General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

[ocel]

Lets hope this will be the second of many general threads relating to the World of Darkness setting.Here is the first General Thread: #1: Assemble.

[Selrahc]

Continuing from the OWoD is the aftermath of Exalted conversation... it was also implied that Exalted was the result of Divis Mal's universe creation in the Aeonverse.

[Morty]

Of all the oWoD gamelines, I think it was Hunter: the Reckoning that was most influenced by the "Creation is WoD's past" conceit. The Imbued were supposed to be heirs to Solars somehow. I'm not sure how that was supposed to work.
Mind you, while I haven't read Imperial Mysteries, I choose to ignore the idea that each splat has a superpowered being or class of beings looking out for it. I prefer my nWoD without godlike beings playing it like chess.

[The Glyphstone]

Considering that was the worst part of OWoD IMO, I tend to agree with you.

[Lord_Gareth]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Considering that was the worst part of OWoD IMO, I tend to agree with you.

I agree...conditionally. The worst part of oWoD's setup was that those almighty cosmic chessmasters were omnipresent, incapable of ever missing information, and constantly meddling in global affairs on an absurdly personal level. Part of nWoD's great victory - an appeal - is its large emphasis on local affairs. Certainly, travel games are possible and fun! But the important bit is that what a character does in their home town or city is not only important, but significant, you know?

Once you start screwing around with Archmage level play, though, you've entered into a new genre of horror entirely (Lovecraftian, not gothic) and left 'local' behind about as definitively as it can get left. Cosmic chessmasters make perfect sense as enemies in such a setup, and the glory of it is this - unlike in oWoD, THESE chessmasters don't/can't/won't compromise free will on a massive, unstoppable scale. Chances are high that your character and their local problems mean precisely bubkis to them, y'know? They've got bigger fish to fry - mostly the ones that cause various kinds of apocalypse - which means that you can justify using them as much, or as little, as your group likes without totally re-writing the meta-plot.

[CN the Logos]

Originally Posted by Morty

Of all the oWoD gamelines, I think it was Hunter: the Reckoning that was most influenced by the "Creation is WoD's past" conceit. The Imbued were supposed to be heirs to Solars somehow. I'm not sure how that was supposed to work.
Mind you, while I haven't read Imperial Mysteries, I choose to ignore the idea that each splat has a superpowered being or class of beings looking out for it. I prefer my nWoD without godlike beings playing it like chess.

I agree completely. Anything that makes the players in a roleplaying game insignificant is, to me, a bad thing. Stories where the main characters are helpless to control their own destinies might be interesting, but if the players have no agency, why even bother with the dice? Just spend an hour or three telling your players how badly their characters fail at everything they set out to do (or succeed, but if it's not due to anything they've done, it's just as pointless).

Now, I admit, sometimes tragedy is entertaining (for lack of a better word), but one of the key parts of tragedy is that the tragic hero is in some way responsible for their fate. If they really don't have any chance for a happy ending, or at least to avert the catastrophe, then it's just a really depressing shaggy dog story.

Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth

Once you start screwing around with Archmage level play, though, you've entered into a new genre of horror entirely (Lovecraftian, not gothic) and left 'local' behind about as definitively as it can get left. Cosmic chessmasters make perfect sense as enemies in such a setup, and the glory of it is this - unlike in oWoD, THESE chessmasters don't/can't/won't compromise free will on a massive, unstoppable scale. Chances are high that your character and their local problems mean precisely bubkis to them, y'know? They've got bigger fish to fry - mostly the ones that cause various kinds of apocalypse - which means that you can justify using them as much, or as little, as your group likes without totally re-writing the meta-plot.

Portraying epic level magic users as Wizard Cthulhu is probably the most sensible use of them I've heard. I prefer reading cosmic horror to playing it, but at least the players have some freedom in this scenario, even if it's only the freedom not to meddle in Things Man Was Not Meant To Know. Of course, they will meddle because there's no game if they don't, and if Wizardthulhu notices at all, they're doomed. So it still feels like curtailing player freedom to me, but I admit this is a matter of taste. A lot of people like Call of Cthulhu, after all.

[Lord_Gareth]

Originally Posted by CN the Logos

Portraying epic level magic users as Wizard Cthulhu is probably the most sensible use of them I've heard. I prefer reading cosmic horror to playing it, but at least the players have some freedom in this scenario, even if it's only the freedom not to meddle in Things Man Was Not Meant To Know. Of course, they will meddle because there's no game if they don't, and if Wizardthulhu notices at all, they're doomed. So it still feels like curtailing player freedom to me, but I admit this is a matter of taste. A lot of people like Call of Cthulhu, after all.

Well, there's still room to vary things. I, personally, am a big fan of handing my players enough rope with which to hang themselves. Sure, they can go screw with Wizardthulu. Maybe they even win. But now that they're in charge of reality...they have to run it. And if they thought being the monarchs of one, tiny, insignificant little Freehold was a headache....

