General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

[The Random NPC]

Ah, got it.

[Scottzar]

Originally Posted by Hullu_Iivana

Some people seem to think that penalty that is applied to attack when using Staff 3 is the ONLY penalty that's used. Which ignores the fact that the system doesn't work that way; the penalty is additional one, not replacing one. Saying that Staff 3 ignores Defence and Armor isn't exploiting some loophole, it's just cheating.

"The system doesn't work that way" isn't a valid rules argument.

Let's break down an attack in NWod:

Tally up your bonus.
Subtract Penalties from yourself (e.g. wound penalties)
Subtract penalties from the armour and defence of your target

The maneuver tells you to make a normal attack, so its process goes like this:

Tally up your bonus
Subtract penalties from yourself, including -1 per opponent hit.
Subtract penalties from the armour and defence of your target.
Deal this number of successes as damage to all within 3 yards of you

See how the fourth line doesn't mention your target? There's two trains of thought: you choose a target as normal, and therefore could do cheese by carrying around a debuffed, unconscious pigeon for roll boosting.
Alternatively, you can say that there is no applicable target and therefore we ignore that section.



The part were I am accused of cheating before you let me give you my argument is my favourite.

[SiuiS]

Well, I don't know. "the system does not work that way" is another way of saying "the system is not designed to support the level of granularity necessary for this to work". Which is true. A rules exploit may not break the rules, but it does fit the colloquial definition of cheating. And it's also hard to take seriously a defense of something so inelegant as an exploit to circumvent armor due to White Wolf Standard Editing, which is a paraphrasing.

I can't check just now, but it looks equally likely to say you would instead subtract the defense an armor of all targets, meaning that against three guys with Def 3 you have a -9 penalty. I mean, you take a -1 per each additional target, right? Declares those people targets already. And since you're attacking them, their defense and armor reduces that dice pool. I mean, it stands to reason doesn't it?

Ah well. Not really important. I've yet to find a storyteller who would let me actually use a fighting style, so it's entirely an academic thought exercise for me. Unless this werewolf game gets brutal, then I'll look into fun things to do.

[Scottzar]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

I can't check just now, but it looks equally likely to say you would instead subtract the defense an armor of all targets, meaning that against three guys with Def 3 you have a -9 penalty. I mean, you take a -1 per each additional target, right? Declares those people targets already. And since you're attacking them, their defense and armor reduces that dice pool. I mean, it stands to reason doesn't it?

Unfortunately for common sense, the WOD book says target when it gives us the defence/armour rules, not opponent.

Werewolves are a bit short on good fighting styles. Tooth and claw is so meh.
Generally near man form with human fighting styles is best.

[SiuiS]

No, I mean it looked like the staff fighting style section which lets you target multiple opponents says you take a cumulative -1 for each target, which does designate them as targets.

I find aspects make up for the lack. I wouldn't say fang and talon is a bad fighting style, especially when combined with pack tactics. I would say it isn't as breakable, and that it's probably better balanced than what the assumption that needing double your starting merits in multiple schools to be "worthwhile" would have one believe. It's not "OMC must have" and that's good. Because of every werewolf had to have it, full stop, it's not really a merit. It's part of the race.

Looking at the standard scale of five-dot progressions, where three dots is renowned professional but not quite Olympian, I have some qualms thinking a 3/3/4 split on martial arts with weapons that you just don really have an opportunity to learn that well is anything other than the result of dedicated training. That is, it's a goal, not a tool. Y'know?

I could probably make a case for limiting total fighting style merits per character to five or six dots, so you get your dabblers an you get your specialists.

Still, it may well work that way. Unfortunately, WoD isn't a system where the book saying it doesn't work that way r doesn't not work that way or not saying it doesn't work that way really has any bearing. It could be played that way, but if so why not play one of the systems designed for it?


