  #963
puppyavenger
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Gear's Chosen

On The Issue of the Wardens


The Shattered Lands are a cacophony of war and bloodshed, a forsaken land of dissonant crashed and inharmonious notes. Others have noted that organized gangs that would equal the bandit chiefs and black sorcerers which dominate the Lands exist within the city as well, as if that is a point in favour of dealing with them.

When something is corrupted and broken, the correct thing to do is not simply make do and make yourself comfortable. You cleanse the disease, you replace the broken parts, you redeem what has fallen and, if necessary, rebuild what must be destroyed. If Sav Atlus continues to exist purely by the whim of the parasites and detritus which isolate our city, then I would say that sorry situation should be corrected!


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Old 09-21-2012, 03:24 PM   Top  -  End  -  #964
Thelonius
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Wardens

''So will you you leave the Traitor's Bridge in the hands of the Mercantile Guild?''

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Old 09-21-2012, 03:33 PM   Top  -  End  -  #965
Murska
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Of course not.

It's not like we'll be blocking the bridge. Traders and caravans can pass as they have before, provided they don't carry anything they shouldn't such as weapons to the Warlords. And, of course, the vast majority of security efforts will be directed towards searching inbound traffic.
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Old 09-21-2012, 03:56 PM   Top  -  End  -  #966
Thelonius
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Wardens

’’So if you are not given control over the Bridge, will you employ violence to take control? Because, if you say yes, I can hardly see, how you can deny extortion charge.’’

’’Now Mercantile Guild has dealt with smugglers, sought to secure the trade routes against Warlord attacks and assisted in the construction of the Council Road. I do not see what legitimate claim you have over it.’’

’’I also do not believe your assurances about leaving the trade intact, rather than taking advantage of your position of power. As for your intent of securing resources from Shattered Lands, while you are capable of intimidating and robbing merchants, I see no reason to believe your campaign against the Warlords would be successful.’’

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Old 09-21-2012, 04:15 PM   Top  -  End  -  #967
Eldan
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Old 09-21-2012, 04:26 PM   Top  -  End  -  #968
Grimsage Matt
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The Wardens

Yes, we agree that the warlords don't do such a good job of managing their own people, however, I ask you this. Would you rather have uneasy peace with a bully intill you can win, or have complete peace chained and ground underfoot of the Illarym? For now, we're stuck with the warlords, but what you fail to realize is that the reverse is also true. They can't afford to tick us off. Us cutting off trade with them would spark a war, because they need what we sell them. If we stop selling? The Wardens will have their unwinable war.

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Old 09-21-2012, 04:31 PM   Top  -  End  -  #969
Murska
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No violence will be employed unless someone attempts to stop us, in which case it is not us who have initiated hostilities.

As for claims. No-one but the ruler of the City has a legal claim on ownership of the Bridge. Unlike, for example, the Sovereign Guild's Association, the Wardens claim no ownership. The most legal claim of outright ownership would likely be the one of King James. Regardless, the position is of significance to the city and inhabitants thereof and so should be properly taken care of.

As for the merits of the Mercantile Guild you listed, we would like to note that capturing a few smugglers while illegally smuggling weaponry to the Warlords themselves or posting guards on a few of their own caravans, or funding a road with little practical value that destroys strategic defensibility, traditional isolation of the inner districts and physical buildings within the City are not things of much praise. The Wardens themselves have caught several orders of magnitude more smugglers and protected more caravans during the decades of work. To note, not once have we destroyed the economy of the entire city, either.

Since you are clearly biased, do not believe anything we say, have no proof for any of your accusations and don't even try to resolve this situation in any way that would take into account the fair measure of both sides, we feel that you are unqualified to judge the matter and should cease and desist pursuing it further.


EDIT:

We've heard plenty about this 'unwinnable war' we're supposedly pursuing. It is quite interesting. Who among you counts yourselves as a master of strategy and warcraft, or even versed enough in those arts to even attempt to justify that claim? To my best knowledge, there are none among you who know more about the Shattered Lands than the Wardens do, not a single person in the city more skilled at the ways of true warfare. If someone wishes to contest this claim, please do prove me wrong on this. If we claim that a war is possible to win, then it is possible. And this one is not even particularly difficult, if approached in the correct manner.
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Last edited by Murska : 09-21-2012 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 09-21-2012, 04:51 PM   Top  -  End  -  #970
Copper8642
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The Heladuit Court

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Old 09-21-2012, 04:57 PM   Top  -  End  -  #971
ragingrage
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The Silversmith's Guild

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The Silversmith's Guild would like continued trade with the Wardens, with the possibility of Sav Altulas bringing civilization to them once the City is strong in its power.
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Old 09-21-2012, 05:22 PM   Top  -  End  -  #972
oblivion6
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mercantile's guild

so trade with the warlords is illegal in your eyes then? i am quite certain there are several other factions in the city that conduct this very same arms trade.

if you had approached me regarding this matter yourself then i might have considered it. however if i had not heard from king james about this then you would have taken it by force. you never even offered to help with the warlords or securing the shattered-lands and instead engaged in a series of violent intercity wars.

