She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

[sirpercival]

This is absolutely awesome. Why do you keep making stuff that I want to add to Magipunk? Like, this should replace my Magitechnician in several dozen ways. Why couldn't you post this months ago when I was working on that? :P

[bobthe6th]

revealing a hidden post

[jseah]

Ahahaha, this is what I get for not reading properly and doing too much math too fast. I just glanced at it and thought "oh, this is exactly the same as this other game in engine design, right, useless", with the assumption that Bulk = mass and Push = newtons.

I had assumed the higher speeds were for the purpose of the Ballistic engine, which can easily make the projectile do it. And I think this is still mostly due to the Ballistic engine.


So revision time.

Let's see. A Tiny object being 2x2x2 (since 8 cubic feet = tiny as per the text) and a Medium is 5x5x5 (since that's the space of a medium creature).

So you can fit 15.625 engines into a Medium object and thus it scales less than linearly. The exact scaling would be:

Starting from a Medium object, assuming each size category expands 5ft along each axis, then the number of engines you can fit into a space of X-1 categories above medium (where Medium size has X = 1) is:
X^3 * 15.625

The bulk of each size category (assuming Medium and up):
(4+X)^3

Therefore, the push to bulk ratio scales with size category according to:
X^3 * 15.625 * (4+X)^-3
I made a nice graph:

Spoiler

Blue is the linear scaling line, this is Medium sized and = 1/8.
Red is the actual Push to Bulk scaling. So for any particular X size of engines, this will move the Y axis number * 8 times faster than a Medium size engine block.
An engine size at X = 25 would be 10 times as efficient (and go 10 times as fast) as an engine at X = 3 (where the scale is roughly 1).

Ok, since Bulk per volume goes down as size goes up, I can only conclude that bigger objects are actually easier to move per ton than smaller objects. (either that or Push works differently depending on the size of an object pushed)

I forsee alot of arguments over what is considered "an object".

EDIT:
Some playing around with the formula indicates that ~15 is the maximum scaling you can get. This is around X = 300 or so (this is a cube about half a kilometer on each side) and after that the rise starts to get really really slow (16 is not reached even by X = 1E20) or even asymptotic.

So yes, there does exist a maximum speed (even if not capped by the table) due to weirdness with the scaling.

[Garryl]

Originally Posted by Ziegander

This is far too much for me to comprehend at once. It is maddening! Maddening I tell you!

And also wonderful.

I have one suggestion: Allow multiple Gramarists preparing the same principle to halve the preparation time required as an option instead of simply doubling the scope. If two Gramarists can achieve double the wonders in the same time, why can they not produce a normal result in half the time?

If two cooks can make two 3-minute eggs in 3 minutes, why can't they make one 3-minute egg in 90 seconds?

[Eldan]

Hm. I don't see any way of directly affecting organic matter (though I still haven't read most of this). I suppose that would be the cook's problem

[jseah]

Have been too caught up with the awesomeness, missed asking my usual set of questions.

Things that need to be defined:

What is an 'object'?
What is a 'point in space'?


They seem obvious and you can gloss over it in a standard adventuring dungeon crawl game, but with excessive magic flying about (and there certainly is here), answering these questions is required.

[Welknair]

I am continuously impressed by your work, Kellus. I approve of this addition to the realm of Magitech.

I very much look forward to seeing the PrCs you have coming. I'll see if I can find the time to give it a more thorough read through and review a bit later.

[Answerer]

As an electrical engineer, I have to object to the way transmuting something into a conductive metal causes it to take more damage from electricity. Electricity damages (nonliving) things by heating it, and electricity causes the most heat when it has to fight through more resistance. Lowering the resistance should decrease the damage it takes.

This is why you stick a lightning rod (made of something conductive like iron) on a building (made of something not particularly conductive, like stone or wood) – the electricity can pass easily (and therefore cooly) through the iron, without causing the immense heat that can damage stone or wood. (Electricity also preferentially flows through the "path of least resistance" since it involves burning less energy to get through it.)

For reference, the power dissipated by electricity passing through a material is equal to the current times the voltage. Current itself is equal to the voltage divided by the resistance, so the power is the voltage squared divided by the resistance, for a given voltage. Thus, higher resistance means more power dissipated as heat, means more damage to the object in question.