I should clarify: I understand that swinging a stick based on the system should be able to, say, "use the same attack roll against all opponents". But in world of darkness that's more using the highest defense/armor of the lot, not being a bag-of-rats-fighter.

[Hel65]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Still, it may well work that way. Unfortunately, WoD isn't a system where the book saying it doesn't work that way r doesn't not work that way or not saying it doesn't work that way really has any bearing. It could be played that way, but if so why not play one of the systems designed for it?

I should clarify: I understand that swinging a stick based on the system should be able to, say, "use the same attack roll against all opponents". But in world of darkness that's more using the highest defense/armor of the lot, not being a bag-of-rats-fighter.

Yeah, that's how things should be, but that's not what's in the book. Staff Fighting text quite clearly overrides any such precedent, reason and any semblance of balance within the system when it comes to fighting stuff. Sadly, almost all of them are mechanically horrible, with most effects either useless clutter, traps for the unwary or ridiculously overpowered. Quite baffling, really, I mean they noticed that multiple actions were way too good in oWoD, judging by Requiem's Celerity compared to Masquerade's, but then they put them in Merits available to all. Weird.

So, WoD Combat for GMs 101: Ban fighting styles.

[Scottzar]

Originally Posted by Hel65

So, WoD Combat for GMs 101: Ban fighting styles.

Screws over non-majors way too badly. Also changelings, but RAW abuse changelings need all the nerfing they can get.

For example, without fighting styles, and with the general uselessness of hunter merits, even the most accomplished hunter in the world dies in six seconds to a werewolf. With fighting styles, they can cut them in half with a shotgun: the question is, what sort of feel do you want?
Without fighting styles, a mortal will never be able to kill a werewolf with semi-decent brawl, strength and stamina. The inherent supernatural buffs are just too much.
With fighting styles, though, a properly made mortal could go through hundreds of starting character werewolves without breaking a sweat.

[comicshorse]

Originally Posted by Scottzar

Without fighting styles, a mortal will never be able to kill a werewolf with semi-decent brawl, strength and stamina. The inherent supernatural buffs are just too much.
With fighting styles, though, a properly made mortal could go through hundreds of starting character werewolves without breaking a sweat.

All fine arguments for banning Fighting styles

[SiuiS]

Originally Posted by Hel65

Yeah, that's how things should be, but that's not what's in the book. Staff Fighting text quite clearly overrides any such precedent, reason and any semblance of balance within the system when it comes to fighting stuff. Sadly, almost all of them are mechanically horrible, with most effects either useless clutter, traps for the unwary or ridiculously overpowered. Quite baffling, really, I mean they noticed that multiple actions were way too good in oWoD, judging by Requiem's Celerity compared to Masquerade's, but then they put them in Merits available to all. Weird.

So, WoD Combat for GMs 101: Ban fighting styles.

A'ight. I could have sworn staff fighting itself mentioned the targeting thing I'm talking about but I'm not going to be able to check for a while and don't want to build a staff user regardless. So I'll take your word for it

Originally Posted by Scottzar

Screws over non-majors way too badly. Also changelings, but RAW abuse changelings need all the nerfing they can get.

whuh? Nerf changelings because why now?

For example, without fighting styles, and with the general uselessness of hunter merits, even the most accomplished hunter in the world dies in six seconds to a werewolf. With fighting styles, they can cut them in half with a shotgun: the question is, what sort of feel do you want?
Without fighting styles, a mortal will never be able to kill a werewolf with semi-decent brawl, strength and stamina. The inherent supernatural buffs are just too much.
With fighting styles, though, a properly made mortal could go through hundreds of starting character werewolves without breaking a sweat.

Yeah, see no. Zero to sixty is bad. We want a nice cruising speed of 35, with variances for swerving around stuff. If the only two choices are zero, or sixty, I would sooner not put everyone on the autobon and instead take cars away and give everyone rickety scooters.

