General Exalted Discussion Thread XI: Great Job, You Broke the Scale.

[Xefas]

Originally Posted by omegalith

The weird bit is that you're expected to believe that the two main villain anti-Creationist groups have the infrastructure of their new minions up and running as if they were long-established institutions rather than a bunch of powerful but young and willful guys recruited hastily over a five year period.

Well, they're headed by Essence 10 beings. One of the Deathlords, for instance, might have an Essence 10 Bureaucracy Charm, "Setting Up Infrastructure For Powerful But Young And Willful Guys Hastily Recruited Over Five Years As If It Were A Long-Established Institution Methodology" that divides the time it takes to set up infrastructure for young, powerful, willful, and hastily recruited people by (Essence).

So, that's like, 50 years of infrastructure.

The Yozi just tell their subjects to "Get all infrastructury, okay?" with the added persuasion slash threat of "Or we'll tell Adorjan that coffee is a thing that exists, and we think you know how that'll go for you."

[Exthalion]

Originally Posted by Xefas

Well, they're headed by Essence 10 beings. One of the Deathlords, for instance, might have an Essence 10 Bureaucracy Charm, "Setting Up Infrastructure For Powerful But Young And Willful Guys Hastily Recruited Over Five Years As If It Were A Long-Established Institution Methodology" that divides the time it takes to set up infrastructure for young, powerful, willful, and hastily recruited people by (Essence).

So, that's like, 50 years of infrastructure.

The Yozi just tell their subjects to "Get all infrastructury, okay?" with the added persuasion slash threat of "Or we'll tell Adorjan that coffee is a thing that exists, and we think you know how that'll go for you."

Wouldn't they know that last bit is a bluff though? Its like keeping Sacheverell asleep. It would change Malfeas to a literal hell for the other Yozi who would have to put up with Adorjan, on coffee and other stimulants, forever.

[Lix Lorn]

Originally Posted by Xefas

Well, they're headed by Essence 10 beings. One of the Deathlords, for instance, might have an Essence 10 Bureaucracy Charm, "Setting Up Infrastructure For Powerful But Young And Willful Guys Hastily Recruited Over Five Years As If It Were A Long-Established Institution Methodology" that divides the time it takes to set up infrastructure for young, powerful, willful, and hastily recruited people by (Essence).

So, that's like, 50 years of infrastructure.

The Yozi just tell their subjects to "Get all infrastructury, okay?" with the added persuasion slash threat of "Or we'll tell Adorjan that coffee is a thing that exists, and we think you know how that'll go for you."

Have I mentioned I love you.
Also, Adorjan+coffee is totally my next plotline

[Exthalion]

Originally Posted by Lix Lorn

Have I mentioned I love you.
Also, Adorjan+coffee is totally my next plotline

I am just amazed TED hasn't done it yet. Making everyone in hell suffer even more seems totally his thing.

[Amechra]

Fun fact: Some people with ADHD calm down when exposed to caffeine.

It would be hilarious if that happened with Adorjan.

[meschlum]

The Tedious Plank

At the height of the First Age, an inquisitive Dawn sought to work out just how far essence could manipulate reality. Since the Twilights were already building huge devices meant for something they called "acausal DDoS attacks on meta-universal message boards", she decided to take the part she understood and work at a much finer scale. Whether this reduced the amplitude of the induced forum interruption is open to debate.

Taking an isolated pocket of the Wyld stuff, the Dawn proceeded to beat down every single thing that stood out and showed originality or uniqueness, seeking to create a perfectly neutral and neutered environment by means of punching it into shape. The unsouls of countless Raksha were sacrificed to this end, until an excessively bland mass of potential emerged.

The Dawn was not wholly successful, for remnants of her past persisted, granting the Wyld patch a defintely nautical aspect, remniscent of her early days as a pirate. Ruthlessly, she exterminated every portion of the ship which might be of use, ensuring there were no ropes to conveniently swing on, no sails to drop on other's heads, no stray weapons or bumbling crewmembers... Only an ever more featureless vessel and its ever more mindless small gods.

Finally, the small gods formed a committee of sorts, being unable to decide individually what things like 'up', 'purple', 'piece of wood', or 'massive explosion' could mean or imply. Fortunately for the future of Creation and the Loom, a heroic Raksha had somehow survived the ever increasing stasis and sought to infuse a fragment of originality to the dying Wyld pocket.

