OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

[ChowGuy]

Originally Posted by Doug Lampert

The maximum effective range against non-massed targets SHOULD be a couple hundred feet at most with maybe another few hundred feet against massed targets, but in D&D land sensible armies should open up at the maximum range they can get line of sight at and count on the odd 20 to actually hit.

FWIW, Olympic/FITA competition archery takes place at ranges up to 90m (300 feet) with a target size of 122cm (4 ft). [British] Clout (Long range) archery takes place at a maximum range of 180 yards, with scoring being based on distance from a flag. It dates back to pre-Elizabethan times (at ranges up to 240 yards) when the long bow was a viable weapon of war, and was inherently designed to train for use against "massed targets" since that what sensible armies did.

[Jay R]

Random thoughts, after reading ten pages of thread:

According to Vaarsuvius's theory, Belkar's Favored Enemy is anyone he doesn't lust after.

Originally Posted by theNater

However, Tarquin is guilty of certain crimes. If nothing else, he's plotting (and likely has committed) treason against the Empress of Blood, so there's a potential judge.

Treason is a crime, defined by law. The technicalities of whether or not a given act is treason depend on the legal code - which Tarquin wrote.

Originally Posted by Deepbluediver

Now, if Tarquin had some other significant card up his sleeve to play (blackmail, maybe)...

He does. I don't know what it is, but I'm confident that Tarquin has something else up his sleeve.

Originally Posted by Harbajar

Now for V to *pop* out and Fireball...

If V is within 40 feet of the Holy Word, s/he may not be casting very well at present.

Originally Posted by Doug Lampert

I'd probably actually go for even shorter range than than, something like full effect up to 30' (sneak attack maximum range), and attack at a substantial penalty up to 100' or so (reasonable maximum for light skirmishers vs. other light skirmishers) and end up with 4th edition type ranges.

Longbows aren't a D&D concept created for game balance. They are real bows that have real ranges. The range for an actual weapon should be looked up, not made up.

[Sorator]

Originally Posted by Jay R

Random thoughts, after reading ten pages of thread:

According to Vaarsuvius's theory, Belkar's Favored Enemy is anyone he doesn't lust after.

That doesn't mention anything about favored enemies, actually. (Also, I wouldn't take V's speculations in that strip to be anywhere near accurate, but YMMV.)
Edit: There's an argument that if Belkar cannot differentiate between groups of beings beyond Hate or Lust, he must only have Favored Enemy: Hate; that may be what you're trying to go with? But even V mentions that's only categorizations for the purpose of emotions, not creature type. I'm pretty sure Belkar can tell the difference between a human and a goblin (though he may not care, that's an entirely different issue). Not to mention that it doesn't matter what differentiation Belkar can make; just because you're a blind ranger doesn't mean you get Favored Enemy: Everything I Attack.

If V is within 40 feet of the Holy Word, s/he may not be casting very well at present.

I doubt that V will play any part in this battle, tbh. (Not to mention the issue of line of effect/being able to hear the holy word.)

Longbows aren't a D&D concept created for game balance. They are real bows that have real ranges. The range for an actual weapon should be looked up, not made up.

Spoiler

[Smolder]

Originally Posted by Sorator

I doubt that V will play any part in this battle, tbh. (Not to mention the issue of line of effect/being able to hear the holy word.)

V was probably far enough away not to be hit, but close enough that V and Malack are about to duel on the other side of that steel door.

Blackwing vs Qarr, Round 2

[FujinAkari]

Originally Posted by Sorator

I doubt that V will play any part in this battle, tbh. (Not to mention the issue of line of effect/being able to hear the holy word.)

Why do people keep bringing this up? Holy Word's rules text is very explicit about ignoring line of sight and effecting people regardless of whether they are even aware of it happening.

Originally Posted by Jay R

Longbows aren't a D&D concept created for game balance. They are real bows that have real ranges. The range for an actual weapon should be looked up, not made up.

Because, clearly, when making a game your concern should be if everything is historically precise and accurate, not whether the game is fun.

[EmperorSarda]

Originally Posted by Sorator

Except Durkon, who is standing as close to him as Nale is.