Because see, your hunter could cut through a dozen starting werewolves? No. They get martial arts too. The disparity stays. It actually gets worse, since, all it takes a silver crusade for a blood talon Rahu garu to tear into you with the same skills and tweaks, only his staff is an uprooted tree.

The downside to martial arts being so easily accessible is that normals are STILL screwed, but now everyone is paranoid and feels they maur have awesome martial arts to stay in the game, meaning it's a waste of time. I'm starting to feel about fighting style merits how I do about using merit dots on your power stat.

[Scottzar]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

I'm starting to feel about fighting style merits how I do about using merit dots on your power stat.

This is what I was really talking about. Without cheesy fighting styles, mortal always loses to mage. 100% chance, regardless of number of mortals or how powerful they are (unless we get into other terrible RAW cheese).
However, mages can't get fighting styles, because that detracts from their gnosis. If they don't max gnosis at starting, they are worthless as a mage. Ergo, for supernaturals, getting fighting styles is a choice. For normals, its required to be good at fighting, which makes sense.

[Hel65]

Originally Posted by Scottzar

This is what I was really talking about. Without cheesy fighting styles, mortal always loses to mage. 100% chance, regardless of number of mortals or how powerful they are (unless we get into other terrible RAW cheese).
However, mages can't get fighting styles, because that detracts from their gnosis. If they don't max gnosis at starting, they are worthless as a mage. Ergo, for supernaturals, getting fighting styles is a choice. For normals, its required to be good at fighting, which makes sense.

Well, I don't quite see how a mage can defeat any number of trained and armed mortals in a fight with 100% chance (well, I guess that a really powerful mage could do that, but not every mage), but I don't know mage that well. Could you give some examples?

Then, there's the disagreement about the feel of the game to aim for. I'm fine with mortals being at a severe disadvantage in a fight - a hunter with a shotgun, even in a successful ambush and using silver ammo should be risking his life against a werewolf. I don't find a normal guy going through hundreds of highly capable warrior monsters (well, according to description, if not mechanics) a feature that would befit any horror ever.

[Friv]

Originally Posted by Scottzar

This is what I was really talking about. Without cheesy fighting styles, mortal always loses to mage. 100% chance, regardless of number of mortals or how powerful they are (unless we get into other terrible RAW cheese).
However, mages can't get fighting styles, because that detracts from their gnosis. If they don't max gnosis at starting, they are worthless as a mage. Ergo, for supernaturals, getting fighting styles is a choice. For normals, its required to be good at fighting, which makes sense.

SiuiS was suggesting the opposite, and I happen to agree with him - the ability to spend Merit dots at creation to fuel your power stat is one of the worst ideas in a generally pretty awful chargen system, because it's practically mandatory for most groups and forces people to make their characters less interesting for a mechanical advantage.

[SiuiS]

Originally Posted by Scottzar

This is what I was really talking about. Without cheesy fighting styles, mortal always loses to mage. 100% chance, regardless of number of mortals or how powerful they are (unless we get into other terrible RAW cheese).
However, mages can't get fighting styles, because that detracts from their gnosis. If they don't max gnosis at starting, they are worthless as a mage. Ergo, for supernaturals, getting fighting styles is a choice. For normals, its required to be good at fighting, which makes sense.

No, see, that creates a stupid self perpetuating problem. The only mages who will die to this mortal are the ones who we want to survive. The ones that aren't combat machines. Plus, even a non-combat machine can take out this fighty-dude; armor at 2 is a given, staff 3 doesn't do jack if you're the only target, and I'd you're ambushed by a man with a huge weapon you run away and scour your pattern to stay alive.

I've never seen a Mage really drop merits for gnosis. Because mage's get experience which can pretty much only be used for gnosis, it's skews the XP scale tremendously. Every Mage I've seen has put merit points into character definition, who they were before wing a supernatural, and how it's changed since their awakening. That's good. This? This presents the only choice as "Gnosis or Fighting Style" and that's terrible.