(If you're talking about a constant current, then you'd get the current squared times the resistance, which would mean more power for higher resistance, but in the vast majority of situations electricity is caused by a voltage difference, not some magically-constant current. Getting a constant current under different loads requires a voltage source that has a feedback loop designed to maintain that current.)

(Also, I've heard it said that humans are more gravely affected by current than by voltage. I don't know the biology of this, but if you could reduce the resistance of the human body, you'd be increasing the current that goes through it for a given voltage, thus leading to more damage. But less burning, more of the electrical current messing with the electrical systems of your body.)

(As a final note, being encased in something conductive also protects you from electricity. Because the electricity can flow around you more easily than it can flow through you, very little current actually passes through you. In the ideal case, none does; this is called a Faraday cage, and in such cases the voltage difference around you is zero, because the cage is conducting the electricity so efficiently.

This is why you are generally safe from lightning inside of a car: even if your car was to be hit by the lightning, the electricity would pass straight through the steel cage around you to the ground. The only place it would bother having to fight through higher resistance is the last jump, either through the tires or through the air between the car and the ground. That last step would cause a lot of heat, since both are excellent insulators; I imagine a lot of tires pop in such situations. But unless you're hiding under the car, you won't be anywhere near that power dissipation.)

[Qwertystop]

I have no words.

Partly because this is confusing to my mildly-tired brain, but still.

THERE ARE NO WORDS.

[Merchant]

The only thing I would like to see is for a race that has this as a favored class and feats for both the class and the race.

On top of that I love this. I'm reading it a second time to get my head around all the rules for each principle. Is it possible to simply power all these devices by using the eldritch blast?

I was wondering if it was possible, to create 'something' that allows the Gramarist to throw an enemy at mach 3? It is a scary thought but is it even possible?

[Eldan]

Hm. Goblins and Gnomes are the classical technology races.

[Zale]

I WANT TO PLAY A GOBLIN GRAMARIST AND BLOW EVERYTHING UP.

Hehehehehehehhehe.

Or just blast it to hell and back.

[Eldan]

Scratch that.

Warforged Gramarist.

With plating of alchemetric metals.

And eldrikinetic transformer components.

[Zale]

Originally Posted by Eldan

Scratch that.

Warforged Gramarist.

With plating of alchemetric metals.

And eldrikinetic transformer components.

I want to make a mad scientist now.

I really really do.

Srsly.

[Silva Stormrage]

Just finished reading through the class, though I don't understand what this class does low levels . It doesn't seem to be able to do much other than spam eldritch blast. At high levels I can see him making a tank or flying jet and cannons but he needs too many principles to do that at low levels. Is that intended?

Edit: Also what is the weight for a cubic feet of all the materials? I couldn't find a weight in the SRD for things like silver and gold and had to google them. Are the special materials like sunmetal the same weight as the material that made them (in this case gold)?

[Morcleon]

First, this is awesome. I love it. Add in epic levels, and let the insanity begin...

Questions:
1. What is the temperature of phlogiston? How far does it radiate heat?

2. Can you combine phlogiston with a ARCD 350 ice input transformer to generate an infinite source of ebbs? Blue ice, preferably with an ALCH 101 heat capacity decrease...

3. Can kaleidomantic filters be shaped into spheres, cubes and other hollow shapes?

4. If two arcanodynamic transformers have the same area of net, say a silver and an ice, and a polar ray is cast into the area, which net takes precedence?

5. Can a heuristical circuit reach into an open extradimensional space (a bag of holding, an enveloping pit, etc.)? What about a closed one?

6. How does one extract/store ebbs in orichalcum?

7. Can't you simply take five transformers (one each crystal, copper, tin, ice, mercury) and give yourself universal energy immunity for a ridiculously low price?

8. For spectroconstruction, is the "+3 for every additional time per day you activate it" a +3 to your check or a +3 to the DC?

9. Can you put the number of daily uses next to the "Spectroconstruction" entry on the table (1/day, 2/day, etc.) so it's a bit easier to tell without having to count the number of previous entries?

10. What are specialists of each discipline called? Perhaps... Alchemaster, Arcanodynamicist, Eldrikineticist, Heuristicist, Imachinater, Kaleidomancer, Yggdratect)

11. What is the significance of the maximum speeds for the larger objects? Is it an arbitrary number based on size, or is there an equation behind them?

