OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread

[Boogastreehouse]

Originally Posted by Kazyan

If Belkar was hiding in the trapdoor and was affected by the Holy Word, where do you suppose the Order is keeping Mr. Scruffy? The cat has 4 1/2 HD at most, and that's instakill territory for Holy Word. Maybe he's with Elan.

Where is Mr. Scruffy, you ask?

Spoiler

I would argue that a creature with animal intelligence would be unable to understand concepts of alignment and would therefore be unaffected by holy word.

[Kish]

Sabine is a thoroughly house-ruled succubus. She has never demonstrated telepathy and there is not the slightest indication that her speech bubble represented anything other than speech when she was desperately trying to talk to Nale and he was bellowing, "WHAT?" just now.

[Kish]

Originally Posted by FujinAkari

Nope, because I never said anything even remotely like that. I just noted that is the wrong way to go about game design.

There is some indication that Rich disagrees.

(Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tails spoiler):

Spoiler

4ed-Haley commenting that someone needs to google "historical crossbow range," and Rich's title for that strip commenting that it was very quick for him to do so.

[Unisus]

Originally Posted by TaRix

Besides, a bow's maximum range in a hallway is much less than in an open battlefield... a longbow (and every other missile weapon) shoots parabolically, and its maximum-distance shot would look like a taller (thirty-to-forty-five-degree perhaps) arc.
But in the stickverse, they go like laser-pointers. Fine with me.

Not sure about the distances here, but as an archer i can say that in "normal" range a bow shoots pretty straight - of course, a maximum range shot will be parabolical, but i don't remember to see something in the comic where a max distance shot went along a straight line.

[zimmerwald1915]

Originally Posted by Unisus

Not sure about the distances here, but as an archer i can say that in "normal" range a bow shoots pretty straight - of course, a maximum range shot will be parabolical, but i don't remember to see something in the comic where a max distance shot went along a straight line.

This good enough?

[EmperorSarda]

Originally Posted by Smolder

But at least we now know Kilkil probably isn't some powerhouse in disguise.

This has been a legitimate concern?

Originally Posted by Sorator

I was meaning in reference to identifying Tarquin based on his speech, rather than seeing Kilkil. I agree that he probably didn't see/hear the kobold well enough to identify him.

Except Elan heard his dad speak, and didn't recognize him then. So most likely Durkon hasn't either.

[stsasser]

Originally Posted by Ridureyu

But I use swords to wash dishes all the time! Swords are my favorite dishwasher. I just swing and swing and swing and I never have to wash the dishes again!



Yes, I came out of lurking just because that one phrase got me laughing so hard.

Changes the meaning of 'throw in the sponge', don't it?

In fact, facts are overrated.

[Jay R]

Originally Posted by FujinAkari

Nope, because you are putting words in my mouth, and I have no desire to fill in the blanks for a strawman argument you are attempting to refute.

My statement is and continues to be that the chief concern of game designers should be to make a balanced and fun game, not a historically accurate one. If the two are both possible, great. If not, I can tell you exactly how much sleep I will lose over the loss of the latter.

The chief concern of game designers should be to make a fun game for all of their buyers, not to ignore many buyers because FujinAkari is the only one whose opinion matters.

As long as there are gamers who know what longbows are and how they work, and who want to play a game with longbows that act like longbows, then a desire for a fun game includes some degree of historical accuracy.

[And a new rule shortening the range of longbows, thereby reducing the abilities of Fighters and Rogues, but not casters, does not contribute to balance.]

But my view of game design states that they should design for you just as much as for me. So I have to ask: why do you think a game with inaccurate longbows is more fun than one with accurate longbows?

[Unisus]

Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915

This good enough?

Ok, didn't remeber that one.

But if Haley had a real longbow (i mean the 6-foot English longbow), that shot would have been a direct shot with only a slight bend downwards. With Haley's bow on the other hand - yes, she would have had to make a ballistic shot.

[Adeptus]

One of the most satisfying and funny OotS strips of all time

[Jay R]

Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915

This good enough?

In a comic strip in which a straight line can represent all the bone structure, musculature, flesh, and clothing of a human arm or a leg, I don't think we can trust any analysis based on how a line is drawn.

[Gauscrypts]

Originally Posted by Finagle

Sofa!

