General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

[Hullu_Iivana]

Originally Posted by comicshorse

Granted Pledges are pretty much a godsend for evil GM's but, quite frankly that kind of GM is going to get you no matter what and Pledges should have risks and break sometime or they're just free stuff which is, IMHO, broken



You could make that Pledge and no matter how nice the guy is you will have to do something for him to justify it. Also do you really trust ANYBODY that much, if he's been conning you you are now in serious trouble. Also I believe Pledges can be exchanged. The guy might be as trustworthy as you thought but if your enemy has a hold over him or a loved one of his is he really going to let that loved one suffer when he could get them out of it by swapping your Pledge to your enemy.
Pledges should always be double-edged swords

Pledges can't be exchanged. So even if enemy does get hold of your pledge-partner, they can only make them break their side of pledge. Yeah, you'll lose your boons for a little while (the time it takes to find another person to make pledge with) but nothing more. The breaking side though... they're in deep trouble.

[comicshorse]

hmmm, must be our ST's house-rule (I assume I'm AFB at the moment)

Still I like it, makes Pledges require more thought as to the consequences and more chances for political manuevering

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Originally Posted by comicshorse

Pledges should always be double-edged swords

Maybe, but at the same time, that kind of undermines the purpose of pledges. Remember, they're Wyrd-enforced. Breaking a pledge carries harsh consequences for the oathbreaker, and the only penalty to the other party(ies) is that they lose their boons. Changelings use pledges as a sign of trust. You can't trust any old schmuck on the street, they could be working for the Gentry. Bind 'em in a pledge, though, and they'll be in trouble if they break it. Now you can trust 'em. If a pledge is a double-edged sword when you're upholding your end of it, why would any changeling anywhere ever make any pledges? And you can deal with that pesky little "pledge-trading" thing by simply including a clause in your pledges that says they exist between yourself, the other party(ies) immediately involved in swearing the pledge, the Wyrd, those who are added later by group consensus, and no one else. If the pledge is traded, it becomes null and void, because it was specifically designed to do that.

[Fouredged Sword]

You use a double edged sword because it is better than no sword at all, and when the stakes of the game is your immortal soul you play for keeps.

[comicshorse]

Originally Posted by Fouredged Sword

You use a double edged sword because it is better than no sword at all, and when the stakes of the game is your immortal soul you play for keeps.

Exactly, Pledges should be useful but dangerous. If you can gain a Pledge it should be something the PC thinks about, something he has weighed the risks for, not just a chance to grab a some free merits
( and I love the irony of somebody called Fouredged Sword making that post )

Posted by ToySoldierCPlus

If a pledge is a double-edged sword when you're upholding your end of it, why would any changeling anywhere ever make any pledges?

Fairly self-evidently you don't have anything to worry about if your upholding the Pledge. The point I was making is that upholding it shouldn't be automatic. To use an example from the book, take The Knights Oath. You Pledge to protect your Freehold and so you can gain skills and Merits but the Pledge is double-edged because if you betray the Pledge the Sanction kicks in

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Originally Posted by comicshorse

Fairly self-evidently you don't have anything to worry about if your upholding the Pledge. The point I was making is that upholding it shouldn't be automatic. To use an example from the book, take The Knights Oath. You Pledge to protect your Freehold and so you can gain skills and Merits but the Pledge is double-edged because if you betray the Pledge the Sanction kicks in

Of course, I must have misread your intent before. I thought you were saying that pledges should be dangerous to you even when you were upholding your end of the bargain. Obviously the sanction should be severe enough that you don't want to break your pledge, whatever it may be. In fact, that's useful for telling a good story, where a changeling has to choose between his pledge and something equally important to him.

[Morty]

I have another idea for a Hunter Conspiracy bouncing around my head... this time it's a group of people who nourish and refine the pieces of Abyss in their souls to help them hunt down mages by making Paradox harsher and perhaps even invoking it on mages at will. The biggest problem with this idea is that it's pretty focused on the Awakened, as no other type of willworker is affected by Paradox.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Hmm... Maybe they gain some abilities of Abyssal entities? That'd make them more useful for hunting other things besides the Awakened.