Unleasing a swarm of beetles, the Raksha got the warped insects to gnaw a plank loose. Despite the utter indifference expressed by its small god, the heroic Fair Folk then set the wood spinning, accelerating it until its hummed with power and spun into, and through the conglomeration of small gods defining the ship's material.

This spurt of creativity allowed its originator to escape, bearing the imprint of terrifying style that would match the best balanced of the stars. What befell the Dawn is not known, only the final act of any interest that took place:

The bored, bored board bored the bored board board aboard the bored boards.

1-dot Adjuration
Gossamer Wing Flight - those who dedicate themselves to ensuring that the memory of the Tedious Plank is preserved find that by taking a board and rotating it wildly, they can actually lift themselves above the ground.

Oddly enough, devotees of the Plank find that boards count as style weapons for the Mauve Curtains of Indifference style.


The Wonderous Milliner

So you're an alien creature from beyond the veil of death, a resident of Malfeas, an eldritch abomination whose true shape would send strong men picking daisies and chewing on their socks. Or perhaps you're just an ordinary Dragonblood, Godblood or even - dare we say it - mortal who needs to be woven into the stuff of Creation and the Loom without accounting for actual history or mundane fact.

Simply visit the Milliner and all your troubles will be solved!

We offer a wide variety of personalized retroactively authoritative hats, such that by wearing them no one will doubt that you are indeed who you say you are. Lost heirs to the throne, hidden masters of the Guild, leaders of the Legions... All these wear our hats proudly, and gain their authority thereby.

Accept no imitations - while Fred's Fine Fedoras might promise similar results at lower prices, only the Milliner guarantees protection from sorcerous attempts to restore what the great unwashed refer to as 'actual history'.

2-dot Oneiromancy
Assumption of Dreams and Passion - the Milliner's place of work simply radiates class.
Mad God Mien - counter magic is no good.
Ordinary Object Conjuration - the Milliner can create a wide range of headwear.
Unlimited Resplendence - with the proper hat, the appropriate wealth, influence and backing can only follow.

In the hands of a Worker with Mad God Mien, this allows the at-will creation of hats that convey Resources, Influence, or Backing 5 to those who buy (and wear) them. Take that, causality! Instant infrastruture and wealth, in the time it takes to buy a hat (so forever, according to some tiresome significant others).

If you're particularly worried about interference, upgrade the Milliner until it's a 4-dot Oneiromancy and put it in the hands of a noble. The MDV check to resist becomes much harder, and cold iron doesn't help anymore.

If you just need to be king for a day or so, Fred's is a 1-dot equivalent without Mad God Mien - so long as you avoid sorcerors, it'll work fine.

[The_Snark]

Originally Posted by Xefas

The Yozi just tell their subjects to "Get all infrastructury, okay?" with the added persuasion slash threat of "Or we'll tell Adorjan that coffee is a thing that exists, and we think you know how that'll go for you."

Little-known fact: Adrián, the River of All Torments, contained caffeine in such hyperconcentrated qualities that it was theorized* to be both poisonous and radioactive. The first coffee plants sprang forth from the foam of Adrián's death-throes when her fetich-soul was slain in the Primordial War.

The Charm Demon-Wracking Shout, in addition to its better-known effects, withers coffee plants and renders all caffeinated drinks tasteless and soporific within its radius.

*This theory was never tested, as all recorded cases of exposure perished of multiple lacerations and/or burn wounds before any sign of poisoning or sickness could be discerned. It remained a subject of debate among Twilight and No Moon scholars with nothing better to do until well into the Age of Dreams.

[golentan]

I don't know. I don't think Adorjan + Coffee is really the combination that would most scare the denizens of Malfeas. I think it's Adorjan + Earplugs.

Actually, it makes sense to me that both the Designated Villain factions have elaborate infrastructure. The Deathlords have been building a power base, including ghostly minions, spies, artifacts, necrotech monstrosities, bureaucracies, religions, and other things of the sort for centuries. Abyssals come in, and are put in the positions that would otherwise go to top nephwracks as far as resources and responsibilities go. Meanwhile, the infernals are stepping into the shoes of the Akuma in much the same way, in that demonic citizens have long built elaborate kingdoms within hell from which they tithe things to the unquestionable which then get distributed to their agents as they see fit, and in creation an elaborate network of cults and infiltrations from old escape attempts has been built up. It makes sense when you realize that the structures and positions the exalted occupy weren't originally intended for them, they're just better at it because, hey, solaroids.