[Sydonai]

Originally Posted by Morty

Of all the oWoD gamelines, I think it was Hunter: the Reckoning that was most influenced by the "Creation is WoD's past" conceit. The Imbued were supposed to be heirs to Solars somehow. I'm not sure how that was supposed to work.
Mind you, while I haven't read Imperial Mysteries, I choose to ignore the idea that each splat has a superpowered being or class of beings looking out for it. I prefer my nWoD without godlike beings playing it like chess.

Don't forget the "Red Lady" and ""Black Dragon", which were obviously the Scarlet Empress and Ebon Dragon.




Speaking of an Exalted/NWoD crossover, I've seen several comments sayibg that the description of the Abyss in Imperial Mysteries is disturbingly similar to the Wyld. What if they actually were the same thing?
(And what would this mean for the rumor that Vampirism is an abyssal plague?)

[Morty]

Originally Posted by Sydonai

Don't forget the "Red Lady" and ""Black Dragon", which were obviously the Scarlet Empress and Ebon Dragon.

I'm not familiar with either of them. Were are they mentioned?

[TheCountAlucard]

Originally Posted by Morty

I'm not familiar with either of them. Were are they mentioned?

Kindred of the East, the Scarlet Queen and the Ebon Dragon get more than a few mentions there.

[Eurus]

So, end-of-the-world scenarios aren't too uncommon. It's all but directly implied that they happen on a semi regular basis, or would if not for the distant intervention of eldritch mage horrors and the like. But does anyone have experience with running a genuine Judeo-Christian Apocalypse?

I'm experimenting with one in my game. Basically, the premise is that the Rapture has been on hold for a few hundred years now. Every few decades, a potential messiah is born... and the Lucifuge makes sure that it doesn't survive to maturity, buying humanity a few more years of life in the meantime. The occasional groups of self-appointed bodyguards has been so far ineffective at keeping the kid alive, in the rare cases that they find him/her before the Lucifuge does.

So I'm kind of curious about which team my PCs side with. Prevent the end of the world by killing a kid, or save the kid and kill billions?

[Lord_Gareth]

Originally Posted by Eurus

So, end-of-the-world scenarios aren't too uncommon. It's all but directly implied that they happen on a semi regular basis, or would if not for the distant intervention of eldritch mage horrors and the like.

Not quite. A ton of them are prevented by Wizardthulu, it's true, but the wonderful nature of the nWoD is that it is, in many ways, self-policing. Second Sight, for example, has a whole chapter dedicated to how ordinary mortals prevent this kind of thing on a regular basis themselves. Hunters obviously have a tie into it, Mages constantly fight the Abyss, that kind of deal. Part of the reason the whole world is going to hell, though, is everyone's so busy preventing the apocalypse that no one's doing the 'maintenance work', as it were, or sometimes even actively contributing to the problem.

WizardThulu handles the Thulu level issues, but there's plenty of others, y'know?

[Eurus]

Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth

Not quite. A ton of them are prevented by Wizardthulu, it's true, but the wonderful nature of the nWoD is that it is, in many ways, self-policing. Second Sight, for example, has a whole chapter dedicated to how ordinary mortals prevent this kind of thing on a regular basis themselves. Hunters obviously have a tie into it, Mages constantly fight the Abyss, that kind of deal. Part of the reason the whole world is going to hell, though, is everyone's so busy preventing the apocalypse that no one's doing the 'maintenance work', as it were, or sometimes even actively contributing to the problem.

WizardThulu handles the Thulu level issues, but there's plenty of others, y'know?

Fair enough. It's a wonder that the world is still in one piece, really.

[Lord_Gareth]

Originally Posted by Eurus

Fair enough. It's a wonder that the world is still in one piece, really.

Indeed, but I do think that's the key, really. Much like Hunter reminded storytellers that the existence of T3 Conspiracies is as much a shining beacon of hope as it is a messed-up set of psychotic murderers, the mere fact that the nWoD still exists is a sign that positive change is possible, and that lasting good can happen.