12. Is there a way to increase the fly maneuverability for a two-part engine?

13. Can you upgrade an existing item's skill check/bubble? How would one go about doing this?

14. Do arcanodynamics transformers have to be 1 cu ft? Can they be smaller?

15. Would the following arrangement work?

Spoiler

Materials required:
1 enveloping pit
A lot of blue ice and iron.
A bit of silver and wood.

1. Fill the enveloping pit with an array of iron and heat-capacity-decreased blue ice. Use ALCH 364 and ARCD 350 to turn them into phlogiston and ice transformers respectively. This should generate an arbitrarily large number of ebbs per round.

3. Use ARCD 101 to make a silver output transformer and connect it to the giant battery with a wood transformer.

4. Shoot something for damage equal to (UMD check)d6.

5. Repeat each round until target is dead, or has run away.

[Zale]

Originally Posted by Morcleon

7. Can't you simply take five transformers (one each crystal, copper, tin, ice, mercury) and give yourself universal energy immunity for a ridiculously low price?

You'd need to be a Specialist in Arcanodynamics. And keep the ice from melting or the mercury from melting.

And have a high enough UMD check to channel all the energy.

[Morcleon]

Originally Posted by Zale

You'd need to be a Specialist in Arcanodynamics. And keep the ice from melting or the mercury from melting.

And have a high enough UMD check to channel all the energy.

Use blue ice (which has the melting point of iron) and put the mercury in a container of blue ice, which places the mercury at a constant temperature of 0 Centigrade.

Taking 20 on the UMD generally allows you to absorb all the energy you want, unless it's from a ridiculously powerful source. Remember, it takes 6 points of energy damage to equal 1 ebb.

[Zale]

Originally Posted by Morcleon

Taking 20 on the UMD generally allows you to absorb all the energy you want, unless it's from a ridiculously powerful source. Remember, it takes 6 points of energy damage to equal 1 ebb.

Good point.

There's always Force.

[Morcleon]

Originally Posted by Zale

Good point.

There's always Force.

Umm... Silver transformers? Although that's more SR than anything else...

[Omnicrat]

I've been looking at these forums for a few years now, but nothing ever pushed me over the edge and made me want to sign up for an account. Until this.

I've ALWAYS wanted something like this in D&D, and I've been looking for it for a long time.

I just have one suggestion; add a glossary post.

I've usually been able to look through this right before I go to bed, and it has so much new terminology its hard to follow. When I try to read this, my head it swimming with terms I only half understand, if I half understand them. Also, I know from personal experience that terms one has developed and has been using for months, while being perfectly clear and obvious to one, might not (most likely will not) be so to a new reader.

I'm about to go to sleep now, but I'm sure I'll have more posts in the not too distant future. Keep up the good work!

[Orderic]

Same with me, Omnicrat. This is absolutely awesome.

Now, I have a two questions...

1) Can a Ballistic Engine push itself as well? Because if the answer is yes, then we could combine it, the orthogonal engine and the hang glider from the Arms and Equipment Guide to build a flying machine as soon as we get access to magisterial principles.

2) Unless of course... Can most of an engine be stored inside a semi-space while still working as intended?

Also, now it is finally possible to build a portable, pirate ship shooting gun!

Concerning the submerging engine... It doesn't have to be powered by blood. We could just use the acid found within the stomachs of innocent children.
...Wait, thats evil? Fine, we'll just burn some wood.

*grumble* stupid good people... always taking away all the fun...

[afroakuma]

Mr. Kellus, I have not told you in a while just how much you are my favorite.

Special bonus points for the Canada quote and the spectaculat art selections.

[Eldan]

Note to self: stat up Canada as a particularly lethal demiplane where resurrection is impossible.

[General Patton]

Originally Posted by jseah

Therefore, the push to bulk ratio scales with size category according to:
X^3 * 15.625 * (4+X)^-3
EDIT:
Some playing around with the formula indicates that ~15 is the maximum scaling you can get. This is around X = 300 or so (this is a cube about half a kilometer on each side) and after that the rise starts to get really really slow (16 is not reached even by X = 1E20) or even asymptotic.

So yes, there does exist a maximum speed (even if not capped by the table) due to weirdness with the scaling.

15.625 * (X/(X+4))^3
The limit, as X approaches infinity, of (X/(X+4))^3, is 1. Therefore, there is indeed an asymptote at 15.625


So, just double-checking, Black Filters prevent any perceptive Divine Salient Abilities, Portfolio Sense, and a Deity's ability to know when its name or titles are spoken? I have an idea. Come, step through this barrier with me...

