MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Originally Posted by Felixc-91

I thought that was already established, guess I was wrong.

It might have been; just not in this thread. I don't leave this thread that often, so I tend to be behind in conclusions reached elsewhere, sorry. Thank you for digging up the quotes so quickly.

Originally Posted by Felixc-91

Here it is stated that in the Snarl's demiplane/prison divine energy was nulled
(panel 2, last box of Shojo's words)

Interesting. I had completely forgotten that. Not sure it really supports any particular conclusion about MitD. It is not the rift that nullifies the divine magic, and certainly not the later addition that was the gates (or even the physical door Xykon had installed to prevent the loss of further zombies), but the demiplane itself. As far as we know, MitD has never even hinted at seeing/not seeing that part.

Originally Posted by Felixc-91

In Start of Darkness, during the crayons section where the Dark One first learns of the rifts it is stated that the cleric who first found the first attempted multiple divinations and learned nothing, that the Dark One’s “godly perceptions" had not seen it till then, and that when the Dark One took a look himself that what he learned was: it’s a rift and there was a being of "unparalled power and hostility". (pages 41-42 in SoD).

I'll admit that the data from start of darkness is not rock solid, but we have seen extremely powerful beings looking at things before and they seem to have quite a view (being able to see through epic divination blocks and invisibility at will, during V's battle with X and Eugene scrying on Azure city for Roy). That makes me think the information obtained by the Dark One directly from the rift was more limited than it could have been.

This is indeed a bit less solid (because what god would admit to their own lack of abilities?), but it is more related to the rifts themselves that the prior quote. I still think it is a big stretch to read too much into the running joke "gate? what gate?", but this certainly hints that there are issues with examining. That said, both the cleric and the Dark One didn't have a problem seeing the rift, it was only seeing within it that blocked them. MitD can't even see the gate, which was built later by the order of the Scribble.

Or worse, he can't even recognise the massive door Xykon built in front of it as a gate - the greatest indication, IMnpHO, that it is a joke, since it is bloody huge and, presumably, not particularly magical or indeed related to any of the others except by virtue of being close to them. The most parsimonious explanation is that MitD is both unobservant and doesn't know what "gate" means.

Originally Posted by Felixc-91

Edit: In responce to the other half of your post; ok, so MitD is not a celestial, but there are plenty of creatures with spell like abilities that mimic cleric spells, I just have time to hunt them all down right now. They might fit the blocking divine perception theory, particularly thoes who's fluff implies any kind of connection to angels or devils (and all the other divine good/evil outsiders)

I can understand that you don't have the time to find a good candidate, but I'd like to have at least an example so I know what you mean by "mimic cleric spells" and "fluff connection to angels and/or devils", even if it is not a great fit for MitD.

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

[eras10]

Or worse, he can't even recognise the massive door Xykon built in front of it as a gate - the greatest indication, IMnpHO, that it is a joke, since it is bloody huge and, presumably, not particularly magical or indeed related to any of the others except by virtue of being close to them.

Fairly sure the door is part the gate. It wasn't built by Xykon, it was built by Dorukan. (Why exactly would Xykon build a giant door in front of a gate, and isn't a door a natural thing to include in a gate?) Also, I'm pretty sure the gods can't see the gates, not just the rifts. I can't find the direct reference, but see here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0697.html

Logically, if the gods could see the gates, they would know where the rifts were. And then Durkon could commune with Thor, and ask for the location. Which he can't. The original strip where OOTS learns this, or first references it might clarify further, but I can't find it. But it's there.

Fairly sure I specifically remember that the gates, or side effect of their existence, block divine perception of the rifts (or the gates) at all. Worth a thread on the main forum to ask, for anyone who sees it differently.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c

Unfortunately, we have hit a bit of a snag

Update on this matter: after consulting Mark Hall (the moderator who posted the curator rules), it has been determined that Savannah's List of MitD appearances does not fall under curation rules, and thus she is free to take or ignore any and all suggestions of changes to her post. Voting rules (and all other curating rules) do not apply to her work.