Nale should have cast Charm Person instead of Suggestion. Then Belkar would at least regard him as an ally.

How is it that Z'zdtri can't cast spells while deafened, but Nale can?

If Nale is deaf, how can he hear Belkar say "WHAT?"

Why is a succubus, an ancient being of pure evil, in love with a mortal? Sabine is a shapeshifter, she only appears fair in form because she wants to.

Even when you can't hear anything, the facial expression of someone who can't hear you is easy to read, and with the cue from Belkar's mouth movement it makes sense that Nale could piece together him saying "WHAT?"

Why do you think Sabine is ancient? And think you not that love is also a villain's motivator, as with Darth Vader, Marcus Brutus, and numerous vampires? For indeed it is a valid emotion for evildoers.

[jere7my]

Originally Posted by Jay R

The chief concern of game designers should be to make a fun game for all of their buyers, not to ignore many buyers because FujinAkari is the only one whose opinion matters.

As long as there are gamers who know what longbows are and how they work, and who want to play a game with longbows that act like longbows, then a desire for a fun game includes some degree of historical accuracy.

[And a new rule shortening the range of longbows, thereby reducing the abilities of Fighters and Rogues, but not casters, does not contribute to balance.]

But my view of game design states that they should design for you just as much as for me. So I have to ask: why do you think a game with inaccurate longbows is more fun than one with accurate longbows?

This is a baffling argument. "I like games with superheroes, and you like games with gunslingers. Game designers need to please all their customers, so games should have superheroes." Is that about right?

Anyway, the "realism" argument was going on thirty years ago in the pages of Dragon, and it was just as pointless then. People wrote multi-page articles about falling damage and whether it should be calculated linearly or geometrically, then other people wrote multi-page rebuttals, and people wrote letters to the forum, and it went on forever.

Here's the thing: D&D doesn't simulate reality. There are games that attempt that, and more power to 'em, but D&D was designed to simulate heroic pulp fantasy. That means that "Does this fit with the real world?" is a fundamentally misguided question — the question should be "Does this fit the tropes of heroic fantasy?" In heroic fantasy, heroes can fall from great heights, dragons can fly despite the square-cube law, and archers can shoot longbows at point-blank range. Why? Because it's cool, because Legolas could do it in the movies, because D&D is about imagining yourself performing impossible feats.

If you prefer realism, feel free to house-rule it, or play a different system. But saying that a D&D rule is bad because it's unrealistic is as pointless as complaining about banking X-Wings in a Star Wars RPG or saying "Superman would've given Lois whiplash if he stopped her fall like that!" in a golden-age superhero RPG. It's not a question of realism; it's a question of genre.

[Finagle]

Originally Posted by Gauscrypts

Why do you think Sabine is ancient?

Spoiler

In one of the books, it is stated that Sabine is over 2000 years old.

And think you not that love is also a villain's motivator, as with Darth Vader, Marcus Brutus, and numerous vampires? For indeed it is a valid emotion for evildoers.

Sure, obviously. Tarquin/Elan. Nobody's arguing that, least of all me. The question is why an ancient otherworldy being of evil falls in love with a puny mortal who's just going to die in another 50 years anyway, alignment issues aside.

[Kish]

Originally Posted by kickassfrog

Unless, like Z, kilkil is custom build tone particularly good at dealing with one class. Say, dual wielding murderous halfling barbarian rogues.
Doubtful, since his primary job probably gives a bad tax return or something as his most challenging problem, but you could see the irony.

Especially when Belkar effortlessly killed him, laughing, "Too bad for you I'm not a rogue!"

Originally Posted by ferrodoxin

Ghostwise halfling?

That all depends on which is more likely. That Rich will want to make a joke about Belkar being an obscure subrace halfling. Or that Rich will want to make a joke about the multiclassing rules and Belkar being stupid.

One of these looks way more likely than the other to me.

[DougTheHead]

Originally Posted by Jay R

If somebody wrote a game in which swords were used to wash dishes, longbows were used to clean floors, and dishcloths were weapons with 500 foot range, most people would consider that bad design, and would have less fun trying to understand the absurd rules.

Sorry, but that sounds like an awesome game, and I would buy it immediately if it came out.