[Morty]

Speaking of psychotic murderers, an idea for a Hunter conspiracy crossed my mind recently.
I don't have a name yet, but they would believe that the heroes of myth - Heracles, Achilles, Beowulf, Siegfried, Cuchulain, Ilya Muromets, what have you - were Hunters, who fought the monsters openly and protected humanity from them. However, humans grew complacent, so the monsters were able to corrupt them from within and make it so humanity was no longer capable of producing such mighty heroes. Which reduced the world to the sorry state it is in now. The members of the Conspiracy would think it's up to them to recapture the glory of the ancients and beat the monsters back. Their method of accomplishing it would be to become like the heroes of old and fighting monsters, then swaying the masses.
Their Endowment would consist of special techniques of training, purification and meditation that would allow them to perform specific superhuman feats - possibly they'd be tied to particular mythic heroes, but given the sheer number of such individuals, it may not be possible.
Not sure about the recruitment process. Perhaps they'd seek out individuals they deem worthy of becoming heroes, by the virtue of their skill, prowess and, although they'd never admit it, being crazy enough. Then they'd test them both secretly and openly.
Their approach to monsters would be very simple - everything unhuman and/or using supernatural powers is an impurity which must be cleansed. Beowulf didn't think too much about ripping off Grendel's arm and neither do the members of this conspiracy. However, their Vigil would be defined by following in the footsteps of ancient heroes. They'd obsessively search for any evidence of them or even new twists in the myths. What's more, when hunting they'd try to follow the patterns, believing that this way they can get closer to their legendary progenitors. A hunter of this conspiracy preparing to fight a warlock would seek parallels between their mission and any legendary figures who also faced evil magic-users.
As for the general attitude of their members... there would be a very strong elitist vibe to them. After all, they're heroes - better than the teeming masses. There would be a number of people with Nazi-like or outright Nazi ideas about "blood purity" among them. And apart from that, well, they're people who want to be Heracles. It doesn't cry "sanity".

That's what I have so far. Details are still missing, obviously - their history, mostly - but I wanted to hear your thoughts. One thing I'm not too sure about is whether they'd recruit anyone or just those they decide have the blood of the heroes in their veins... however they'd determine that.

[Fouredged Sword]

That is awesome, but throw in a mix of "he who fights monsters" and let that take off.

Maybe have meditative abilities that allow characters to enhance their abilities, but they require a willpower roll when you come down to prevent a derangement like effect. Have the abilities cost 2+ willpower to use, but if your vice matches the dominant vice of the power the cost is reduced by 1 willpower, but the willpower roll to avoid the backlash is at -2.

Strength of the gods (0000) - Wrath dominant. Spend 2 willpower points. For the remainder of the scene, on all strength based rolls you act as if you had spent willpower to increase the die pool of that roll. Spending additional willpower will not increase the die pool further, but you may risk willpower, but any extra die gained from that do not stack. You may release this effect at any time, but the effect continues until you calm down. Calming down requires an extended action (1 roll per round, roll willpower, requires one success per roll that benefited from Strength of the Gods). Any turn that you do not gain any successes on the calming roll you attack the nearest target, friend or foe.

[CN the Logos]

Originally Posted by Morty

Speaking of psychotic murderers, an idea for a Hunter conspiracy crossed my mind recently[...]

Mirrors has rules for both extraordinary mortals (which you could use) and a full fledged major template designed to emulate the likes of Heracles et al. It's quite a bit more powerful than Hunter endowments, but it'd probably work unless you really wanted intra-Hunter crossovers.

Now, I come bearing something I promised at the beginning of the last thread. Some changes to vampires: designed to be slightly closer to folklore in some respects, and just a bit more crossover friendly in others. I figured I'd share given that some of you were complaining about vampires not being crossover-compatible on account of their being extremely flammable. Where not mentioned otherwise, the rules are as described in the actual Vampire book (e.g., vampires still have to try to stay awake during the daytime even though the sun no longer sets them on fire.

So, without further adieu...

Damnation and the Embrace:

Spoiler

The vast majority of vampires are Embraced as described in Vampire: the Requiem. However, it is not unknown for certain mortals to simply not die when they should, instead simply "waking up" an evening or two after death as one of the Undead. Maybe they were hideously evil, maybe they were cursed, or maybe they were just so pissed off that they don't mind damnation if it comes with the opportunity for sweet, sweet vengeance. Whatever the reason, these vampires are the Damned.

The Damned have clans just like any other Kindred; in this variant, the clans are more like different vampire subspecies and don't imply an unbroken chain of Embraces going back to the first member of the clan, although vampires of a given clan are generally similar enough to form alliances based on their common ground. However, the Damned are always the founder of a new bloodline, which always has some sort of symbolic value regarding their mortal life and reason for being Damned. This is how new bloodlines are created in almost all cases. You can either create new bloodlines for PC Damned or just refluff a bloodline that wasn't going to show up in your chronicle anyway. Or use an official bloodline as a starting point and switch a few things around; it's hardly impossible that the same (or a similar) discipline has shown up more than once in the long history of vampirism.

Bloodlines Are Thicker Than Water:

Spoiler

All vampires have the option of starting with a bloodline at character creation. In the case of most vampires, this is passed down to them by their sire along with their clan, although a vampire who doesn't want to take on her sire's bloodline can reject it during the process of being embraced, begin unlife with no bloodline, and later be initiated into a bloodline compatible with her clan as described in the default rules.