Yours,

Grey Wolf

[Savannah]

I'm not going to re-color the strips, but I did add a note to the description of the purple strips saying that they end "around" strip 100.

[Jay R]

I read through the discussion of use of copyrighted material, and it appears to have left out one possibility. Rich could use somebody else's copyrighted work - with permission.

I can't imagine getting permission from a corporation, but suppose Rich wanted the MitD to be a character from some individual cartoonist or author, and contacted that author directly. The author might say "Yes." So I don't think we can automatically rule out all copyrighted creatures, only those owned by a corporation.

[This is not a discussion of law. This is a discussion of what possible origins the MitD might have.]

[Crusher]

Eh, that's why the Carbosilicate Amorph is on the list.

That having been said, the argument itself is kind of a non-starter. Is Wizards of the Coast actually a corporation or is it some other kind of ownership structure? What if some IP is held by a corporation whose senior management is friends with Rich?

Its probably better to just steer away from anything that could be an IP issue unless its a group that for whatever reason could be connected to Rich. If there was an Erfworld character that was a great fit and was somehow created before Strip #100, then that might be ok, but in 99% of cases, it doesn't matter who owns it, its just out.

[ti'esar]

Originally Posted by Crusher

That having been said, the argument itself is kind of a non-starter. Is Wizards of the Coast actually a corporation or is it some other kind of ownership structure? What if some IP is held by a corporation whose senior management is friends with Rich?

And legality aside, I just can't see the odds of Rich resolving a 1000+ strip mystery with a crossover as anything other then very, very small.

[Irish Musician]

Originally Posted by Felixc-91

In Start of Darkness, during the crayons section where the Dark One first learns of the rifts it is stated that the cleric who first found the first attempted multiple divinations and learned nothing, that the Dark One’s “godly perceptions" had not seen it till then, and that when the Dark One took a look himself that what he learned was: it’s a rift and there was a being of "unparalled power and hostility". (pages 41-42 in SoD).

I'll admit that the data from start of darkness is not rock solid, but we have seen extremely powerful beings looking at things before and they seem to have quite a view (being able to see through epic divination blocks and invisibility at will, during V's battle with X and Eugene scrying on Azure city for Roy). That makes me think the information obtained by the Dark One directly from the rift was more limited than it could have been.

Actually, this is more solid than you would think. I mean, he had to go to the other god's to figure out what the rift was, and the only reason they know what it is, is because they made the rift. Now, I'm not saying that this is concrete evidence, obviously, but I think that it is a little more sturdy in telling that Divine might not be able to read it very well. And we might be able to surmise that the rifts can't be figured out by divine magics because the gods themselves don't want their clerics, paladins, etc. to stumble upon the rifts and figure out what it is, and more importantly, how it got there. Because then the gods themselves would be to blame, anarchy, etc, etc.

Now, like both GW and you said, this is soft for evidence that MitD can't see it because he has divine-like powers, but I think the theory that the gods themselves are "hiding" the rift from their followers by making their followers' divine magic not be able to figure out the rifts is a pretty good possibility. Which, if MitD is divine-like, might affect(is that the right one?) him as well.

[Peelee]

Originally Posted by Celtic_D&Der

Now, like both GW and you said, this is soft for evidence that MitD can't see it because he has divine-like powers, but I think the theory that the gods themselves are "hiding" the rift from their followers by making their followers' divine magic not be able to figure out the rifts is a pretty good possibility. Which, if MitD is divine-like, might affect(is that the right one?) him as well.

As I haven't read most of the other five threads on this, does he not see the gate here? He mentions "not noticing that before," when there is nothing else but a blank wall. It seems that that strip heavily indicates he can see it, and simply refuses to remember what a gate is, even seconds afterwards.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Originally Posted by Peelee

As I haven't read most of the other five threads on this, does he not see the gate here? He mentions "not noticing that before," when there is nothing else but a blank wall. It seems that that strip heavily indicates he can see it, and simply refuses to remember what a gate is, even seconds afterwards.