Originally Posted by Hel65

Well, I don't quite see how a mage can defeat any number of trained and armed mortals in a fight with 100% chance (well, I guess that a really powerful mage could do that, but not every mage), but I don't know mage that well. Could you give some examples?

Then, there's the disagreement about the feel of the game to aim for. I'm fine with mortals being at a severe disadvantage in a fight - a hunter with a shotgun, even in a successful ambush and using silver ammo should be risking his life against a werewolf. I don't find a normal guy going through hundreds of highly capable warrior monsters (well, according to description, if not mechanics) a feature that would befit any horror ever.

Exactly. You don't play hunter to be a martial warrior goddess badass. That's what werewolf is for.


A starting Mage with the familiar merit (3 dots) has a one time, surprise blast of 32 dice lethal. Starting Mage with the five dot Supernal spirit familiar merit and a cool back story can increase the presence of their own arcana, starting the game with 5 armor and getting a free 2 dice to their spell pool or lowering enemy resistance by 2. Or a starting Mage can look at you for ten seconds, leave, and use the name he got from scouring your mind to burn your wart out from Singapore. But that's rude.

Originally Posted by Friv

SiuiS was suggesting the opposite, and I happen to agree with him - the ability to spend Merit dots at creation to fuel your power stat is one of the worst ideas in a generally pretty awful chargen system, because it's practically mandatory for most groups and forces people to make their characters less interesting for a mechanical advantage.

Right.

A mate of mine found an XP based chargen system in one the obscure books or some such, that actually turns out pretty well. You could in theory use it to load up on every low level merit from the get-go, but that's not so bad really. The one rule was "Don't use merit XP for gnosis" with a soft, gentlemare's agreement not to dump any stats to pool XP for later use in a different category. Even before the 35 XP for being grizzled and dog-eared, these are some of the most mechanically interesting characters I've seen come out of the gate. one of them has gnosis 2, and only as a side effect of wanting her primary arcanum at 4.

Two extra dice to resistance and to freeform spells at the cost of functionally fifteen years of in-character history? Not a worthwhile trade. Your vice is about screwing yourself over for a better story. Your virtue is about screwing yourself over for a better story. The morality system is about screwing yourself Over for a better story. People who don't brim that perspective to chargen and build combat machines seem to me like they are missing the point.

[Selrahc]

SiuiS was suggesting the opposite, and I happen to agree with him - the ability to spend Merit dots at creation to fuel your power stat is one of the worst ideas in a generally pretty awful chargen system, because it's practically mandatory for most groups and forces people to make their characters less interesting for a mechanical advantage.

I would say mages are basically the only splat for which raising power stat is mandatory for a powerful character.

Is a Promethean, Vampire or Werewolf really going to be that much better with more power stat instead of merits? Long term, they're ahead a chunk of XP. But as far as playable characters go, I think the merit guys have a much better time of things.

Raising Gnosis works for mages, because mages have one BIG thing going for them, and raising Gnosis makes that big thing better. It's possible to go without, if you're planning on using few improvised spells, but there is a much more noticeable mechanical sacrifice.

[SiuiS]

Originally Posted by Selrahc

I would say mages are basically the only splat for which raising power stat is mandatory for a powerful character.

Is a Promethean, Vampire or Werewolf really going to be that much better with more power stat instead of merits? Long term, they're ahead a chunk of XP. But as far as playable characters go, I think the merit guys have a much better time of things.

Raising Gnosis works for mages, because mages have one BIG thing going for them, and raising Gnosis makes that big thing better. It's possible to go without, if you're planning on using few improvised spells, but there is a much more noticeable mechanical sacrifice.

I couldn't tell you anything about a Promethean except I hear the system is utterly unplayable.