Bloodlines work as follows. Vampires who are part of a bloodline gain another in-clan discipline and an additional weakness beyond the one typical for their clan. The bloodline may also swap out one of the parent clan's disciplines for another. Typically speaking, the swapped discipline should be broadly similar in function to the one replacing it (e.g., physical disciplines should be replaced by other physical disciplines, and mental by mental) but the Storyteller may elect to waive this requirement if the character gains yet another weakness, the bloodline weakness is especially severe, or if s/he simply decides that the bloodline's in-clan disciplines don't give it an unfair advantage over more "typical" bloodlines.

Tasty, Tasty Blood:

Spoiler

Vampires are not required to drink vampire blood after reaching a certain Blood Potency level. That goes against the entire point of vampire folklore (that they are parasites that plague humanity) and is quite frankly contrary to everything we know about the food chain. However, older vampires do require more vitae to awaken each evening as their connection to the primordial forces of entropy and death becomes stronger. Vampires who don't have enough vitae in their systems to awaken go into topor and lose Blood Potency as described in Vampire: the Requiem.

Blood Potency - Vitae Consumed per Night:

0 - 1
1 - 1
2 - 1
3 - 2
4 - 2
5 - 3
6 - 4
7 - 5
8 - 6
9 - 7
10 - 8

Torpor:

Spoiler

Vampires who have their health boxes filled with lethal can remain active until the end of the Scene before collapsing into torpor, and if they can clear at least (5 - Stamina, minimum of one) health box(es) of all damage before the Scene ends, do not fall into torpor at all. Vampires continue healing normally in torpor, and once the torpored vampire has cleared at least the minimum number of health boxes they would have needed to avoid torpor in the first place, they can start making a Resolve + Composure roll once each evening (immediately upon healing sufficient damage, and each night at sunset afterwards); success means the torpor ends.

If the vampire doesn't have the vitae to heal sufficiently, use the system as written on page 175 (and probably roll up a new character). Voluntary torpor also works as written (V:tR, p.176).

Mirror, Mirror:

Spoiler

Long story short, vampires are seriously inconvenienced by mirrors and cameras. However, the nature of this weakness is slightly different from what the majority of vampire hunters (and new vampires) expect. Barring a few oddities (Lasombra, hollow Mekhet, etc...) vampires show up just fine in mirrors and on camera. They show up better than fine, in fact. They show up perfectly. While this isn't typically enough to prove that the vampire is a walking corpse by itself (except in the case of ultra-low humanity vampires and some Nosferatu), it is enough to trigger the instinctive sense that the vampire is a predator, and for humans that pay close attention, the true appearance of the vampire (somehow both sickly and hideously predatory) gives the human a good idea of what they're seeing.

Humans who get a good look at a vampire in a mirror or on camera roll Wits + Occult, with success indicating that they realize they're dealing with something inhuman, although they may not know what. In this day and age though, the word "vampire" should spring to mind quite quickly. Even if it doesn't, the vampire's mental disciplines suffer from the Humanity cap on social interactions for the rest of the Scene when used on the person who saw through their glammer, as her instinctive revulsion limits the effectiveness of the creature's supernatural powers. After the Scene ends, she doesn't necessarily forget what she saw, but the horror is no longer immediate enough to have a fortifying effect.

It's worth noting that seeing the vampire casually walking past a security camera isn't enough to give this roll, in most such cases the camera isn't going to be getting a close enough look at the monster to give anyone watching the footage more than a brief twinge of wrongness. People who already know that vampires exist (and thus what to look for) however, can actively look for vampires on such footage by rolling Intelligence + Occult.

The Accursed Daystar:

Spoiler

While they don't burn up in sunlight, vampires are weakened by it, and the sun burns away much of the illusion that allows them to pass for human. Whenever a vampire goes out in sunlight, use the sunlight damage chart on page 173 (plus clan weakness if applicable) to figure out how much damage the vampire would be taking a turn. Apply that number as a penalty to all physical ability rolls and reduce the vampire's effective level in all disciplines by that number until his level of exposure changes. This rule replaces the Humanity cap on daytime actions described on page 184 of Vampire: the Requiem.

In addition, any vampire taking a sunlight penalty of three or more cannot feign life with vitae, and the effect of any vitae spent to augment physical attributes is halved (one vitae provides only one additional die to physical dice pools). If the vampire had already spent vitae to activate the blush of life prior to taking the sunlight penalty, he loses its benefits gradually over the course of about ten minutes.

(Note: Out of deference to the movie, I've been considering having the Nosferatu still be burned by sunlight, or at least have that as a weakness of some bloodlines. However, this gives me two problems. One, they'd have to have a pretty substantial advantage to counterbalance that, and two, I'd have to redo the Mekhet clan weakness, since increased sunlight vulnerability would become the Nosferatu's other thing. Maybe I'll just have it be a bloodline weakness particular to Orlok or something like that.)