The second best explanation for his words in that strip is that he doesn't know what "gate" means (as I mentioned above). I remain unconvinced that any issues with the rifts or the semiplane beyond them are even available to MitD, what with the rift being behind a magical Gate created by the Order of the Scribble and then further hidden behind Xykon's doors.

The best explanation continues to be Rule of Funny, as far as I know- but I'll grant you that the idea that there is some connection between the gods hiding the info from their followers and MitD's continued ignorance on the matter of the gates is more solid than what we had before.

Grey Wolf

[erewhon]

Originally Posted by Celtic_D&Der

Divine....yet not a god........intriguing. Any monster examples by chance? If not, no worries. I'm sure someone won't mind investigating.

Atropal's are supposedly 'failed gods'.

For the record, I have long held that the MITD is a Uvuudaum.

Reasoning:

1) Anything that get's Xykon's unreserved 'nasty' approval almost has to be Epic. And the Uvuudaum is waaaay Epic. Whew!

2) Has a giant laundry list of powers and abilities that the MITD fits to a T, so far. For example: Belkars attacks go unnoticed because DR epic 10 and regen 5 mean it literally doesn't feel them. Miko's attacks 'tickle' because she overcame the DR10, but still did not overcome the fast healing 20.

3) The Giant has shown tremendous fondness for the oddball, misbegotten, and little used inhabitants of the MM's. (The Flumph's, for example.) It doesn't get much more oddball than the Uvuudaum. Sirrush's are practically normal compared to these guys.

4) Concerning eyes: It's a stick figure comic. If The Giant wants it to have eyes, it's got eyes. :) Done.


This, then, begs the question: What happened to it? Why is this 800 hit point engine of eldritch destruction as harmless as a bowl of oatmeal?

First likely answer: It's a juvenile. Explains the speech patterns/behavior issues, apparent Medium size(smaller than usual) and lack of a few features (confusion aura).

Assuming it is a juvenile works well, as Uvuudaums have the rudiments of a social structure and family groups in-canon, IE, the 'madness.'


Second likely answer: It encountered the Snarl at some point and is damaged in some fundamental way, including amnesia and loss of powers/abilities.


Both likely options leave open an interesting option: The MITD is growing up/healing slowly. Thus, Ochul's ability to sway it.

My two cents. Prolly wrong, but the options list is getting pretty short these days.

[LuPuWei]

Is it just me, or we going through these threads faster?

[Forbiddenwar]

Originally Posted by eras10

Fairly sure the door is part the gate. It wasn't built by Xykon, it was built by Dorukan. (Why exactly would Xykon build a giant door in front of a gate?)

So goblins stop walking into it. Can't find the strip right now, it might be in the bonus material, but I'm fairly certain Xykon or Redcloak said he put doors on the thing to stop people (like Xykon) from accidentally falling into it.

Edit: After some looking I think it's in the DCF bonus strips. IIRC, Xykon is sending the goblin through the gate, and says that he built the doors over the gate.

[KillItWithFire]

Originally Posted by erewhon

Uvuudaum stuffs

That's all well and good but you didn't touch on the big scenes at all.

Circus scene: Confusion aura seems the best fit. Though I don't think that would fit the bill simply because of the one person vomiting.

Escape: Greater teleport at will. Question here is why couldn't he do it again? Plus the other problems greater teleport has: (Why didn't he go with?)

Tower: Has the strength. (I think, I don't remember what we decided the minimum was but I think it was in the 30's and this guy has 39.)

That's all I have to add. If anyone else *cough graywolf cough* wants to add anything be my guest.

EDIT: Ignore everything I've said. It's already in the first post.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Originally Posted by KillItWithFire

That's all I have to add. If anyone else *cough graywolfGrey Wolf cough* wants to add anything be my guest.

He didn't bring anything new to the table, he was just stating support for the idea, rehashing the points already listed in the pros and cons in the FBS section. I don't particularly like the Uvuu - I think the aura can't be weakened and feel that having to posit youth to explain MitD is too much of a crutch - but they are nitpicks, no worse than the ones for other FBS entries.

I am slightly intrigued by the whole family-madness thing, though. Does anyone have some fluff on that?