Except Durkon was in the wall and could not see Kilkil. And Kilkil only spoke in conglomeration with the others. Perhaps Durkon could pick out Kilkil's voice among the others, perhaps not. So he isn't that likely to have recognized Kilkil.

[Smolder]

Originally Posted by EmperorSarda

Except Durkon was in the wall and could not see Kilkil. And Kilkil only spoke in conglomeration with the others. Perhaps Durkon could pick out Kilkil's voice among the others, perhaps not. So he isn't that likely to have recognized Kilkil.

And Durkon is also affected by the smoke, so his visibility is low.

I think that Kilkil was blown off-panel for a reason, or punchline, which has yet to be revealed.

Maybe he's dead, but more likely paralyzed and lying in a corner. Banished is a remote possibility.

But at least we now know Kilkil probably isn't some powerhouse in disguise.

[zimmerwald1915]

Originally Posted by Smolder

V was probably far enough away not to be hit, but close enough that V and Malack are about to duel on the other side of that steel door.

Blackwing vs Qarr, Round 2

Why would they duel? Qarr can become invisible, and can hide from V if he really wants, or if Malack bullies him into doing so. V and Malack have no problems with each other personally, and V isn't thinking clearly enough to be suspicious of Malack's presence. Malack, meanwhile, might want to use V to peg Nale while maintaining plausible deniablity for Tarquin as to his involvement.

[Sorator]

Originally Posted by EmperorSarda

Except Durkon was in the wall and could not see Kilkil. And Kilkil only spoke in conglomeration with the others. Perhaps Durkon could pick out Kilkil's voice among the others, perhaps not. So he isn't that likely to have recognized Kilkil.

I was meaning in reference to identifying Tarquin based on his speech, rather than seeing Kilkil. I agree that he probably didn't see/hear the kobold well enough to identify him.

Originally Posted by FujinAkari

Why do people keep bringing this up? Holy Word's rules text is very explicit about ignoring line of sight and effecting people regardless of whether they are even aware of it happening.

As someone else pointed out earlier...

Originally Posted by SRD

Any nongood creature within the area that hears the holy word suffers the following ill effects.

The part that applies regardless of hearing is the banishment, and that only because it explicitly says so:

Originally Posted by SRD

Furthermore, if you are on your home plane when you cast this spell, nongood extraplanar creatures within the area are instantly banished back to their home planes. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours. This effect takes place regardless of whether the creatures hear the holy word. The banishment effect allows a Will save (at a -4 penalty) to negate.

Line of effect may or may not be needed, I honestly don't know that off the top of my head (Thanks Debatra!) Line of effect is needed, (and note I said line of effect, not sight), and hearing the word is also required to be killed/paralyzed/deafened/blinded.

So you're right, it is quite explicit about targets needing to hear it in order to be affected in any way apart from being banished to their home plane.

[Debatra]

Originally Posted by SRD

Area: Nongood creatures in a 40-ft.-radius spread centered on you

Originally Posted by SRD

A spread spell spreads out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.

Line of sight not needed; line of effect needed.

[Akritas]

Are demons immortal in D&D? If so then could Sabine expects to see Nale in the afterlife or plan on making him immortal? Forever seems an odd word to choose for a being who has watched generation after generation of people be born, grow old and die.

Of course, I am probably reading too much into it, but that's what happens when you get a story in little bits at a time.

[zimmerwald1915]

Originally Posted by Akritas

Are demons immortal in D&D? If so then could Sabine expects to see Nale in the afterlife or plan on making him immortal? Forever seems an odd word to choose for a being who has watched generation after generation of people be born, grow old and die.

There's a LG afterlife where souls seem to exist eternally...or at least until they reach "true perfect enlightenment", whatever that means. The souls of the Dark One's army seem to be eternally sustained as well in their afterlife. It seems to me that, in the OOTS-verse, a mortal's soul lives eternally in whatever afterlife they end up in.

[Akritas]

That I figured. What makes me curious is if Sabine can still be with Nale in whatever afterlife he ends up in, I wasn't really thinking in terms of Nale leaving his afterlife is be with her.

