I'm thinking the 4e might be suffering from a bit of book creep. In a game I'm running we have a 13th lvl Monk with Enlightened Action who spends an action point and essentially gets a free move (all shifts so no AoOs) as well as taking half damage from everything for being insubstantial.
Compare this to the Warlord who gets to give everyone a +1 to all defense for a round or the Wizard who can spend their action point and recover an encounter spell INSTEAD of taking an action.
So, I brought out the nerf bat and said the monk could take the extra action OR the free move, not both. The player wasn't happy so I'm asking all of you, what do you think?
Yes, 4E is suffering from power creep. On the other hand, no, monks are not anywhere near overpowered. The monk is a middle-tier class, whereas warlord and wizard are both top tier.
However, the issue here is not with classes, but with paragon paths, because that's where the action point abilities come from. PPs have several other features as well, so it's possible that one PP has a good action point ability and a poor level-11 encounter power, and another PP is the other way around. Of course, it's also possible that one PP is much stronger than another, because they really are all over the chart in terms of power level. For instance, the party wizard is apparently a Wizard Of The Spiral Tower, which is pretty bad.
I don't think your nerf is warranted, no. Instead, suggest that the warlord and wizard player may want to pick a better paragon path.
They are a highly-mobile skirmisher and something of an AoE striker. They are about middle-of-the-road class. I'd be miffed at you nerfing my character, too, in these circumstances. :)
Now, there are varying levels of optimization, and if the monk's player happens to be better at the charop game than the rest of the party, the monk might seem OP. But really, the Wizard and Warlord in your party have higher optimization thresholds than the monk does; well-built Wizards will completely destroy many encounters on their own while the monk ... moves around a lot? And a well-made, capably-run Warlord makes a 5-character party act more like a 7- or 8-character party.
I'm seconding what Kurald is saying; Paragon Paths are all over the place in terms of power level. Consider:
The "Platinum Warlord" (which I assume is what your Warlord too) is considered to be an "average" Paragon Path, same as the Wizard of the Spiral Tower (although Kurald is probably right that such a rating is probably giving it credit).
As a fellow GM, you've got to accept that players will take really good powers/feats/abilities (even if it isn't true in this case). Rather than trying to nerf it from the player side, tackle it from the GM side if it bothers you so much (but remember that as 4e suffers from "long combat syndrome", you should focus on making your creatures more deadly, not more survivable),
I'm thinking the 4e might be suffering from a bit of book creep. In a game I'm running we have a 13th lvl Monk with Enlightened Action who spends an action point and essentially gets a free move (all shifts so no AoOs) as well as taking half damage from everything for being insubstantial.
Compare this to the Warlord who gets to give everyone a +1 to all defense for a round or the Wizard who can spend their action point and recover an encounter spell INSTEAD of taking an action.
So, I brought out the nerf bat and said the monk could take the extra action OR the free move, not both. The player wasn't happy so I'm asking all of you, what do you think?
Oh for...
Monks get to utterly absurd places. It's what they do, and ever since they first came out they've had the option of being able to fly at level 1 as an encounter power (Rising Storm). They don't do high damage by striker standards, they just are the best at getting where they need to be. And if this isn't causing headaches for the DM, they aren't being played well. (An actually powerful striker like the archer ranger with the Battlefield Archer PPC just makes things dead). So no, the monk being mobile doesn't need a nerf bat.
Yeah, that nerf is totally uncalled-for. Ask yourself, what is the Monk breaking by having a cool trick on his AP? Positioning is cool, but it's just positioning, nothing more.
Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
When you ask a question, and I respond with something about the Truenamer, it might be because I think it's the best answer. More likely, though, is that I'm saying it because no one else will.
Yes, the ability itself is good but not overpowered, all things considered.
Sure, free, uninterupted, move w/action point might open up nice tricks like 1st turn nova, w/all actions (and AP) used to deal damage. I've killed some melee monster to death that way. Is the monk capable of that with his AoE-attacks?
Even if yes, adding insubstantial on top of that doesn't really make that much of a difference if the monk has just taken out a sizeable portion of the enemy forces... which I seriously doubt.