Grey Wolf

[notaro]

Long time reader first time poster..

Just read "Start of Darkness" for the first time.. man is that some good..

Anyway, while reading these phrases stood out to me as slightly odd wording.

The circus scene
"Sometimes, it's hard being looked at by so many."

The escape
"...they make a lot of people look at me, which is hard."

Not being a D&D player I wondered if any of youse guys know of any spell like abilities that fit? It could require concentration or something like that. MITD clearly wants to get out of the box so it must be something related to his performance... I'm sure this has been mentioned before but I am too curious not to ask.

[Kish]

It's something we're bearing in mind, yes.

So far, while I may be forgetting something, I believe it's being treated as a minor pro for the Dream Larva (appears as worst fear of everyone viewing it) and otherwise an ambiguous clue.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Originally Posted by Kish

It's something we're bearing in mind, yes.

So far, while I may be forgetting something, I believe it's being treated as a minor pro for the Dream Larva (appears as worst fear of everyone viewing it) and otherwise an ambiguous clue.

For non-D&D players, when we say Dream Larva, think Harry Potter Boggart on steroids.

There are several creatures that mimic others that could theoretically have trouble when confronted with crowds, but actual fluff is silent as far as this thread has been able to determine. Still, Rich could be sending a subtle clue there.

Grey Wolf

[erewhon]

Originally Posted by KillItWithFire

That's all well and good but you didn't touch on the big scenes at all.

Sorry, I was just tossing things up there. :)

Circus scene: Confusion aura seems the best fit. Though I don't think that would fit the bill simply because of the one person vomiting.

It possible the confusion aura was represented there, but if the MITD had the full Uvuudaum confusion aura.... Well, it'd be obvious. The save DC is 47! Honestly, the lack of the aura...I dunno. Maybe it's why he keeps apologizing for his smell? (shrugs)

Escape: Greater teleport at will. Question here is why couldn't he do it again? Plus the other problems greater teleport has: (Why didn't he go with?)

This is the strongest one to support the Uvuudaum, actually. Time Stop, Dim Door to V and O'Chul, Greater Port to safety, Greater Port back to the box, hunker down and be nervous until the time stop wears off. This little feat is actually easy for a Uvuudaum, and nearly impossible for anything else.

Tower: Has the strength. (I think, I don't remember what we decided the minimum was but I think it was in the 30's and this guy has 39.)

Or, conversely, he hit them with his physical attack, which is 10d6+21. If he has a template, this gets even easier. As a bonus, if he IS a Uvuudaum and hit Miko, he may have drained her Wisdom, which could have contributed to her...bad decisions later.

Long ago, I used to think he was a young Gloom, but the tower sequence pretty much rules that out. If he's a Uvuudaum, he's got a REALLY weird back story, but hey, that's not unusual for this comic. :)

[rweird]

Originally Posted by erewhon

This is the strongest one to support the Uvuudaum, actually. Time Stop, Dim Door to V and O'Chul, Greater Port to safety, Greater Port back to the box, hunker down and be nervous until the time stop wears off. This little feat is actually easy for a Uvuudaum, and nearly impossible for anything else.

Time Stop doesn't allow you to effect other creatures when under its effect.

[erewhon]

Originally Posted by rweird

Time Stop doesn't allow you to effect other creatures when under its effect.

Unless The Giant makes it do so anyway.

It's blatantly obvious he's not rules-mongering anything else here, why should the MITD be any different? :)

V and O'Chul needed to escape from their wacky adventures. Look! Monster-San is handy! (POOF)

Plot happens.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Originally Posted by erewhon

Unless The Giant makes it do so anyway.

It's blatantly obvious he's not rules-mongering anything else here, why should the MITD be any different? :)

V and O'Chul needed to escape from their wacky adventures. Look! Monster-San is handy! (POOF)

Plot happens.

While true, that kind of reasoning opens a door that this thread needs to keep closed. Of course Rich can have an Uvuu use time stop in the mode described. But Rich can also have a potted plant use time stamp in the way described. For the purposes of comparing suggestions, we need to assume Rich is not unduly modifying the base creature without lampshading it.

