I'm not sure if that was on this forum, or maybe even this thread....
But I remember seeing someone discuss the idea that Ocarina of Time, if not maybe one of it's ancestors, could be considered -THE- first Sand Box Game.
Discuss.
How the heck does that work? Ocarina of Time was a quite linear game. You go through each dungeon and event in a particular order, with little to no ability to deviate from that (I think you can reverse the normal order of the Shadow and Spirit Temples, but that's it). There were random areas with loot scattered around and a handful of genuine side-quests, sure, but nowhere near what I'd associate with sandboxes. Just perfectly normal stuff for an adventure game.
Zevox
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"We each decide our own sense of right and wrong. The rest, I leave to my sword." - Yuri Lowell, Tales of Vesperia
How the heck does that work? Ocarina of Time was a quite linear game. You go through each dungeon and event in a particular order, with little to no ability to deviate from that (I think you can reverse the normal order of the Shadow and Spirit Temples, but that's it). There were random areas with loot scattered around and a handful of genuine side-quests, sure, but nowhere near what I'd associate with sandboxes. Just perfectly normal stuff for an adventure game.
Zevox
Dependin on how far you go into each mission temple, there were multiple ways to go through the game. I remember not actually ever getting into the Fire Temple until trying and failing the Shadow Temple one such run. The only constant, assuming no glitching, is that you will always start the first 3 dungeons in the same order, and then get the Hook Shot. That, and the Final Dungeon will be Ganon's Castle. But there's actually a little more ability to deviate from there, not to mention the side quests, which I've never actually completely finished personally. For it's time, it's a bit more advanced than one might assume.
Dependin on how far you go into each mission temple,
I assume you're referring to the possibility that you could enter a temple, get its new item, and then leave, no? Which in theory would allow completing them out-of-order since it's that item which is used to get around new obstacles outside the temple, opening the next path. But why would you do that? Those things are generally halfway through the temple or further anyway, so who would actually just stop and go elsewhere after getting the new item?
Zevox
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"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis
"We each decide our own sense of right and wrong. The rest, I leave to my sword." - Yuri Lowell, Tales of Vesperia
I assume you're referring to the possibility that you could enter a temple, get its new item, and then leave, no? Which in theory would allow completing them out-of-order since it's that item which is used to get around new obstacles outside the temple, opening the next path. But why would you do that? Those things are generally halfway through the temple or further anyway, so who would actually just stop and go elsewhere after getting the new item?
Zevox
Precisely. Plus, the first three dungeons you are kinda railroaded into. The first, because you're basically dropped right on top of it. The next, because you want to see how your buddies are doing, then you run into your old fiancée. Once you get to that point, you can skip around, but it's very difficult to justify going out of order before this point.
In other news, Link was a playah in OoT. There are the following Love Interests:
1) Saria, The Girl Next Door
2) Princess Zelda, the traditional crush
3) Princess Ruto, your betrothed
4) Malon, the Farmer's Daughter
5) Impa, the Amazonian (mostly in the scene pre-entry to the temple).
Also possibly including the gerudo boss chick, depending on how you view things
I mean, come on... talk about a gal in every town.
Nabooru WAY more than Impa! To quote "If only I knew you would become such a handsome man, I should have kept the promise I made back then..."
Anyway, you could argue the original Zelda was a sandbox game. You could do almost any dungeon in any order you wanted to. Items made it easier if you went sequentially, but you don't have to.
I assume you're referring to the possibility that you could enter a temple, get its new item, and then leave, no? Which in theory would allow completing them out-of-order since it's that item which is used to get around new obstacles outside the temple, opening the next path. But why would you do that? Those things are generally halfway through the temple or further anyway, so who would actually just stop and go elsewhere after getting the new item?