[Morty]

Originally Posted by Fouredged Sword

That is awesome, but throw in a mix of "he who fights monsters" and let that take off.

Maybe have meditative abilities that allow characters to enhance their abilities, but they require a willpower roll when you come down to prevent a derangement like effect. Have the abilities cost 2+ willpower to use, but if your vice matches the dominant vice of the power the cost is reduced by 1 willpower, but the willpower roll to avoid the backlash is at -2.

Strength of the gods (0000) - Wrath dominant. Spend 2 willpower points. For the remainder of the scene, on all strength based rolls you act as if you had spent willpower to increase the die pool of that roll. Spending additional willpower will not increase the die pool further, but you may risk willpower, but any extra die gained from that do not stack. You may release this effect at any time, but the effect continues until you calm down. Calming down requires an extended action (1 roll per round, roll willpower, requires one success per roll that benefited from Strength of the Gods). Any turn that you do not gain any successes on the calming roll you attack the nearest target, friend or foe.

I'll have to give some thought to their Endowments. I haven't really decided how they'd look like except in very general terms.

Originally Posted by CN the Logos

Mirrors has rules for both extraordinary mortals (which you could use) and a full fledged major template designed to emulate the likes of Heracles et al. It's quite a bit more powerful than Hunter endowments, but it'd probably work unless you really wanted intra-Hunter crossovers.

I'm aware of those rules, but I don't have Mirrors, unfortunately. I might buy it sometime in the future, but it's not certain. Either way, this Conspiracy wouldn't be real heroes - just normal mortals who really want to be heroes. So while I could use those rules for inspiration, they wouldn't work as they are.

Now, I come bearing something I promised at the beginning of the last thread. Some changes to vampires: designed to be slightly closer to folklore in some respects, and just a bit more crossover friendly in others. I figured I'd share given that some of you were complaining about vampires not being crossover-compatible on account of their being extremely flammable. Where not mentioned otherwise, the rules are as described in the actual Vampire book (e.g., vampires still have to try to stay awake during the daytime even though the sun no longer sets them on fire.

So, without further adieu...

Damnation and the Embrace:

Spoiler

The vast majority of vampires are Embraced as described in Vampire: the Requiem. However, it is not unknown for certain mortals to simply not die when they should, instead simply "waking up" an evening or two after death as one of the Undead. Maybe they were hideously evil, maybe they were cursed, or maybe they were just so pissed off that they don't mind damnation if it comes with the opportunity for sweet, sweet vengeance. Whatever the reason, these vampires are the Damned.

The Damned have clans just like any other Kindred; in this variant, the clans are more like different vampire subspecies and don't imply an unbroken chain of Embraces going back to the first member of the clan, although vampires of a given clan are generally similar enough to form alliances based on their common ground. However, the Damned are always the founder of a new bloodline, which always has some sort of symbolic value regarding their mortal life and reason for being Damned. This is how new bloodlines are created in almost all cases. You can either create new bloodlines for PC Damned or just refluff a bloodline that wasn't going to show up in your chronicle anyway. Or use an official bloodline as a starting point and switch a few things around; it's hardly impossible that the same (or a similar) discipline has shown up more than once in the long history of vampirism.

Bloodlines Are Thicker Than Water:

Spoiler

All vampires have the option of starting with a bloodline at character creation. In the case of most vampires, this is passed down to them by their sire along with their clan, although a vampire who doesn't want to take on her sire's bloodline can reject it during the process of being embraced, begin unlife with no bloodline, and later be initiated into a bloodline compatible with her clan as described in the default rules.

Bloodlines work as follows. Vampires who are part of a bloodline gain another in-clan discipline and an additional weakness beyond the one typical for their clan. The bloodline may also swap out one of the parent clan's disciplines for another. Typically speaking, the swapped discipline should be broadly similar in function to the one replacing it (e.g., physical disciplines should be replaced by other physical disciplines, and mental by mental) but the Storyteller may elect to waive this requirement if the character gains yet another weakness, the bloodline weakness is especially severe, or if s/he simply decides that the bloodline's in-clan disciplines don't give it an unfair advantage over more "typical" bloodlines.

Tasty, Tasty Blood:

Spoiler

Vampires are not required to drink vampire blood after reaching a certain Blood Potency level. That goes against the entire point of vampire folklore (that they are parasites that plague humanity) and is quite frankly contrary to everything we know about the food chain. However, older vampires do require more vitae to awaken each evening as their connection to the primordial forces of entropy and death becomes stronger. Vampires who don't have enough vitae in their systems to awaken go into topor and lose Blood Potency as described in Vampire: the Requiem.