[SiderealDreams]

Left-Handed Path has been released for nMage. Wont lie, I got it based on my enjoyment of Imperial Mysteries and wanting more information about the Tremere alone. It did not disappoint. Also a Mummy ad in the back of it. Mummy btw just might Kickstart next week.

When you trespass, the reason you feel you are being watched is because you are.
THE FEAR IS REAL
When you steal, the dread that comes over you is neither guilt nor paranoia, but the cold certitude of fate.
THE CURSE IS REAL
When you die, know that your life was but a flash upon the face of the deep in the mind of your judge.
WE ARE REAL AND WE ARE ARISEN.
-Ankh-Nephris, the Hand of Wisdom.

[Pyrophilios]

@ Morty
Such a Conspiracy exists: It's the Knights of St. George from Witch Finders

[Morty]

Originally Posted by ToySoldierCPlus

Hmm... Maybe they gain some abilities of Abyssal entities? That'd make them more useful for hunting other things besides the Awakened.

Possibly. It all depends on how much they know about what they're dealing with, really. They might think themselves guardians of reality against those who warp it and be unaware that they're dealing with a horrible un-reality. Or they can be aware of the nature of their powers but hate mages enough - for instance because they broke reality in the first place - to consider it a fair trade. In the first case, Abyssal abilities not related to screwing with the Awakened might not be appropriate and in the latter they would be fine.

Originally Posted by Pyrophilios

@ Morty
Such a Conspiracy exists: It's the Knights of St. George from Witch Finders

I'm perfectly aware of the Knights, and I should have mentioned that. I'm looking for a mage-hunting organization without a crazy-religious bent.

[The Glyphstone]

Why not make them a spinoff or subdivision of the Cheiron Group? Grafting of neural tissue or something from Awakened beings or manifested Abyssal entities increases their ability to cause or invoke Paradox, and you can cross-pollinate with the normal Cheiron grafts?

The concept just feels a little too narrow to be a Tier 3 on its own.

[Morty]

That might work better. I realize that the concept is pretty narrow on its own.

[*.*.*.*]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

using merit dots on your power stat.

Could someone explain this too me? I had no idea you can use merit dots on other things except, well you know, on merits

[SiuiS]

Originally Posted by *.*.*.*

Could someone explain this too me? I had no idea you can use merit dots on other things except, well you know, on merits

at character creation for a supernatural (or werewolves, changeling, and mages - no experience elsewhere) you have the option of using your initial seven dots for merits to boost your power stat instead. It costs 3 dots, so you can have power stat 2 and four remaining merit dots, or pwoer stat 3, and one remaining merit dot.

[*.*.*.*]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

at character creation for a supernatural (or werewolves, changeling, and mages - no experience elsewhere) you have the option of using your initial seven dots for merits to boost your power stat instead. It costs 3 dots, so you can have power stat 2 and four remaining merit dots, or pwoer stat 3, and one remaining merit dot.

Thanks! That sounds like one hell of a deal, I'll have too keep that in mind for my changeling game.

[The Glyphstone]

It is a good deal - a very good deal, in fact, if you go solely by XP.

Power stat from 1 to 3 would cost (2+3)*8=40 XP.

6 merit dots can buy a 5-dot merit (30 XP) and a 1-dot merit (2 XP), or any other combination of X+Y=6, but none of them beat 32, so if you're starting with bonus XP and plan on being Power 2+, it's cheaper to buy with merit dots.

[SiuiS]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

It is a good deal - a very good deal, in fact, if you go solely by XP.

Power stat from 1 to 3 would cost (2+3)*8=40 XP.

6 merit dots can buy a 5-dot merit (30 XP) and a 1-dot merit (2 XP), or any other combination of X+Y=6, but none of them beat 32, so if you're starting with bonus XP and plan on being Power 2+, it's cheaper to buy with merit dots.