Zevox
You can start at the Forest Temple, Fire Temple, or Ice Cavern without going anywhere else (at least once you get the HookShot, if I recall). Once you get the Long Shot or Epona, you should be able to clear the Gerudo Fortress. I'm pretty sure you can also go ahead and check out the Bottom of the Well around this time, too, though I forget if you're locked into adult form until you clear the Forest Temple or not, so that might be required. As might be at least the Fairy Bow + Ice Cavern to do the Water Temple, which was heck without a Tunic.
I do have it on good authority that it took me year to somehow figure out how to do the Fire Temple, and cleared a lot of the other stuff before it. Freaking never realised I was to bomb the gorgon for a while...
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Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost
In other news, Link was a playah in OoT. There are the following Love Interests:
1) Saria, The Girl Next Door
2) Princess Zelda, the traditional crush
3) Princess Ruto, your betrothed
4) Malon, the Farmer's Daughter
5) Impa, the Amazonian (mostly in the scene pre-entry to the temple).
Also possibly including the gerudo boss chick, depending on how you view things
I mean, come on... talk about a gal in every town.
..... I predict an ovewhelming negative response to this, but HEY! LISTEN!
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshL
Nabooru WAY more than Impa! To quote "If only I knew you would become such a handsome man, I should have kept the promise I made back then..."
Ganondorf should have stayed being the pimp of the Gerudos, rather than trying to take over all of creation and pissing off everyone.
You can start at the Forest Temple, Fire Temple, or Ice Cavern without going anywhere else (at least once you get the HookShot, if I recall). Once you get the Long Shot or Epona, you should be able to clear the Gerudo Fortress. I'm pretty sure you can also go ahead and check out the Bottom of the Well around this time, too, though I forget if you're locked into adult form until you clear the Forest Temple or not, so that might be required. As might be at least the Fairy Bow + Ice Cavern to do the Water Temple, which was heck without a Tunic.
None of that applies to sandboxing. As stated earlier.
Quote:
..... I predict an ovewhelming negative response to this, but HEY! LISTEN!
Anyway, you could argue the original Zelda was a sandbox game. You could do almost any dungeon in any order you wanted to. Items made it easier if you went sequentially, but you don't have to.
Can't speak to that one, since I haven't played the first two Zelda games. And am unlikely to, since I've never much been impressed by the older ones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by INoKnowNames
You can start at the Forest Temple, Fire Temple, or Ice Cavern without going anywhere else (at least once you get the HookShot, if I recall). Once you get the Long Shot or Epona, you should be able to clear the Gerudo Fortress.
And good luck getting to or through those - especially Gerudo Fortress - without the bow from the Forest Temple to give you a good ranged weapon. The Longshot is also in the middle of the water temple, if you recall, and yeah, I'm pretty sure it was practically required for the Gerudo Fortress.
Quote:
Originally Posted by INoKnowNames
I'm pretty sure you can also go ahead and check out the Bottom of the Well around this time, too, though I forget if you're locked into adult form until you clear the Forest Temple or not, so that might be required.
It is. Sheik stands in front of the temple pedestal until you clear the Forest Temple, at which point she'll teach you the Requiem of Light and leave so that you can travel back in time if you wish.
Plus I'm pretty sure the Fire Arrow was required for some parts of later temples, which requires either completing the Water Temple or at least the Longshot (which is in the Water Temple anyway) and Scarecrow's Song.
Plus the game tells you where to look for each temple in a certain order, so if you haven't played the game before, you're practically guaranteed to do them that way.
Basically, unless you know the game inside and out, you're unlikely at best to do things any way but in the prescribed order. And even if you do know the game inside and out and can do it, why bother when it involves half-completing some temples and doesn't really change anything?
Zevox
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"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis
"We each decide our own sense of right and wrong. The rest, I leave to my sword." - Yuri Lowell, Tales of Vesperia
How the heck does that work? Ocarina of Time was a quite linear game. You go through each dungeon and event in a particular order, with little to no ability to deviate from that (I think you can reverse the normal order of the Shadow and Spirit Temples, but that's it). There were random areas with loot scattered around and a handful of genuine side-quests, sure, but nowhere near what I'd associate with sandboxes. Just perfectly normal stuff for an adventure game.