[Turalisj]

Originally Posted by Amechra

Fun fact: Some people with ADHD calm down when exposed to caffeine.

It would be hilarious if that happened with Adorjan.

And ADD too. Oddly, I'm actually my most creative when it's 4am in the morning and I have several cans of coke empty around me


....

I challenge someone to turn that into a charm. Or a martial art style.

[aetherialDawn]

Originally Posted by golentan

Actually, it makes sense to me that both the Designated Villain factions have elaborate infrastructure. The Deathlords have been building a power base, including ghostly minions, spies, artifacts, necrotech monstrosities, bureaucracies, religions, and other things of the sort for centuries. Abyssals come in, and are put in the positions that would otherwise go to top nephwracks as far as resources and responsibilities go. Meanwhile, the infernals are stepping into the shoes of the Akuma in much the same way, in that demonic citizens have long built elaborate kingdoms within hell from which they tithe things to the unquestionable which then get distributed to their agents as they see fit, and in creation an elaborate network of cults and infiltrations from old escape attempts has been built up. It makes sense when you realize that the structures and positions the exalted occupy weren't originally intended for them, they're just better at it because, hey, solaroids.

This is fairly appropriate.
Similarly, many of a starting Dynast's resources are acquired far more quickly than could have been done if that business needed to be built on its own; the resources already exist, and need only be directed/inherited/controlled/etc. It's not just the villainous factions; heck, the Exalted don't find it terribly difficult to conquer towns.
Why, there's infrastructure all over Creation before the Fair Folk even get involved! All one needs do is reach out and conquer/steal/lead/etc. it! (After which, only Fair Folk Resources matter, because all those people foolishly using defined amounts of currency face essentially unlimited inflation. But until then...)

[golentan]

Originally Posted by Turalisj

And ADD too. Oddly, I'm actually my most creative when it's 4am in the morning and I have several cans of coke empty around me


....

I challenge someone to turn that into a charm. Or a martial art style.

By Exhaustion Energized
Cost: - (2m), Mins: Malfeas 0, Essence 3 Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Nightmare Fugue Vigilance

The king of the yozis is a known insomniac, and his paranoia and fear of his own subconscious can hold him back. Hegra sees this tragedy and weeps, and sometimes Malfeas drinks her psychedlic rains and unleashes his true potential in spite of his fears. This charm serves as an "upgrade" to its prerequisite, dropping the maximum willpower that can be regained through sleep to a single point. In exchange for the increased terror that her nightmares hold, however, the warlock is able to spend 2m as a reflexive action when imbibing any poison or intoxicant, from alcohol or caffeine to such exotic delicacies as yozi venom or hegra's rains. The warlock suffers no ill effect from this intoxicant.

For the remainder of the scene, the internal penalty that the warlock would suffer from the combination of sleep deprivation and the poison's penalty in the absence of this charm is inverted, becoming bonus dice to all actions up to a maximum of (essence) dice, which counts against charm limits. Any attempt to impose other internal penalties upon her through charm use or other methods automatically fails, and existing penalties are negated for the scene. At the end of the scene, the warlock collapses into a deep but troubled sleep and cannot be roused for (penalty) days, as well as suffering the full effects of the intoxicant they imbibed. During this period, the warlock can rouse themselves to somnolent action for a scene by spending a point of temporary willpower, but suffers the full -3 penalty for sleep deprivation until they have completed the full rest period.

There, temporary drug and insomnia fueled genius followed by a massive caffeine crash.

[omegalith]

So if I'm getting this right, there's 15 known Yozis, five disturbed Neverborn, an unknown number of relatively quiet Neverborn and two traitor Primordials?

[Draken]

Originally Posted by omegalith

So if I'm getting this right, there's 15 known Yozis, five disturbed Neverborn, an unknown number of relatively quiet Neverborn and two traitor Primordials?