An uratha Cahalith with primal Urge 3 is able to add his composure to his allies' defenses, speed, initiative or a mix. An Ithaeur with PU 3 can get a substantial discount on rites, and fetish creation, puttin them ahead not only in XP but also in wealth by... Well, ST Fiat, but still.
A changeling with Wyrd 3 gets a free shot at the dual kith merit, stronger contracts, better resistance, more glamour per turn and a decent shake at supernaturally high attributes.
Vampires are conceptually boring an so I've never touched the book. I'll have to fix that at some point.

But no, I've heard from a lot of sources that not putting at least one point into your power stat at the get-go is a death sentence and makes the character too weak for viable play.

EDIT: dang, I am getting dyslexic in my old age...

[The Glyphstone]

That sounds like the same sort of logic that causes conflicts with the...gulp...Tier system. Just like low-Tier and high-Tier classes are only a problem if you mix them together, you only need to start with Power Stat 2 if everyone else is doing it...if you're an entire coterie of neonates/pack of First Changed cubs/fresh from the Hedge/newly Awakened/etc., everyone being Power Stat 1 isn't an issue.

[SiuiS]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

That sounds like the same sort of logic that causes conflicts with the...gulp...Tier system. Just like low-Tier and high-Tier classes are only a problem if you mix them together, you only need to start with Power Stat 2 if everyone else is doing it...if you're an entire coterie of neonates/pack of First Changed cubs/fresh from the Hedge/newly Awakened/etc., everyone being Power Stat 1 isn't an issue.

Indeed, but it's a part of straight character creation. A newly changed Uratha could be more primal, feral, and have eroded human skills because of it – primal urge 3 and one merit sot, or primal urge 2 and four merit dots. It's not optional, it's right there in the core rules for character creation.

I do see your point though, and I seem to be beating a dead... Well, me. So I'll stop, since any differences from this point on are less logical and more ideological

[Selrahc]

An uratha Cahalith with primal Urge 3 is able to add his composure to his allies' defenses, speed, initiative or a mix. An Ithaeur with PU 3 can get a substantial discount on rites, and fetish creation, puttin them ahead not only in XP but also in wealth by... Well, ST Fiat, but still.

Explain how Primal Urge is helping any of this? Is that from a source book? Ithaeur get an inherent reduction in cost of rites, not linked to PU. Cahalith... don't have anything similar at all?

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Originally Posted by Selrahc

Explain how Primal Urge is helping any of this? Is that from a source book? Ithaeur get an inherent reduction in cost of rites, not linked to PU. Cahalith... don't have anything similar at all?

The Auspices source book, I believe. As I recall, there were some optional rules for further differentiating the auspices by giving them other fun toys to play with at higher Primal Urge.

EDIT: Yes, it was the aspects outlined in that book. Signs of the Moon, for those curious.

[sktarq]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

I.Vampires are conceptually boring an so I've never touched the book. I'll have to fix that at some point.

But no, I've heard from a lot of sources that not putting at least one point into your power stat at the get-go is a death sentence and makes the character too weak for viable play.

I think has everything to do with the style of the ST. In the last vampire game I ST'd we had players with BP 1-3 at the start. By the end of the game the guy who started with BP3 was basically agreed to be useless except that the PLAYER had turned them into a very funny enjoyable character. With the exception of wanting a bloodline (for which BP2 is a prereq) I never seen a player have an advantage by boosting their Power Stat. Looking back over the last half dozen games of Vampire/Changling etc It very much seems that the Power boosting gets you killed faster with a very high correlation.
I think it may have to do with how common and how avoidable combat is in a particular storyteller's world. It is about using the powers that your traits be they your power trait or the merits or the additional skills that you bought-The power train is often easy to bring to bare but properly thought out other choices are more powerful in a limmited arena.

[The Glyphstone]

Vampires don't get a whole lot from boosting their BP at chargen. You can't start spending 2 blood/turn until BP4+, BP3 is when you stop being able to drink animal blood, and BP2 is only important if you want to activate a Bloodline immediately. The only dice pools you add your BP to are supernatural resistance rolls. So all you really get is one or two extra max blood points.