For what it's worth, I don't think the previous poster was impugning your motives or saying that you didn't want to have fun. He was simply pointing out that in this instance, the desire for historical accuracy would necessarily make the game less fun. The same could be said about any damage model that wanted to realistically depict the way wounds affect people- if you used a realistic damage model, everyone in both parties would be incapacitated or dying within two rounds, and would need to rest for about a month to recover from their wounds, making rolls against infection every day. I doubt most people would find this realistic system as fun as the current one.

[zimmerwald1915]

Originally Posted by Finagle

Sure, obviously. Tarquin/Elan. Nobody's arguing that, least of all me. The question is why an ancient otherworldy being of evil falls in love with a puny mortal who's just going to die in another 50 years anyway, alignment issues aside.

Love isn't reasonable.

Besides, mortal souls in the OOTSworld afterlife seem to persist for an arbitrarily long amount of time.

[FujinAkari]

Originally Posted by Jay R

The chief concern of game designers should be to make a fun game for all of their buyers, not to ignore many buyers because FujinAkari is the only one whose opinion matters.

I certainly never siad only my opinion mattered, and I have to question why you are making up completely implausible arguments and attempting to attribute them to me. I'll politely ask you to stop.

As long as there are gamers who know what longbows are and how they work, and who want to play a game with longbows that act like longbows, then a desire for a fun game includes some degree of historical accuracy.

[And a new rule shortening the range of longbows, thereby reducing the abilities of Fighters and Rogues, but not casters, does not contribute to balance.]

But my view of game design states that they should design for you just as much as for me. So I have to ask: why do you think a game with inaccurate longbows is more fun than one with accurate longbows?

And... none of this matters a whit to me. My comment has nothing to do with longbow range, historical accuracy, changes to existing rules, or the price of tea in china. My comment is about

Originally Posted by Jay R

They are real bows that have real ranges. The range for an actual weapon should be looked up, not made up.

being the wrong way to go about game design. ((I do believe I've mentioned this before, but you keep trying to engage me in arguments which I'm not making, so apparently I need to re-iterate))

Historical Accuracy is well and good, but should (nearly) never be the standard. The standard of a game is fun, and however you arrive at fun depends on your audience, theme, and setting. D&D represents a world of swords, sorcery, fantastical heroes, and mythic monsters. It is not attempting to be a realistic depiction of medieval combat, and therefore gamers who seek such systems are much better off looking for it in other games which do specialize in that.

D&D needs to look at whether a given mechanic is fair within the system. If so, and that mechanic is historically accurate... well whoop-de-do. If not, then thats fine. D&D makes no promises towards historical accuracy, and so they simply need to focus on balance and enjoyability. Simply plugging in real numbers and letting the game be as broken as it falls because

Originally Posted by Jay R

Real bows have real ranges. The range for an actual weapon should be looked up

is absolutely atrocious game design.

[Gift Jeraff]

Originally Posted by Finagle

Sabine is a shapeshifter, she only appears fair in form because she wants to.

In one of the bonus strips, a fiend she hasn't seen in 2000 years recognizes her, so I think it's safe to assume that the fiendish form we usually see her in is indeed her true form, or at least not a form she took on specifically for Nale.

[semi]

Probably should put this in the Belkar will die because... thread so I apologize but what about this hypothesis:

Nale was successful in the Suggestion spell and that spell remains in effect after the deafness of the Holy Word spell wears off.

Nale reissues the Kill the Dwarf command and now Belkar is forced into compliance.

None of the OoTS know of this spell and think that it's just Belkar finally giving in to his Chaotic Evilness and they intercede on Durkon's behalf to keep him from getting dead.

During that melee Durkon could be killed as could Belkar (heck, Malack could even show up and coup de grace Belkar for seeing him kill Durkon) but the OoTS would refuse to resurrect Belkar because he 'Finally showed his true colors' and none of the Linear Guild or anyone else would attempt to convince them otherwise.

[FujinAkari]

Originally Posted by semi

Probably should put this in the Belkar will die because... thread so I apologize but what about this hypothesis:

Nale was successful in the Suggestion spell and that spell remains in effect after the deafness of the Holy Word spell wears off.

Nale reissues the Kill the Dwarf command and now Belkar is forced into compliance.

Originally Posted by 3.5 SRD

A language-dependent spell uses intelligible language as a medium for communication. If the target cannot understand or cannot hear what the caster of a language-dependant spell says the spell fails.