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Old 09-21-2012, 05:57 PM   Top  -  End  -  #973
Thelonius
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Wardens

’’I see. By your logic, doesn’t it not follow, that the warlords simply require the goods of the merchant caravans and by refusing to hand them over, the merchants are initiating hostilities. It appears the Warlords are as honest people as Wardens. Perhaps your hostility against them is misguided and you have much in common.’’

’’I concur that the Traitor’s Bridge should be in the hands of people, who serve the interests of the city. Therefore, Mercantile Guild has a much stronger claim then Wardens.’’

’’I do not deny that the Wardens have been fairly accomplished caravan guards. It’s an honest and useful occupation. You should have stayed as such and didn’t aspire for something beyond your ability and comprehension. A misguided ambition has led to fall of many. So far I have not seen any signs of greatness in you, merely competence. That is not enough. Perhaps, you are distinguished from other dime-a-dozen sellswords by the power of your obsession, but that particular trait usually tends to end in tragedy.’’

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Last edited by Thelonius : 09-21-2012 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 09-21-2012, 07:19 PM   Top  -  End  -  #974
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UAL to Gear's Chosen (2)
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Last edited by Zemalac : 09-21-2012 at 07:21 PM. Reason: Adding response to Thel's edit.
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Old 09-21-2012, 07:34 PM   Top  -  End  -  #975
oblivion6
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mercantile's guild

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Old 09-21-2012, 08:00 PM   Top  -  End  -  #976
ForzaFiori
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Ram Revolutio (D ESP 6)

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Old 09-21-2012, 08:08 PM   Top  -  End  -  #977
Nyrt
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Esoteric Society of Gentleman Explorers [6]


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Old 09-21-2012, 11:43 PM   Top  -  End  -  #978
puppyavenger
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Gear's Chosen (9)

On the issue of traitors bridge

To place the Mercantile Guild in charge of Traitors Bridge is to put a thief in charge of improving a bank's security. Why should a group of middle men who profit off the corrupted and inharmonious situation be trusted with the city's greatest life-line? Absent the Divine, a whole will always be constrained by it's parts, and at the moment, most of the raw materials of the city come from whichever warlord is offering the merchants the best deal. To allow the Mercantile Guild continued control of Sav Atlus is to align the city with whichever Bandit Chief is in transient ascendance, and to set us on a course where the city will become nothing more then a token of status fought over by the strongest warlords

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Old 09-22-2012, 12:44 AM   Top  -  End  -  #979
ForzaFiori
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Ram Revolution (D ESP 7)

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Old 09-22-2012, 04:35 AM   Top  -  End  -  #980
Thelonius
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Wardens

Mr. Tarmin. At this point I’m going to assume that you are either a massive hypocrite or completely clueless about what constitutes the complicated concept of ''trade''.

What do you think Mr. Keriglass and MecLechoire, two prominent merchants in the White Market, are selling to the Warlords? Cakes and Pastries? Wardens are profiting from selling weapons to the Warlords.


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Old 09-22-2012, 07:56 AM   Top  -  End  -  #981
Murska
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Logic puzzle: No. Yet another case of strawman.

Good of the people: It is for the good of the people for the system to follow laws instead of the whims of fallible men such as yourself.

Greatness is for special people born during special times. Competence is the most that can be relied on, and so something that can be planned for.

As for trade, we've already made it clear how regrettable the state of the City's economy currently is in making it practically impossible to cut off trade to psychopathic dictators. Since you claim that we're somehow profiting from it, I assume you mean to imply that the Warden organization is actually a front for Merchants Mr. Keriglass and MecLechoire. This brings us back to our earlier blue unicorn clause.

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Old 09-22-2012, 12:43 PM   Top  -  End  -  #982
oblivion6
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mercantile's guild

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Last edited by oblivion6 : 09-22-2012 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 09-22-2012, 01:19 PM   Top  -  End  -  #983
Ragnar Lodbroke
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House Wallen
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Old 09-22-2012, 01:28 PM   Top  -  End  -  #984
puppyavenger
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Gear's Chosen (9)

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Old 09-22-2012, 05:09 PM   Top  -  End  -  #985
Murska
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Old 09-23-2012, 01:25 PM   Top  -  End  -  #986
Greystone
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The EBSA

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Old 09-23-2012, 01:25 PM   Top  -  End  -  #987
puppyavenger
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Gear's Chosen (9)

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Old 09-23-2012, 01:55 PM   Top  -  End  -  #988
Thelonius
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ESBA, Mercantile Guild, Wardens [4]
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I learned two things about Montgomery that day... ...The first was that his men would follow him off a cliff. The second was that he would lead them there.

Last edited by Thelonius : 09-23-2012 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 09-23-2012, 02:34 PM   Top  -  End  -  #989
oblivion6
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EBSA, bloodhaven, wardens
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Old 09-23-2012, 03:05 PM   Top  -  End  -  #990
razovor
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The Champions of Sovereignty:

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