Changelings use Wyrd in a lot of Contracts (IIRC), and things like opening the Hedge, so there's at least a positive correlation. Likewise, Mages need Gnosis for almost everything. I'm not sure what Werewolves use Primal Urge for outside crossing to Twilight, but they apparently get passive/active bonuses at PU milestones.

[Selrahc]

Changelings are a little weird because they have pledgecrafting to grab merits; and the maximum number of active pledges is based on Wyrd... So each dot of Wyrd you take can power a pledge, which can get you a 4 dot mundane merit. In addition to all the other things Wyrd gives. If you're powergaming, I'd say Wyrd is a bit of a no-brainer for Changelings, unless you have something very specific or something supernatural in mind for your merit dots.

[SiuiS]

Originally Posted by Selrahc

Explain how Primal Urge is helping any of this? Is that from a source book? Ithaeur get an inherent reduction in cost of rites, not linked to PU. Cahalith... don't have anything similar at all?

Ah, bu primal urge three for an Ithaeur can get you fetish creation not only at reduced cost but reduced level, treating it as a 3 dot rite.

Primal urge also affects how fast you can heal lethal damage, but I don't think that gets anywhere until around 5, unlike changeling and Mage.

Originally Posted by Selrahc

Changelings are a little weird because they have pledgecrafting to grab merits; and the maximum number of active pledges is based on Wyrd... So each dot of Wyrd you take can power a pledge, which can get you a 4 dot mundane merit. In addition to all the other things Wyrd gives. If you're powergaming, I'd say Wyrd is a bit of a no-brainer for Changelings, unless you have something very specific or something supernatural in mind for your merit dots.

I am always worried that if I play like that then someone is gonna break oath and ill lose my job >_<

[Selrahc]

Ah, bu primal urge three for an Ithaeur can get you fetish creation not only at reduced cost but reduced level, treating it as a 3 dot rite.

That's not really standard issue, if you're basing it off an optional ruleset to further differentiate auspices. I don't think it really says all that much about the Character Creation rules, other than that if you buff Primal Urge they start to get a bit more wonky. Maybe just don't buff primal urge? Or disallow buying it at character creation of you do buff it?

[comicshorse]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

I am always worried that if I play like that then someone is gonna break oath and ill lose my job >_<

If all you lose is your job from breaking a large Pledge consider yourself very lucky

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Ah, bu primal urge three for an Ithaeur can get you fetish creation not only at reduced cost but reduced level, treating it as a 3 dot rite.

Only if you're using that Aspect, and even then only if Aspects are being used in the first place.

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Primal urge also affects how fast you can heal lethal damage, but I don't think that gets anywhere until around 5, unlike changeling and Mage.

Book and page, please? That's not in the core book, at least as far as I can see.

Originally Posted by SiuiS

I am always worried that if I play like that then someone is gonna break oath and ill lose my job >_<

That's why you only do your really big pledges with your motley. And besides, pledgecraft is integral to changelings. It is literally how they prove themselves to be trustworthy and how they interact with their freehold.

[SiuiS]

Originally Posted by Selrahc

That's not really standard issue, if you're basing it off an optional ruleset to further differentiate auspices. I don't think it really says all that much about the Character Creation rules, other than that if you buff Primal Urge they start to get a bit more wonky. Maybe just don't buff primal urge? Or disallow buying it at character creation of you do buff it?

Well yes. But the concept of RAW insinuates sing all available book resources. Disallowing power stat boost at chargen is my assumed tactic.

Originally Posted by comicshorse

If all you lose is your job from breaking a large Pledge consider yourself very lucky

That's a good point. I am just Leary of using pledges for merits. Too many bad DMs in the past you know?

Originally Posted by ToySoldierCPlus

Only if you're using that Aspect, and even then only if Aspects are being used in the first place.

Book and page, please? That's not in the core book, at least as far as I can see.