[RustyVenture]

Originally Posted by Akritas

Are demons immortal in D&D? If so then could Sabine expects to see Nale in the afterlife or plan on making him immortal? Forever seems an odd word to choose for a being who has watched generation after generation of people be born, grow old and die.

Of course, I am probably reading too much into it, but that's what happens when you get a story in little bits at a time.

Now, I've never played a game of DnD in my life. However, I think I'm right when I say just like Celia, Sabine is an outsider. And we have confirmation from Celia here that outsiders can't be raised from the dead. And the srd20 website says it takes a spell like miracle or wish or something to bring an outsider back.

So if demons are outsiders, which I think they are, then they are not immortal as they can be killed. They don't grow old and die, however. If Nale is Chaotic Evil and goes to that afterlife, then Sabine should be able to be with him there forever, assuming she isn't killed... and assuming Nale's soul isn't taken by Malack.

[Kish]

Originally Posted by Akritas

Are demons immortal in D&D?

Do they age or die of natural causes? No.

Can they be killed? Ambiguous (see panel 11).

[Gift Jeraff]

Hmm, I'm starting to think that after tattling on Sabine, Qarr was given an order to eventually pit Nale against Sabine because she knows too much and her loyalty is questionable. It'd be fitting, too: She was sent to tap out his evil potential, and in doing so she made him Evil enough to kill the one person closest to him.

[Jay R]

Originally Posted by FujinAkari

Because, clearly, when making a game your concern should be if everything is historically precise and accurate, not whether the game is fun.

Actually, your guess about my line of reasoning turns out to be completely inaccurate.

In fact, I do not believe that fun requires ignorance of facts. I can actually have fun in a game which is well-informed and accurate. In fact, I have had fun playing D&D under rules that gave long ranges to longbows. Lots of people have enjoyed playing D&D under the current rules.

So your accusation that I believe game design should not be concerned with fun is simply untrue.

Wouldn't it have made more sense for you to ask for my motives, instead of making up a guess that is easy to disprove?

If somebody wrote a game in which swords were used to wash dishes, longbows were used to clean floors, and dishcloths were weapons with 500 foot range, most people would consider that bad design, and would have less fun trying to understand the absurd rules.

Nobody with any knowledge of dishcloths believes that they are weapons with a 500 foot range, and nobody with any knowledge of longbows believes that they have a short range.

But I won't guess about your motives. Would you please explain why you believe that rules for long-range weapons indicate that the designers had no concern for "whether the game is fun"?

[RustyVenture]

So Nale is completely deafened, and as Belkar confirmed, all they hear is "silence." So there's no way Nale could have heard Sabine if she audibly said "I love you" and "forever." However, the srd20 states that succubi have telepathy, so is it possible that Nale heard those last two things from Sabine? The text isn't in speech bubbles, but Sabine's mouth is open and the words are similar in design to the mummies' speech in the previous strips. I was wondering how others interpreted that?

I just can't shake the feeling that this may be the last time they ever see each other, given Malack desire for Nale's soul.

[jere7my]

Originally Posted by Jay R

If somebody wrote a game in which swords were used to wash dishes, longbows were used to clean floors, and dishcloths were weapons with 500 foot range, most people would consider that bad design, and would have less fun trying to understand the absurd rules.

Jay R, Kingdom of Loathing. Kingdom of Loathing, Jay R.

[turkishproverb]

Originally Posted by ghoul-n

So, Tarquin wasn't affected at all.

How can you be so sure? So far he's only reacted to things likely visible.

[kickassfrog]

Absolutely beautiful.
And what's better, they found a way that deafening the little psychopath worked to everyone's advantage.
Belarus can kill Nale in a magic less fight, right?

Edit: will Tarquin kill Belkar to protect Nale?
(personally I was hoping for an Elan vs Nale death match, where T had to intervene to save one at the cost of the other, but this would be cool, too

[kickassfrog]

Originally Posted by turkishproverb

How can you be so sure? So far he's only reacted to things likely visible.

"Unless they're strong enough to resist, like I am"
Seems unaffected, too

Originally Posted by Smolder

And Durkon is also affected by the smoke, so his visibility is low.

I think that Kilkil was blown off-panel for a reason, or punchline, which has yet to be revealed.