Zevox
I have to throw in my 2 rupees here.
Look up the uber quest for OoT it has a very different order to run the temples through.
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Look up the uber quest for OoT it has a very different order to run the temples through.
Just because there are exploits to do things in different orders doesn't mean its a sandbox. It means people are creative in finding solutions to stick it to the intended order and do it differently.
I'd say zelda games could have led to the idea behind sandboxes, but that doesn't mean it is one.
However, I'm starting the uber challenge again...I've beaten it twice this way already, but I have a hankering for it again...
True, it does use exploits, but that does not make it any less of a challenge. Though trying to fight Bongo Bongo without the Lens of Truth is more than a bit difficult, uber quest or not.
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True, it does use exploits, but that does not make it any less of a challenge. Though trying to fight Bongo Bongo without the Lens of Truth is more than a bit difficult, uber quest or not.
No it doesn't make it less of a challenge, true. Bongo Bongo is difficult WITH them. XD
No it doesn't make it less of a challenge, true. Bongo Bongo is difficult WITH them. XD
One of my favorite bosses. How exactly do you fight him without the lens?
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It is very rough. It takes a lot of arrows, a lot of patience, and more than a little skill. Your only saving grace is that he does become visible for the hitting with sword bit.
Otherwise, good luck! (you're gonna need it.
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Plus I'm pretty sure the Fire Arrow was required for some parts of later temples, which requires either completing the Water Temple or at least the Longshot (which is in the Water Temple anyway) and Scarecrow's Song.
Zevox
Din's Fire and normal arrows through lit torches. Fire Arrows aren't needed at all.
Din's Fire and normal arrows through lit torches. Fire Arrows aren't needed at all.
Only works if there are torches around and within range of Din's Fire. I could swear there are points in either the Shadow or Spirit temples where you need fire, but this isn't the case. And I'm certain it's the case in the final dungeon, but by then it's a moot point since you need to have completed all five temples to even enter that.
Zevox
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"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis
"We each decide our own sense of right and wrong. The rest, I leave to my sword." - Yuri Lowell, Tales of Vesperia
Can't actually think of any specific instances when you need fire arrows in either of those. Can't think of any to be honest... They make it EASIER, but not so much that they're invaluable.
Also, can't Din's Fire make his hands visible for a moment so you can see them?
There are no other games which do what Ocarina's Master Quest did (ie: completely changing the dungeon approach and structure) however, Skyward Sword has a mode called Hero Quest built into it.
You unlock it by beating the game once through, then you can play through what is essentially 'Skyward Sword Hard Mode' where the puzzles and challenges are the same, but monsters deal double damage and Link cannot find hearts out in the world to heal himself with (leaving you to resort to potions, or my favourite, stools)
There are no other games which do what Ocarina's Master Quest did (ie: completely changing the dungeon approach and structure) however, Skyward Sword has a mode called Hero Quest built into it.
You unlock it by beating the game once through, then you can play through what is essentially 'Skyward Sword Hard Mode' where the puzzles and challenges are the same, but monsters deal double damage and Link cannot find hearts out in the world to heal himself with (leaving you to resort to potions, or my favourite, stools)
You misunderstand. Uber quest doesn't mean master quest. Uber quest...(though looking now its "uber challenge", my bad) is where you play ocarina of time using handicaps and exploits to make it more difficult. As in the order of the dungeons is significantly change (deku tree, jabu jabu, spirit temple kid, dodongo's cavern, Grow up, shadow temple, fire temple, so on...) and you can't use certain items - megaton hammer save for volvagia, shields in general (like likes and fire keese friends!) and so on. It's basically breaking the game and masacism all in one!
I wanted to know if anyone's been able to do that on any other game.
Hrm, I can't think of anything quite like that, but you may be interested in the Majora's Mask 3 day challenge however.