That is directly out of core. Reread my statement and then look again.

That's why you only do your really big pledges with your motley. And besides, pledgecraft is integral to changelings. It is literally how they prove themselves to be trustworthy and how they interact with their freehold.

Changeling I am goin through slowly, as a player, and with no eye to learn to ST for it. So I'm begin the curve on the system. I thought you could only really get merits that would make logical sense. If you can make a year long pledge to be someone's slave, knowing they wouldn't abuse it, and become rich out of nowhere, it's no wonder people think pledges are a broken mechanic.

[Selrahc]

Well yes. But the concept of RAW insinuates sing all available book resources.

Eh. Not really. WoD is explicitly designed modularly, with STs being encouraged to chop, change, grab or drop whatever they want from the concepts and ideas presented in the sourcebooks. Many of the ideas and mechanics in the splat books are either mutually exclusive, or very hard to reconcile. Sometimes even within the same book. Most of the time intentionally. RAW not only doesn't exist, it can't exist.

EDIT: Primal Urge affects how quickly you can heal lethal in one way that I know of: It lets you spend multiple essence in a turn, which means healing multiple lethal damage in a turn. Starting at PU 4 though, so out of range of character creation, and at the level where social penalties are exacerbated.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

That is directly out of core. Reread my statement and then look again.

Ah, okay, I see, you said how fast one can heal lethal damage. And it's actually Primal Urge 4, like vampires and BP. Catch is, healing it that way burns your Essence, and Essence isn't exactly easy to acquire in large quantities. Otherwise, it's always 15 minutes/point of lethal, regardless of Primal Urge.

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Changeling I am goin through slowly, as a player, and with no eye to learn to ST for it. So I'm begin the curve on the system. I thought you could only really get merits that would make logical sense. If you can make a year long pledge to be someone's slave, knowing they wouldn't abuse it, and become rich out of nowhere, it's no wonder people think pledges are a broken mechanic.

Technically, pledges allow you to get any merit you want, as long as it's not supernatural and has a rating allowed by the level of boon selected. This might be to help you uphold your end of the bargain (an ogre who pledges to defend someone might get a new fighting style or a bonus to Weaponry/Brawl/Firearms rolls), but it could also be a reward for holding up your end of the bargain (your example of someone agreeing to be someone else's slave for a year, and in exchange they get more Resources dots). It all depends on how you word it.

For a larger example, the classic tale of the cobbler who makes a pledge with a changeling. The changeling will help the cobbler fill his orders for shoes; all the cobbler has to do is provide the materials and leave the changeling alone, as well as put out a saucer of milk each night. The changeling will make the shoes to fill the cobbler's orders, and will get glamour. The boon for the changeling (glamour) is a simple reward for upholding their end of the pledge. The cobbler's reward is more money (an extra Resources dot, say), while their end of the pledge is to provide the changeling with a saucer of milk each night.

[comicshorse]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

That's a good point. I am just Leary of using pledges for merits. Too many bad DMs in the past you know?

Granted Pledges are pretty much a godsend for evil GM's but, quite frankly that kind of GM is going to get you no matter what and Pledges should have risks and break sometime or they're just free stuff which is, IMHO, broken

Changeling I am goin through slowly, as a player, and with no eye to learn to ST for it. So I'm begin the curve on the system. I thought you could only really get merits that would make logical sense. If you can make a year long pledge to be someone's slave, knowing they wouldn't abuse it, and become rich out of nowhere, it's no wonder people think pledges are a broken mechanic.

You could make that Pledge and no matter how nice the guy is you will have to do something for him to justify it. Also do you really trust ANYBODY that much, if he's been conning you you are now in serious trouble.
Finally I believe Pledges can be exchanged. The guy might be as trustworthy as you thought but if your enemy has a hold over a loved one of his, is he really going to let that loved one suffer when he could get them out of it by swapping your Pledge to your enemy.
Pledges should always be double-edged swords