Blood Potency - Vitae Consumed per Night:

0 - 1
1 - 1
2 - 1
3 - 2
4 - 2
5 - 3
6 - 4
7 - 5
8 - 6
9 - 7
10 - 8

Torpor:

Spoiler

Vampires who have their health boxes filled with lethal can remain active until the end of the Scene before collapsing into torpor, and if they can clear at least (5 - Stamina, minimum of one) health box(es) of all damage before the Scene ends, do not fall into torpor at all. Vampires continue healing normally in torpor, and once the torpored vampire has cleared at least the minimum number of health boxes they would have needed to avoid torpor in the first place, they can start making a Resolve + Composure roll once each evening (immediately upon healing sufficient damage, and each night at sunset afterwards); success means the torpor ends.

If the vampire doesn't have the vitae to heal sufficiently, use the system as written on page 175 (and probably roll up a new character). Voluntary torpor also works as written (V:tR, p.176).

Mirror, Mirror:

Spoiler

Long story short, vampires are seriously inconvenienced by mirrors and cameras. However, the nature of this weakness is slightly different from what the majority of vampire hunters (and new vampires) expect. Barring a few oddities (Lasombra, hollow Mekhet, etc...) vampires show up just fine in mirrors and on camera. They show up better than fine, in fact. They show up perfectly. While this isn't typically enough to prove that the vampire is a walking corpse by itself (except in the case of ultra-low humanity vampires and some Nosferatu), it is enough to trigger the instinctive sense that the vampire is a predator, and for humans that pay close attention, the true appearance of the vampire (somehow both sickly and hideously predatory) gives the human a good idea of what they're seeing.

Humans who get a good look at a vampire in a mirror or on camera roll Wits + Occult, with success indicating that they realize they're dealing with something inhuman, although they may not know what. In this day and age though, the word "vampire" should spring to mind quite quickly. Even if it doesn't, the vampire's mental disciplines suffer from the Humanity cap on social interactions for the rest of the Scene when used on the person who saw through their glammer, as her instinctive revulsion limits the effectiveness of the creature's supernatural powers. After the Scene ends, she doesn't necessarily forget what she saw, but the horror is no longer immediate enough to have a fortifying effect.

It's worth noting that seeing the vampire casually walking past a security camera isn't enough to give this roll, in most such cases the camera isn't going to be getting a close enough look at the monster to give anyone watching the footage more than a brief twinge of wrongness. People who already know that vampires exist (and thus what to look for) however, can actively look for vampires on such footage by rolling Intelligence + Occult.

The Accursed Daystar:

Spoiler

While they don't burn up in sunlight, vampires are weakened by it, and the sun burns away much of the illusion that allows them to pass for human. Whenever a vampire goes out in sunlight, use the sunlight damage chart on page 173 (plus clan weakness if applicable) to figure out how much damage the vampire would be taking a turn. Apply that number as a penalty to all physical ability rolls and reduce the vampire's effective level in all disciplines by that number until his level of exposure changes. This rule replaces the Humanity cap on daytime actions described on page 184 of Vampire: the Requiem.

In addition, any vampire taking a sunlight penalty of three or more cannot feign life with vitae, and the effect of any vitae spent to augment physical attributes is halved (one vitae provides only one additional die to physical dice pools). If the vampire had already spent vitae to activate the blush of life prior to taking the sunlight penalty, he loses its benefits gradually over the course of about ten minutes.

(Note: Out of deference to the movie, I've been considering having the Nosferatu still be burned by sunlight, or at least have that as a weakness of some bloodlines. However, this gives me two problems. One, they'd have to have a pretty substantial advantage to counterbalance that, and two, I'd have to redo the Mekhet clan weakness, since increased sunlight vulnerability would become the Nosferatu's other thing. Maybe I'll just have it be a bloodline weakness particular to Orlok or something like that.)

Interesting. I prefer the rules as written in Requiem, but this looks like a good variant. I've never been particularily interested in bringing the Kindred close to the vampiric folklore, though.

[The Glyphstone]

So the primary change to bloodlines is that you can start with one at BP1 instead of BP2, if it's your sire's bloodline?

[CN the Logos]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

So the primary change to bloodlines is that you can start with one at BP1 instead of BP2, if it's your sire's bloodline?

Pretty much. I never saw what the big deal was with restricting them in the first place, given that they come with an additional weakness to counterbalance their additional in-clan discipline, and some of those new weaknesses are pretty severe.

It also (hopefully) puts a little bit more emphasis on bloodline as opposed to clan; NWoD clans in my mind being broad, nebulous things that give vampires of the same clan some common ground but don't really work as the basis for an organization. I just think that conspiracies based on heritage are something a smaller, more restricted bloodline would be better at, and wanted to make bloodlines a more prominent part of the game.