The spell failed, since Belkar couldn't hear. Nale won't be able to simply re-issue the suggestion. I'd certainly presume that the swirly eyed-ness is for humor, not to suggest the suggestion somehow took hold, but not quite yet. Certainly possible, but I'm not betting on it :P

[TaRix]

Ach. Guess I was wrong in a couple of places. Here's Haley with an arcing shot: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0059.html

[eilandesq]

Originally Posted by EmperorSarda

This has been a legitimate concern?



Except Elan heard his dad speak, and didn't recognize him then. So most likely Durkon hasn't either.

Listening is a Wisdom based skill. As Durkon is a middle-upper level cleric (WIS casting stat) with at least three (possibly four) level based stat adds and quite possibly magic items that augment his Wisdom further, I would guess that Durkon has an extra +6 or +7 on his Listen roll as opposed to Elan (who probably has a Wisdom no higher than 8 from observation over the years). Also, Elan only heard that one sentence at close range while Durkon heard several in a short period. This all assumes that neither man invested skill points in Listen--a reasonable assumption also based on observation.

[rewinn]

Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915

Love isn't reasonable.

Besides, mortal souls in the OOTSworld afterlife seem to persist for an arbitrarily long amount of time.

Yes, indeed. PLUS: literature is full of cases of immortals falling in love with mortals. Plot points and tragedy often ensues. Perhaps Nale/Sabine are just the starcrossed victims of a genre - kind of an evil Aragorn/Arwen thing!

[dps]

Originally Posted by jere7my

Here's the thing: D&D doesn't simulate reality. There are games that attempt that, and more power to 'em, but D&D was designed to simulate heroic pulp fantasy. That means that "Does this fit with the real world?" is a fundamentally misguided question — the question should be "Does this fit the tropes of heroic fantasy?"

Actually, the combat system of DnD was originally a minatures wargame system. TSR had a set of minatures rules for medieval warfare, and they got the idea to add fantasy elements, and the RPG as we know it was born. So originally, the combat system was supposed to simulate reality.

Of course, we're a long way from original DnD at this point.

[Kish]

Originally Posted by dps

Actually, the combat system of DnD was originally a minatures wargame system. TSR had a set of minatures rules for medieval warfare, and they got the idea to add fantasy elements, and the RPG as we know it was born. So originally, the combat system was supposed to simulate reality.

The last sentence there seems a non-sequitur.

Originally, the combat system was supposed to be a wargame, with perfectly balanced sides and considerably less concern with verisimilitude than modern D&D possesses. I wish you much luck finding a wargame that simulates reality, or tries to very hard.

[jere7my]

Originally Posted by dps

Actually, the combat system of DnD was originally a minatures wargame system. TSR had a set of minatures rules for medieval warfare, and they got the idea to add fantasy elements, and the RPG as we know it was born. So originally, the combat system was supposed to simulate reality.

Of course, we're a long way from original DnD at this point.

Yeah, Chainmail was a long way from trying to simulate reality at the time, though. IIRC, figures were healthy, wounded, or dead, and that was that, for instance. Magic spells were introduced to simulate artillery (fireball) and rifles (lightning bolt). The super-fiddly tabletop miniature simulations came later.

[Sorator]

Regarding the longbow discussion, can I just bring up the catgirl point once again? Just... just sayin'. (Also, remember that houserules are easy and almost painless to make, if it's really bothering you that much, Jay R.)

Originally Posted by EmperorSarda

Except Elan heard his dad speak, and didn't recognize him then. So most likely Durkon hasn't either.

Fair point. Though as others have said, Durkon's heard several lines instead of just one, and lines that are... more displaying of personality than the one Elan heard, and Durkon likely has a higher Listen bonus anyway. So I'll still stick with Roy knowing who Tarquin is by the end of this current battle.

[Sorator]

While you're right that those last few lines were a bit odd, not having a speech bubble, considering that Nale didn't react in any way consistent with actually hearing them, I think that was just a side effect of Sabine being forcibly banished from the Material Plane.

[Kish]

Jay R is not the one who objected to the existing D&D rules. Although he might, the current argument started with him making this post in reply to this post. His objection was to Doug Lampert's proposed house rules; he has not to my knowledge expressed an opinion on the D&D rules.