Aye. And in Mage at least, I don't really care quite so much because if you're an experienced wizard (35 xp) you've gotten around 20 XP off the books that can only be used on Gnosis. Using merit dots on gnosis and Xp on merits is abou the same.

It's a guy coming out of a vision quest with maximum power and no life, no friends, no house, no job, and no distinguishing quirks because they were all swept away for Gnosis that bothers me.

[Selrahc]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

It's a guy coming out of a vision quest with maximum power and no life, no friends, no house, no job, and no distinguishing quirks because they were all swept away for Gnosis that bothers me.

It makes sense... Vision Quests *can* take several real world months, during which the Mage appears dangerously mentally ill, ranting about magical worlds that only he can see. That could easily see him lose his job, his money, his friends, and most of his life.

There is also the back story decision to sever ties with the mortal life you had before awakening, in order to focus more on the new truth you discovered.

It gets a bit wearying if those are the only two backstories around though.

[Opperhapsen]

Originally Posted by Morty

Random questions: are there any powers that can prevent a supernatural from using their supernatural "fuel" (Vitae, Essence, Mana et cetera)? I can't think of any myself.

Hunters!
Several kinds of hunters, in lots of fun ways!

[Morty]

Originally Posted by Opperhapsen

Hunters!
Several kinds of hunters, in lots of fun ways!

Specifically? I can't remember any abilities for Hunter: the Vigil that do this. Unless you're talking about Hunter: the Reckoning, where there is at least one.

[Lord_Gareth]

Originally Posted by Morty

Specifically? I can't remember any abilities for Hunter: the Vigil that do this. Unless you're talking about Hunter: the Reckoning, where there is at least one.

Well, there's a few that inhibit powers or punish them. The Eye of Hubris, the Banality Worm, there's that one Advanced Armory one that strips Vitae (and the Equalizer Grenade for those pesky shapeshifters), the Witch Candle, and then of course the taser glove.

[Turalisj]

Vaguely WoD related- The same guy who wrote Ruroni Kenshin is doing another manga that is pretty much Promethean: the Manga. Thought some folks might be interested in checking it out. It's called Embalming.

[SiuiS]

So I have a question: what's te point of Geist? And the upcoming Mummy for that matter? What would make someone play as a mummy?

I find I'm more easily sold by other players, as when the nWoD werewolf came out, all the promotional material was dumb and totally turned me off the entire line for years.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

I'm... not entirely sure what you mean by "what's the point?" It's a game of second chances. You play as a person who died, or nearly died, and was brought back to life by a half-insane ghost-thing called a Geist. As part of the deal, you got cool powers and the ability to see and talk to ghosts, and go into the underworld. Your geist gets to ride along with you, bound to your soul and experiencing everything you are. It's basically a game for people who really like ghost stories that are actually about ghosts.

[Mephisto]

Geist doesn't really have an overarching plotline. There's no big factional conflict like Mage or Werewolf, there's no True Fae hunting for you, there's no quest to become human, etc. Sin-Eaters are pretty much Ghostbusters, only ghosts can see that they're part-ghost and come to them with their problems. Why Sin-Eaters do stuff varies; some want to learn more about ghosts and the Underworld, some want to help ghosts, some want to help themselves get what they want, and so forth.

Mummy I don't know about and don't care about. The premise just seems kinda ... dumb.

I thought of a rather hilarious trick for Mage the other day. Using a sympathetic casting of Transmute Air to create spheres of osmium 20-30 miles above a target location. The Matter arcanum is so abusable when given some thought.

EDIT: Hunters also have the Screamer gun from Witch Hunters, which stops the target from using supernatural abilities for a time. It also works somewhat like a dog whistle in driving Werewolves into rage, so... use carefully.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Originally Posted by Mephisto

Mummy I don't know about and don't care about. The premise just seems kinda ... dumb.

I stopped caring about Mummy when it refused to be released. Seriously, the pre-launch post was 25 days ago, where is the bloody release? Anyway, now I've started looking into fan-games. Leviathan is awesome, and I keep meaning to actually read through Genius at some point, though that may have to be put off until after I play catch-up on some of my school work.