Spoiler

Now, my colleagues, as a Gestalt of Ozodrin and Gramarist, *manifests True Nature, suppressing the Fear effect* you all know this terrifying ball of eyes before you *gestures to self* is capable of truly cosmic feats of visual resolution. *resumes Worldly Guise* I assure you, none shall ever pierce this veil. Now, first order of business: the secret plan to kill Vecna.

[jojolagger]

Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage

Edit: Also what is the weight for a cubic feet of all the materials? I couldn't find a weight in the SRD for things like silver and gold and had to google them. Are the special materials like sunmetal the same weight as the material that made them (in this case gold)?

12000 coins to one cu. foot Draconomicon
50 coins to a pound. dmg
240 lbs. per cu. foot therefor
for most metals in D&D

tried, reasdon post is kinda backwards

[Merchant]

Originally Posted by Eldan

Scratch that.

Warforged Gramarist.

With plating of alchemetric metals.

And eldrikinetic transformer components.

Though I get the eldrikinetic transformers. Wouldn't the living parts of the Warforged be at risk of getting poisoned from lead and mercury. And is there even away for it to survive changing part of it to sunmetal? The living parts would be destroyed.

I think two races should be created, at least.
One a construct and the other a race that first pioneered Gramiore.

I am trying to imagine the construct with an AI circuit. You roll for the highest mental stat, you subtract 2 and that becomes the stats for Int, Cha, and Wis. Seeing as that is as high as you can get an AI when a Gramarist makes it. Penalty to Str and Dex due to maybe being newly activated and unclear with physical properties directly (create some 'accustom' Age catagory where when they reach a certain "age" they get a +1 to Str and Dex due to now being used to their new forms). The bonus for them would be that they are not hindered by specialist rule, meaning you can specialize in as many principles as possible. ACF would be having a choice to sacrifice a additional use of Spectroconstruction for a new principle. There's a total of 9 Spec.Constr. You basically sacrifice how quickly you can build large scaled 'anythings' and are allowed to broaden you techniques.

Another race might be natural gramarists and get a feat "Extra Principle" at level one. (Extra Principle could be normally allowed as early as level 3 to stop Human race from being to perfect for this group.

[Orderic]

Originally Posted by Merchant

Though I get the eldrikinetic transformers. Wouldn't the living parts of the Warforged be at risk of getting poisoned from lead and mercury. And is there even away for it to survive changing part of it to sunmetal? The living parts would be destroyed.

Fortunately, Warforged are immune to poison and energy drain.

And something else... is it really impossible to take yggdratectural portals to other planes, without recreating them there?

[LordotheMorning]

This is jaw-dropping. The sheer amount of flavor in this class is astronomical. Absolutely love it.

Small questions about a few numbers, though.

Why would an 8 cubic ft. engine considered tiny? That sounds more like medium sized or even large sized to me.

Semi-spaces are at first limited to being 2 cubic feet, but later you get to prepare it an additional 8 times. How does it go from 2 to 64? It seems to me like it should from 2 to a maximum of 16 because you're adding 2 each time. Or is it exponential?

Is Arcanodynamics useless without Heuristicism? If you've got two transformers in touching each other physically, their fields are going to overlap and nothing will happen?

[Vauron]

Originally Posted by LordotheMorning

This is jaw-dropping. The sheer amount of flavor in this class is astronomical. Absolutely love it.

Small questions about a few numbers, though.

Why would an 8 cubic ft. engine considered tiny? That sounds more like medium sized or even large sized to me.

Semi-spaces are at first limited to being 2 cubic feet, but later you get to prepare it an additional 8 times. How does it go from 2 to 64? It seems to me like it should from 2 to a maximum of 16 because you're adding 2 each time. Or is it exponential?

Note that the unit of measure is cubic feet. To find the length of a side of a cube when all you have is the cubic feet, you need to find the cube root. In this case, the cube root of 8 is 2. This means that those 8 cubic feet transformers are cubes whoses sides are 2 feet long. To give you some contrast, a 5 foot cube like those used by medium characters takes up 125 cubic feet.

The whole 'cubic feet' thing is also your problem with semi-spaces, although the fact that Kellus went from noting the length of the sides in YGGD101 to cubic feet in YGGD241. A cube that has a volume of 64 cubic feet has sides that are 4 feet long.