Maybe he's dead, but more likely paralyzed and lying in a corner. Banished is a remote possibility.

But at least we now know Kilkil probably isn't some powerhouse in disguise.

Unless, like Z, kilkil is custom build to be particularly good at dealing with one class. Say, dual wielding murderous halfling barbarian rangers.
Doubtful, since his primary job probably gives a bad tax return or something as his most challenging problem, but you could see the irony.

[Umberhulk]

As one of the three permanent members of the Linear Guild, Sabine is an important villain, so I don't think its close enough to the end of the strip to kill her off. I think this will result in a sit-down with her higher ups, or Quarr's.

[turkishproverb]

Originally Posted by kickassfrog

"Unless they're strong enough to resist, like I am"
Seems unaffected, too

My bad. Missed the obvious.

[chessdudeguy]

Originally Posted by Umberhulk

As one of the three permanent members of the Linear Guild, Sabine is an important villain, so I don't think its close enough to the end of the strip to kill her off. I think this will result in a sit-down with her higher ups, or Quarr's.

I don't think the question here is "will Sabine die?" Since she is A. already out of the battle without being killed, and B. involved in the still unexplored IIFC plot.
But Nale on the other hand is looking like he's in pretty poor shape, getting wrecked by Belkar and all. If one of them goes down, it would still be the last time they saw each other.
Anyway, as for the OP, I don't think we'll have a real chance to find out. Like I said before, I think Nale's going to die in the near future, and I doubt it would be brought up over that time. As always, only time will tell.

[ferrodoxin]

What does your humble opinion say about Belkar being level 16?

(Twelfth level was a barbarian level; Belkar has had the experience point penalty--which is 20%, not 10%--ever since then.)

Ghostwise halfling?

[FujinAkari]

Originally Posted by Jay R

But I won't guess about your motives. Would you please explain why you believe that rules for long-range weapons indicate that the designers had no concern for "whether the game is fun"?

Nope, because you are putting words in my mouth, and I have no desire to fill in the blanks for a strawman argument you are attempting to refute.

My statement is and continues to be that the chief concern of game designers should be to make a balanced and fun game, not a historically accurate one. If the two are both possible, great. If not, I can tell you exactly how much sleep I will lose over the loss of the latter.

[FujinAkari]

Originally Posted by Jay R

But I won't guess about your motives. Would you please explain why you believe that rules for long-range weapons indicate that the designers had no concern for "whether the game is fun"?

Nope, because I never said anything even remotely like that. I just noted that

Originally Posted by Jay R

They are real bows that have real ranges. The range for an actual weapon should be looked up, not made up.

is the wrong way to go about game design.

[Ridureyu]

Originally Posted by Jay R

Actually, your guess about my line of reasoning turns out to be completely inaccurate.

In fact, I do not believe that fun requires ignorance of facts. I can actually have fun in a game which is well-informed and accurate. In fact, I have had fun playing D&D under rules that gave long ranges to longbows. Lots of people have enjoyed playing D&D under the current rules.

So your accusation that I believe game design should not be concerned with fun is simply untrue.

Wouldn't it have made more sense for you to ask for my motives, instead of making up a guess that is easy to disprove?

If somebody wrote a game in which swords were used to wash dishes, longbows were used to clean floors, and dishcloths were weapons with 500 foot range, most people would consider that bad design, and would have less fun trying to understand the absurd rules.

Nobody with any knowledge of dishcloths believes that they are weapons with a 500 foot range, and nobody with any knowledge of longbows believes that they have a short range.

But I won't guess about your motives. Would you please explain why you believe that rules for long-range weapons indicate that the designers had no concern for "whether the game is fun"?

But I use swords to wash dishes all the time! Swords are my favorite dishwasher. I just swing and swing and swing and I never have to wash the dishes again!



Yes, I came out of lurking just because that one phrase got me laughing so hard.

[TaRix]

Besides, a bow's maximum range in a hallway is much less than in an open battlefield... a longbow (and every other missile weapon) shoots parabolically, and its maximum-distance shot would look like a taller (thirty-to-forty-five-degree perhaps) arc.
But in the stickverse, they go like laser-pointers. Fine with me.