Anyone else have experience with these or any other fan-made gamelines they want to share?

[SiderealDreams]

Originally Posted by ToySoldierCPlus

I stopped caring about Mummy when it refused to be released. Seriously, the pre-launch post was 25 days ago, where is the bloody release? Anyway, now I've started looking into fan-games. Leviathan is awesome, and I keep meaning to actually read through Genius at some point, though that may have to be put off until after I play catch-up on some of my school work.

Anyone else have experience with these or any other fan-made gamelines they want to share?

Nothing was "refused". The book was in layout proofing at the time the post was made. If you check out the white wolf blog you'd learn as much. Personally I'm with the folks who are super excited about ancient immortal scheming sorcerers but hey that's why there are multiple games. Not all games are going to entice all players.

[masterjoda99]

Speaking of fan works, I would like to hear more about Leviathan. What is it about? How mechanically sound is it relative to the rest of nwod? Does it play nice with other supernatural types mechanically, or should it be kept in isolation like mage and genius?

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Originally Posted by SiderealDreams

Nothing was "refused". The book was in layout proofing at the time the post was made. If you check out the white wolf blog you'd learn as much. Personally I'm with the folks who are super excited about ancient immortal scheming sorcerers but hey that's why there are multiple games. Not all games are going to entice all players.

Oh, I'm looking forward to it, I've just gotten impatient. It was slated for September; that fell through. It was moved to October; just as it looked like that was about to fall through as well, we got the "Pre-Launch Post" with an explanation that the author had just finished proofing the core set, and, "hey, here's a dramatic reading of some fiction from the game." Then October fell away and still no Mummy. Now it's half-way through November and still no Mummy, and no explanation on the blog or the Onyx Path. I wouldn't be so upset, but there's been zero explanation for the massive delay. Hence my comment about the game refusing to be released. It seems like the game itself is resisting completion or release for whatever reason, regardless of what the project leads want. I never said White Wolf was refusing to release it, just that the game itself appears to be resisting. Heck, I could have said that, "it seems to be cursed to never come out," and the meaning would have basically been the same.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by masterjoda99

Speaking of fan works, I would like to hear more about Leviathan. What is it about? How mechanically sound is it relative to the rest of nwod? Does it play nice with other supernatural types mechanically, or should it be kept in isolation like mage and genius?

I don't think it strictly needs to be kept in quarantine, though how truly crossover-friendly it is is a question for someone who is not me.

As for what it's about, it's a game of Terrible Majesty. Players take the roles of Leviathans, scions of long-dead gods, call the Progenitors, who descended from Tiamat, the Mother of All. This gives the leviathans some pretty nifty powers, in the form of shapeshifting into a range of forms from their basic human form to their monstrous Apotheosis form, and access to Vestiges, the remnants of the Progenitors' incredible powers. They can also use rituals, though I haven't actually read that section of the wiki yet.

Leviathans crave contact with humans, but this made difficult by the Wake. The Wake is a bubble around the leviathan, which expands as they grow more powerful, that puts subtle psychic pressure on all the humans within its area. The humans become more receptive to what the leviathan wants, and are more likely to follow its commands. Some humans become obsessed the leviathan, becoming Beloved. Others have a backlash against the Wake, going mad and gaining immunity to its effects. They begin obsessing over destroying all leviathans, becoming Ahabs. A third type of person is naturally immune to the Wake without being an Ahad, these are called Atolls. Atolls give leviathans a chance for human contact without the leviathan having to worry about the Wake subsuming the human's will, meaning that Atolls are cherished by leviathans.

Leviathans have access to the Rift, a sort of alternate plane of existence that is at least partially the collective unconscious of all leviathans.

Finally, leviathans have enemies. The Marduk Society is the foremost of these, being a Hunter conspiracy dedicated to the complete eradication of the Tribe. There are a few others as well, including the only Hunter group I can recall that isn't dedicated to the destruction of monsters, instead being focused on understanding them. They're called the Season Letters.

Wiki's here if you want to take a look. It's a good game.