[The Glyphstone]

I think it's because the 'default' starting characters are assumed to be BP1, freshly embraced newbie neonates. It lets you spend Merit dots on extra BP, but does subtly discourage it; increasing BP in-game makes it a milestone other than 'stepping stone to BP 3' by connecting it to the awakening of your blood's innate powers more deeply.

[CN the Logos]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

I think it's because the 'default' starting characters are assumed to be BP1, freshly embraced newbie neonates. It lets you spend Merit dots on extra BP, but does subtly discourage it; increasing BP in-game makes it a milestone other than 'stepping stone to BP 3' by connecting it to the awakening of your blood's innate powers more deeply.

That's a good point, but it really does depend on what sort of vampire you're looking to play. For me, I'm perpetually stuck STing, and I'll probably always be playing with my girlfriend, who was playing Masquerade before I knew what a White Wolf was. And she admits that while the fluff of some of the clans was awesome and all (she's a Sabbat player, and for the Requiem game I'm setting I've had to convince her that no, Belial's Brood does not an appropriate PC make), she was in it for the tone. That is, she unapologetically enjoyed Masquerade's whole "undead superhero" thing.

Now, I'm big into the personal horror, the creepiness inherent in becoming a monster and trying to find out how low you're willing to sink, and in emphasizing the vampiric condition as a curse, but I sort of see her point. Part of the appeal of roleplaying (or reading, or watching...) vampires for a lot of people is the fact that while they've more or less sold their souls, they've got some neat (albeit occasionally horrifying) things in return.

The other part of roleplaying a vampire that interests me (and her as well) is the immortality... And not just the potential immortality, but being able to get into the mindset of someone who's seen things that no one alive has, someone who measures life in decades or centuries rather than years. Starting as people who were just Embraced last night creates a very different sort of chronicle. Not a bad chronicle at all; there's a lot of interesting possiblities in RPing someone just starting to work his way through the stages of monster grief, it's just not the chronicle I want to run all the time.

[Lord_Gareth]

I...disapprove of these house rules, severely. In particular, the alteration to the 'prey list' of blood potency. Vampires need increasingly dangerous prey to hunt for a few reasons, but the biggest two are this: first, it helps reinforce the Sleep of Ages theme. Second, it really hits home when you become a monster so foul that even your own kind revile you.

[CN the Logos]

Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth

I...disapprove of these house rules, severely. In particular, the alteration to the 'prey list' of blood potency. Vampires need increasingly dangerous prey to hunt for a few reasons, but the biggest two are this: first, it helps reinforce the Sleep of Ages theme. Second, it really hits home when you become a monster so foul that even your own kind revile you.

You're certainly allowed to disapprove, but I stand firm on changing the "must eat vampires" thing to simply requiring more vitae for two reasons.

First, IRL, it's much more efficient to eat herbivores than carnivores, because each link between you and the source of your energy had to expend a bit more of that energy in keeping itself alive. Since all vampires require blood from some source, it's obvious that the source of their animating energy isn't in them. It comes from living things, and any vampire drinking vampiric vitae is just drinking what his victim took from a mortal (or his victim's victim... somewhere down the line it came from a living source.

You could argue that the older vampires need their vitae to be concentrated in another vampire's system first, maybe reduce human vitae to the efficacy of animal vitae rather than make it totally ineffective, but that doesn't address my second reason for the change. Vampires are supposed to be unholy monsters. They're supposed to hurt innocents, or at least mortals who haven't been actively Damned by whatever force is in charge of their world. From my point of view, putting another step between them and the humans they victimize deemphasizes the fact that no matter how you try to pretty it up, a vampire is a moving, slightly decayed corpse that eats people. Eating other monsters is inconvenient due to the vinculum, but it could be morally justified, and nothing about a vampire's condition should be morally justified. Under these rules, a vampire could try to eat only bad people, but that's still more in keeping with the theme I'm going for than a monster that only eats other monsters.

If you're worried about a world filled with ancient elder vampires manipulating everyone, I don't see that being a huge problem here. One, eight vitae is more than the average human has in his body. BP10 vampires under my rules are either going to be constantly looking for victims to take a little bit of vitae from each (and not doing much else... and still probably killing victims on a quasi-regular basis), or they're going to be killing a person a night (and are probably going to be killed either by hunters or younger vampires who don't want mortal attention drawn to them).

Of course there will be the occasional Methuselah who does well despite the odds, but having such creatures exist was never my problem with OWoD fluff. It was the fact that they controlled absolutely everything that I didn't like, and between them having to constantly refill their hemorrhaging vitae pools and the fact that 6 to 9 dot disciplines no longer exist for them to beat the rest of undead society over the head with, I think that problem is greatly lessened.

[TheCountAlucard]

Originally Posted by CN the Logos

One, eight vitae is more than the average human has in his body.

Is it, really?