Besides, we know he doesn't need to touch them to great teleport them away, and if he was indeed hit by the stray dimension lock, he could great teleport them without going along for the ride. So no need to break the time stop rules, when we've already seen the teleport rules broken in canon.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

Originally Posted by erewhon

Unless The Giant makes it do so anyway.

Aside from what Grey Wolf said, remember when Vaarsuvius cast Time Stop? All the spells they cast were ones that didn't affect other creatures during the Time Stop, just like the Time Stop was functioning as per by-the-book D&D. I doubt that was a coincidence.

[Sorator]

Originally Posted by Kish

Aside from what Grey Wolf said, remember when Vaarsuvius cast Time Stop? All the spells they cast were ones that didn't affect other creatures during the Time Stop, just like the Time Stop was functioning as per by-the-book D&D. I doubt that was a coincidence.

Agreed, and I had forgotten that we've seen Teleports that didn't involve touching the targets (gosh that sounds dirty). I agree that the Uvuu is a very good fit, if you make some allowances for a juvenile version.

I'll throw this out as well - since it seems that MitD is not entirely aware of his abilities (if he's an Uvuu, he has a massive number of them, and the other FBS candidates all have a fair few as well), it's not a massive stretch to guess that Rich is allowing the confusion aura to be 'toggled' on and off, and he simply hasn't been aware of it to turn it on (assuming he even wanted to use it if he were aware of it, which I doubt).

As far as the Circus scene goes... I'm really not convinced that the audience reactions require much of an explanation beyond "he's a weird-looking monster". *shrug* If he turned on a weakened version of his confusion aura as a self-defense sort of thing against that many people looking at him, that would make sense (and also explain why it's "hard" to have that many people looking at him - it must take some energy to use even a weakened version of that aura, and the discomfort triggering the aura to turn on in the first place wouldn't be pleasant either)... but I don't think such a convoluted explanation is really necessary.

Of course most of that is speculation at best, and as such doesn't meet the standard required for the first post of this thread, but I figured I'd throw it out for discussion regardless.

[Gandariel]

I was re-reading my copy of SoD and... i'm not sure if this has been noted entirely.
I see on the first post that you already counted the fact that Redcloak alone was able to drag the Box on a cart.
This is hardly conclusive, since we don't know Redcloak's stats.

on the last page, though, we see two goblin zombies carrying the box.

Base goblins (1st level warrior) are listed as having 11 Str.
Zombie adds 2.

So two creatures with Str 13 can carry the corpse.
As per d20,

a charachter can lift as much as his max load over his head.

a charachter can lift 2x his max load off the ground, but can only move 5 feet per round

Of the two, the former sounds more reasonable (the army can't move at a speed of 5 feet/round).
So, two Medium* charachters with Str 13 can carry 300 lbs, which should be a rough estimate of the weight of the MitD (plus the cart)

I know these numbers can be wildly incorrect (the giant doesn't care much for carrying capacities, and he uses Medium-sized goblins which might have different stats) but i think it can drive us away from Tarrasques, at least :P

* i used the normal stats of goblins (this one), and then treated them as if they were Medium-sized.

[Irish Musician]

This is all very good logic, however when you add the cart into the mix that changes things. Not being one that is good with numbers, or science for that matter, I can't explain the mechanics behind this, but say you were to drag a lifeless body with your own two hands. This would take much more strength than if you were to put said body into a cart and pull the cart. Because the cart takes off some of the weight for you, which is why we invented them in the first place. So, really, while you are very much on the correct road, you stopped too soon. Keep going down that road........

Two medium creature with Str 13 could carry 300lbs......good start. However, 300lbs isn't the approximate weight of MitD, since the Cart itself takes some of the MitD's weight off of the hands of the two creatures carrying it, and applies it to itself. Of course, like I said, I do not know a formula for that, but MitD, given your scenario, Gandariel, would actually weigh more than 300 lbs.