There are 23 Yozis... 11 Neverborn I think? Two traitor primordials, we never really got told what happened to Cemunian, so maybe he is out there too and lastly one primordial that could return to creation at any time and pull a second Ramethus, or not.

[Sanguine]

Originally Posted by Draken

There are 23 Yozis... 11 Neverborn I think?

No there aren't. The number of Primordials, both dead and alive, was intentionally left unspecified.

[omegalith]

As far as I'm aware, the listed Yozi's we know anything about are:

Adorjan
Cecelyne
Cytherea
Ebon Dragon
Elloge
Hegra
Isidoros
Kimbery
Malfeas
Metagaos
Oramus
Qaf
Sacheverell
She Who Lives In Her Name
Szoreny

The Neverborn are more vague, but it is mentioned that five are "active" and the rest are more comatose due to not having been disturbed.

The primordials in general are kinda in a similar position to the Deathlords: Instead of saying "you can change these guys around for your own campaign if you like", they've said "There's also some undetailed ones".

[Jade Dragon]

Originally Posted by omegalith

The Neverborn are more vague,

No, I don't think so.

I've definitely heard one Neverborn name. He Who Holds in Thrall, who was most likely (even more likely since Shards came out) Mardukth, the Mountain and the Beast Upon it.

[Exthalion]

Originally Posted by Jade Dragon

No, I don't think so.

I've definitely heard one Neverborn name. He Who Holds in Thrall, who was most likely (even more likely since Shards came out) Mardukth, the Mountain and the Beast Upon it.

There is also the one the Pelegials serve. Who's Whispers Chain or something like that.

[Sallera]

Wasn't there also one by the name of The Abhorrence of Life, or somesuch? Dowager's maker, as I recall. But aside from names, there isn't much detail on them; less than sane and relatively inactive as they are, I guess not much is really necessary.

[omegalith]

There's confusion as to which titles refer to who, and whether some of them have multiple titles.

Mardukth being He Who Holds In Thrall is pretty concrete though, yes.

[Gensh]

Originally Posted by Sanguine

No there aren't. The number of Primordials, both dead and alive, was intentionally left unspecified.

Well, not quite. The Neverborn, yes, have only the vague figure of five or more but the others are a bit clearer. While left vague earlier in the game line, there are 23 Yozis known to the Deliberative (with possibly more in hiding but probably not), the two confirmed traitors, the other guy who was let go alongside Ramethus, and a theoretically infinite number in the Wyld until that gets retconned like there being infinite raksha.

[omegalith]

Originally Posted by Gensh

Well, not quite. The Neverborn, yes, have only the vague figure of five or more but the others are a bit clearer. While left vague earlier in the game line, there are 23 Yozis known to the Deliberative (with possibly more in hiding but probably not), the two confirmed traitors, the other guy who was let go alongside Ramethus, and a theoretically infinite number in the Wyld until that gets retconned like there being infinite raksha.

Do they really count as Primordials if they weren't involved in the Creation of Creation? That's kinda what defines them as a distinct group from the fae.

[Jade Dragon]

Originally Posted by omegalith

Do they really count as Primordials if they weren't involved in the Creation of Creation? That's kinda what defines them as a distinct group from the fae.

Er, no, what defines Primordials from Fae is that Primordials are permanent and singular. Primordials, by nature, are embodiments of a narrow theme. Fae can be whatever they can imagine, and their minds aren't restricted like Primordial ones. Fae also eventually become the chaos stuff they once were, while Primordials stay. And most importantly, the Primordials are creatures of order, who wield such power that the Fae fear them.

[omegalith]

Originally Posted by Jade Dragon

Er, no, what defines Primordials from Fae is that Primordials are permanent and singular. Primordials, by nature, are embodiments of a narrow theme. Fae can be whatever they can imagine, and their minds aren't restricted like Primordial ones. Fae also eventually become the chaos stuff they once were, while Primordials stay. And most importantly, the Primordials are creatures of order, who wield such power that the Fae fear them.

Fae pick defining themes to play out too, the difference is they don't get set in them and like nothing being permanent or reliable.

I figure it probably went something like:

Theion: "So... Does anyone else think there's maybe too much chaos around here?"

Cecelyne: "I'd agree to that."