From my understanding, since you don't quite "track" Vitae on a mortal character, it's translated into a point of lethal damage.

If they only have so much blood that they're completely out of it when you've filled up their health track with lethal damage from feeding, then you very easily have the possibility of a human who can be saved from complete exsanguination, since you only die when your rightmost health box is filled with aggravated damage...

[Cirrylius]

Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth

I...disapprove of these house rules, severely. In particular, the alteration to the 'prey list' of blood potency. Vampires need increasingly dangerous prey to hunt for a few reasons, but the biggest two are this: first, it helps reinforce the Sleep of Ages theme. Second, it really hits home when you become a monster so foul that even your own kind revile you.

You disapprove of them as general alterations or for crossover games specifically?

[The Glyphstone]

Is it, really?

From my understanding, since you don't quite "track" Vitae on a mortal character, it's translated into a point of lethal damage.

If they only have so much blood that they're completely out of it when you've filled up their health track with lethal damage from feeding, then you very easily have the possibility of a human who can be saved from complete exsanguination, since you only die when your rightmost health box is filled with aggravated damage...

Here's what the Red Book says:

A vessel has a number of Vitae equal to its Health dots. In
game terms, an average adult human contains seven points
worth of Vitae. When a vampire feeds from a vessel, each
Vitae taken inflicts one point of lethal damage on that vessel.

Remember that a mortal character reduced to zero
Health points goes into a coma when her last Health box is
crossed off. She isn’t actually “bleeding to death,” as the vampire
has already taken all her blood, but the state represents
her remaining will to survive.

And the Black Book:

A mortal being who has lethal
marks in all of his Health boxes is utterly overwhelmed and dying. Maybe heÕs bleeding internally, his lungs are
punctured and he canÕt breathe, or he has suffered burns
over most of his body Ñ whatever is appropriate for the
kinds of injuries sustained. Each minute thereafter in which
your character receives no medical attention Ñ mundane
or supernatural Ñ he suffers one more injury. One Health
box currently marked with an X is upgraded to as asterisk
for aggravated damage, from left to right on your characterÕs
Health chart. Once all boxes are filled with asterisks, heÕs
dead.

So yeah, that completely exsanguinated mortal can be saved...if he gets more blood in 7 minutes.

[CN the Logos]

Originally Posted by TheCountAlucard

Is it, really?

From my understanding, since you don't quite "track" Vitae on a mortal character, it's translated into a point of lethal damage.

If they only have so much blood that they're completely out of it when you've filled up their health track with lethal damage from feeding, then you very easily have the possibility of a human who can be saved from complete exsanguination, since you only die when your rightmost health box is filled with aggravated damage...

V:tR, page 164: "A vessel has a number of Vitae equal to its Health dots. In game terms, an average adult human contains seven points worth of Vitae."

Taking a point of Vitae does inflict a point of lethal damage (so you could fill a person's track with aggravated damage by drinking from them when they were already wounded and gain Vitae for doing so), but Vitae =/= maximum amount of lethal damage a human could possibly take. At the point where a mortal's Health track is filled with lethal, they start upgrading one point of lethal to aggravated per minute until they die or get medical care appropriate to their injuries, whichever comes first, so a vampire that takes even the seven that they do have probably kills his victims unless he feeds just a few feet away from someone who's going to call an ambulance as soon as the vampire is done.

Not that you don't know it, since you've been making WoD related posts on this board for longer than I've been playing the game, but it bears emphasis: NWoD mortals are really fragile.

ETA: What's the vampiric equivalent of a ninja?

[The Glyphstone]

I have Internet Celerity 5.

[Musashi]

Small question concerning V:tR!
Here's the situation:
A and B are vampires, and B is wearing the Mask of Tranquility. They briefly notice each other at a night club which they both now is frequented by vampires; A triggers a frenzy roll in B (who succeeds), but they don't pay attention long enough for them (or their Beasts) to become familiar with each other.
Later, B goes spend some time meditating in a quiet place, still wearing the Mask of Tranquility. A goes in that place, and being naturally silent, B, who's still meditating, doesn't notice him.

Problem: I was playing B.
A's player tells me that although B doesn't have to roll against frenzy, because the two vampires' Beasts are not familiar with each other yet, B should still get the urge to attack/flee, and have sensed A's presence.
I don't remember reading that in the core book (which doesn't mean much, admittedly, having had the book for a short while and being likely to have skipped important paragraphs). It doesn't seem to make much sense to me; I know vampires tend to dislike each other, but I did not know they were supposed to have those urges past their first encounter, or that one could sense the other in those circumstances.
The roleplay situation was resolved OOC as, even though A's player couldn't give me a reference, he said he's played V:tR for years and has always done things that way. It's minor and doesn't disadvantage me, so I accepted playing things this way.
I'm, however, still confused.
Who's right? A's player? Me? Nobody?