[Gandariel]

re-check the last page of SoD. the two goblin zombies were carrying the BOX, without cart or anything.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Originally Posted by Gandariel

So, two Medium* charachters with Str 13 can carry 300 lbs, which should be a rough estimate of the weight of the MitD (plus the cart)

This has been attempted multiple times, and the results are always "can't be done per the rules". The two problems you are not addressing with your calculations are:

1) RC is a non-melee cleric. He is thus likely to have less carrying capacity than two zombies. If we are trying to pin down a weight for MitD based on lifting ability, we need to base it off of RC, not two zombies. If you want to argue that he is stronger because of the cloak's powers, you need to explain why he doesn't use that resource by becoming melee.

2) The weight of the box. It is a reinforced box, which means it will have planks 2 inch thick out of some of the hardier woods such as oak. Using the first result in google that gave me a lumber weight calculator, and using the following characteristics for a single board:
Oak, Live
20% moisture
4" wide
2" thick
6' tall

and assuming the box is 32" x 64" x 6', that would require 80 planks of the ones described above. Total weight, according to the calculator, is 840 pounds.

Now, you can use non-reinforced planks, but that only cuts the weight by half, and still places the box beyond the carrying capacity of zombies, never mind RC. And I did not even add weight due to the iron reinforcements.

Grey Wolf

[Irish Musician]

Sorry, I misunderstood. I don't have my copy of SOD here with me.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Sorator

Agreed, and I had forgotten that we've seen Teleports that didn't involve touching the targets (gosh that sounds dirty). I agree that the Uvuu is a very good fit, if you make some allowances for a juvenile version.

I'll throw this out as well - since it seems that MitD is not entirely aware of his abilities (if he's an Uvuu, he has a massive number of them, and the other FBS candidates all have a fair few as well), it's not a massive stretch to guess that Rich is allowing the confusion aura to be 'toggled' on and off, and he simply hasn't been aware of it to turn it on (assuming he even wanted to use it if he were aware of it, which I doubt).

As far as the Circus scene goes... I'm really not convinced that the audience reactions require much of an explanation beyond "he's a weird-looking monster". *shrug* If he turned on a weakened version of his confusion aura as a self-defense sort of thing against that many people looking at him, that would make sense (and also explain why it's "hard" to have that many people looking at him - it must take some energy to use even a weakened version of that aura, and the discomfort triggering the aura to turn on in the first place wouldn't be pleasant either)... but I don't think such a convoluted explanation is really necessary.

Of course most of that is speculation at best, and as such doesn't meet the standard required for the first post of this thread, but I figured I'd throw it out for discussion regardless.

Very interesting point! Elegant way to include the "hard to be looked at by many" clue as a pro for the Uvuudaum.

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c

This has been attempted multiple times, and the results are always "can't be done per the rules". The two problems you are not addressing with your calculations are:

1) RC is a non-melee cleric. He is thus likely to have less carrying capacity than two zombies. If we are trying to pin down a weight for MitD based on lifting ability, we need to base it off of RC, not two zombies. If you want to argue that he is stronger because of the cloak's powers, you need to explain why he doesn't use that resource by becoming melee.

2) The weight of the box. It is a reinforced box, which means it will have planks 2 inch thick out of some of the hardier woods such as oak. Using the first result in google that gave me a lumber weight calculator, and using the following characteristics for a single board:
Oak, Live
20% moisture
4" wide
2" thick
6' tall

and assuming the box is 32" x 64" x 6', that would require 80 planks of the ones described above. Total weight, according to the calculator, is 840 pounds.

Now, you can use non-reinforced planks, but that only cuts the weight by half, and still places the box beyond the carrying capacity of zombies, never mind RC. And I did not even add weight due to the iron reinforcements.

Grey Wolf

FWIW, oak is over 50% heavier than plain old spruce, and hardwood is a real PITA to work with when you want to build something like a box. (Way more likely to have a hardwood plank crack when driving a nail through it, and that's assuming you have a STR high enough to even manage to drive them in!)

In any case, you're still right that the box (let alone box + MitD) is definitely going to be too heavy.