Should be pretty easy to google, but essentially, after the initial 3 days of being a shrub and getting your ocarina back you restart and then beat the game before the moon falls and without turning back time.
Oh yeah, it's possible just very difficult. You may want to start with watching a youtube playthrough.
It involves lots of running around, partially finishing temples and doing certain challenges in time.
For example, you NEED epona to beat the game, so you have to get your bow, get the goron's mask, get the bombs and then break into Lon-Lon and do that whole quest before even the first day is over.
Plus I'm pretty sure the Fire Arrow was required for some parts of later temples, which requires either completing the Water Temple or at least the Longshot (which is in the Water Temple anyway) and Scarecrow's Song.
To get the Fire Arrows, you need to complete the Water Temple and shoot an arrow at the sun from the grave thing on the central island. That's all.
The Scarecrow's Song is never required for anything beyond a few heart pieces and I think a few Gold Skulltulas.
Not that the Fire Arrows are ever required either (although the shot in the Spirit Chamber of Ganon's Tower is pretty tricky without the Fire Arrows). You do need Din's Fire, though.
The game is obviously designed for you to require both the Fire Arrows and Din's Fire. But... you don't need the Fire Arrows, even if you don't take advantage of exploits.
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To get the Fire Arrows, you need to complete the Water Temple and shoot an arrow at the sun from the grave thing on the central island. That's all.
The Scarecrow's Song is never required for anything beyond a few heart pieces and I think a few Gold Skulltulas.
The Scarecrow's Song can be used to get the Fire Arrows before completing the Water Temple, I mean. There's a scarecrow summon point on the pillar with that grave. I'm pretty sure you need the Longshot to reach it, but with that you can get to that pillar and get the Fire Arrows without completing the Water Temple.
Zevox
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"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis
"We each decide our own sense of right and wrong. The rest, I leave to my sword." - Yuri Lowell, Tales of Vesperia
You misunderstand. Uber quest doesn't mean master quest. Uber quest...(though looking now its "uber challenge", my bad) is where you play ocarina of time using handicaps and exploits to make it more difficult. As in the order of the dungeons is significantly change (deku tree, jabu jabu, spirit temple kid, dodongo's cavern, Grow up, shadow temple, fire temple, so on...) and you can't use certain items - megaton hammer save for volvagia, shields in general (like likes and fire keese friends!) and so on. It's basically breaking the game and masacism all in one!
I wanted to know if anyone's been able to do that on any other game.
Whoah whoah whoah, hold on a second: youcan do the Spirit Temple before becomingan adult!?! And you can do the Shadow Temple as your first adult temple?! I didn't know that...
Then again, someone abused glitches and beat Ganon in about 20 minutes, if I remember right, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I feel like a speed run doesn't count when you break the game in the process. Tool Assisted is one thing, but how an you really call it playing the game when you skip all but the intro and final cutscene essentially?
Whoah whoah whoah, hold on a second: youcan do the Spirit Temple before becomingan adult!?! And you can do the Shadow Temple as your first adult temple?! I didn't know that...
Must be the exploits he mentioned. Normally it's impossible to reach the Spirit Temple as a kid without the appropriate song, which is gained as an adult. Same with reaching the Shadow Temple at all, and the event to gain that is triggered either by beating the three prior temples or possibly just the Water Temple (I've never tried to figure out which, I just do them in the expected order).
Zevox
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"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis
"We each decide our own sense of right and wrong. The rest, I leave to my sword." - Yuri Lowell, Tales of Vesperia
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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Thread of Awesome
How the heck does that work? Ocarina of Time was a quite linear game. You go through each dungeon and event in a particular order, with little to no ability to deviate from that (I think you can reverse the normal order of the Shadow and Spirit Temples, but that's it). There were random areas with loot scattered around and a handful of genuine side-quests, sure, but nowhere near what I'd associate with sandboxes. Just perfectly normal stuff for an adventure game.