Isidoros: "I TRY TO CHARGE IN STRAIGHT LINES. THE LINES BEND. IT IS ANNOYING."

SWLIHN: "Oh good, I thought it was just me."

Random Fae Lord: "sHuN tHE NoNbElIevErs!"

[Exthalion]

As I understand it, they are all Titans. Yozi and Primordial are political terms as is Devil-Tiger and possibly Neverborn.

[Lord Raziere]

um, no, the developers have said that the Primordials and the Raksha are NOT related at all. they are more like two completely different creations of pure improbability that just happen to be diametrically opposed to each other.

V: No, it was directed at omegalith.

[Exthalion]

Originally Posted by Lord Raziere

um, no, the developers have said that the Primordials and the Raksha are NOT related at all. they are more like two completely different creations of pure improbability that just happen to be diametrically opposed to each other.

Just in case this was directed at me: I was responding to the question that they aren't Primordials if they weren't involved in the shaping of Creation.

[Lix Lorn]

Originally Posted by Exthalion

As I understand it, they are all Titans. Yozi and Primordial are political terms as is Devil-Tiger and possibly Neverborn.

I'm pretty sure devil tiger and neverborn aren't. Devil-Tigers have different rules and structures to primordials. They're primordials+

[Plague of Hats]

I'm pretty sure we managed to never say definitively that the titans were just a weird version of Unshaped. It's not a question that the game line ever needed to answer.

As to what makes a titan, by the standards set in Second Edition, one of those General Yozi Charms in Return ended up being the deciding factor. New Devil-Tigers cannot take that Charm, and so cannot become titans, but subsequent incarnations that pursue the Devil-Tiger's cosmic legend could, thereby creating a brand new Primordial.

[omegalith]

Originally Posted by Plague of Hats

I'm pretty sure we managed to never say definitively that the titans were just a weird version of Unshaped. It's not a question that the game line ever needed to answer.

Put it this way: They're clearly not Unshaped, because they clearly have a strongly defined shape... But as both are powerful beings spawned of raw chaos they can be called kin in that they share an origin, and that some of the larger unshaped also have that whole multiple selves due to sheer size thing going on.

Isidoros and She Who Lives In Her Name can barely be said to have anything in common at all besides their multi-soul nature, and I doubt Unshaped are particularly renowned for similarity either.

The reason I said those who didn't take part in the shaping of creation shouldn't really count as Primordials is more because they aren't of the loose grouping of Primordial beings. Might a similarly "shaped", for lack of a better term, Wyld creature count under the broader term of Titan? Probably.

Trying to categorize creatures born of Chaos is a pretty tricky business until they provide you with frames of reference.

Originally Posted by Lix Lorn

I'm pretty sure devil tiger and neverborn aren't. Devil-Tigers have different rules and structures to primordials. They're primordials+

I question this assertion somewhat: A Devil Tiger is essentially a Solaroid who announces a new Titan concept, then shapes himself to effectively be (more or less) it's Fetich, or defining self. He can grow subordinate souls, He's likely more powerful than any normal Fetich and he's got the same ability to think out of theme as Autocthon's self-designed "Fetich 2.0" idea (with better perspective due to starting small and clawing his way to power)...

But ultimately he lacks the ability to form Joutens, the huge world-bodies with in the region of a thousand motes to spend that act as the highest expression of the Titan's concept and will.

There's quite a few upsides a Devil Tiger has over other Titans due to self-defining from humble beginnings one step at a time, but one clear downside as well.

[Lix Lorn]

Originally Posted by omegalith

I question this assertion somewhat: A Devil Tiger is essentially a Solaroid who announces a new Titan concept, then shapes himself to effectively be (more or less) it's Fetich, or defining self. He can grow subordinate souls, He's likely more powerful than any normal Fetich and he's got the same ability to think out of theme as Autocthon's self-designed "Fetich 2.0" idea (with better perspective due to starting small and clawing his way to power)...

But ultimately he lacks the ability to form Joutens, the huge world-bodies with in the region of a thousand motes to spend that act as the highest expression of the Titan's concept and will.

There's quite a few upsides a Devil Tiger has over other Titans due to self-defining from humble beginnings one step at a time, but one clear downside as well.

Well, one could argue that the downside is greater than the ups, but the thrust of my point was that they were different.