__________________
I know what you're thinking. "Did he prepare six Explosive Runes this morning or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is the 3rd level spell Explosive Runes, the most powerful Abjuration in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?
Its a monk.
Monks are built around agility your crippling your player for using his classes abilities
A monk just doesn't have the damage to make movement overpowering
A monk moves around and hurts people they are the striker designed to hit and run
Trust me when you have a high opp swordmage, wizard, warlord, ranger working together the things they will do
__________________
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miscast_Mage
You're a frickin' ninja below me, too!? You got mad skills, Vknight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbane
Rogue vs. Dog. (The new Cat vs. Commoner, only not amusing!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay R
You are making the assumption of rational planning. After 37 years of dungeon crawling, I still have zero evidence that the average dungeon was designed by the sane.
"Sleep is optional, just ask Vknight" Someone I Forget but thanks... I don't
Okay guys, maybe my monk isn't overpowered when compared to optimised characters but that isn't what the rest of the party is. Aside from saying to the other players, "well guys, you suck at creating characters, try again," honestly what else can I do to get the rest of the players to stop glaring at me and slipping on their +3 Boots of Groin Kicking?
Okay guys, maybe my monk isn't overpowered when compared to optimised characters but that isn't what the rest of the party is. Aside from saying to the other players, "well guys, you suck at creating characters, try again," honestly what else can I do to get the rest of the players to stop glaring at me and slipping on their +3 Boots of Groin Kicking?
...Let the monk keep his power? Seriously, it doesn't matter what the warlord and wizard's power levels are, it's some free movement and a bit of damage reduction on a glass cannon melee class that's focused on being wherever he needs to be, whenever he needs to be there.
Aside from saying to the other players, "well guys, you suck at creating characters, try again,"
Obviously if you bring it that negatively, it's not going to work. If you simply point at the retraining rules, and point out that the monk has this particular combo but the warlord and wizard have something else (because they're, you know, not a striker) I'm sure you can work this out.
Okay guys, maybe my monk isn't overpowered when compared to optimised characters but that isn't what the rest of the party is. Aside from saying to the other players, "well guys, you suck at creating characters, try again," honestly what else can I do to get the rest of the players to stop glaring at me and slipping on their +3 Boots of Groin Kicking?
dealwithitdog.gif
As pointed out, this power is not unreasonable strong, and (as I mentioned before) this particular Monk prestige class is actually considered to be kind of considered terrible! This one power it has is probably one of the few good things about the prestige class.
Apologize to your player for overreacting, and if you really feel like this monk is ruining your well-crafted encounters, then increase the difficulty of your well-crafted encounters. The players get to play what they want, and you get to compensate for whatever grief that one power is giving you without the players ever knowing you're adding +2 to all damage rolls.
Okay guys, maybe my monk isn't overpowered when compared to optimised characters but that isn't what the rest of the party is. Aside from saying to the other players, "well guys, you suck at creating characters, try again," honestly what else can I do to get the rest of the players to stop glaring at me and slipping on their +3 Boots of Groin Kicking?
I can't even find on a quick scan which PPs your guys have picked - but they have very low AP benefits.
Okay guys, maybe my monk isn't overpowered when compared to optimised characters but that isn't what the rest of the party is. Aside from saying to the other players, "well guys, you suck at creating characters, try again," honestly what else can I do to get the rest of the players to stop glaring at me and slipping on their +3 Boots of Groin Kicking?
Can you give us a breakdown of what the other PCs are doing?
Ideally, the Wizard should be shutting down entire encounters. Even a middle-of-the-road Wizard will define entire combats with their Dailies. The Warlord is going to be enhancing the rest of the party and letting them attack more.
Well I guess that is not so bad u can always block shift movement , well the ranger of our party (ranger/rogue/cloak sniper) with a warlock multiclass and an acolyte power he got ethereal side step (a teleportation at will) level 10 utility and he got eladrin boots and the eladrin ring of passage, I guess this is worst than shifting at full blast he could fire triple shot+sudden bolt+snap shot +action point compounding arrows which make him a real pain but still he is not quite a problem just attack him with range attacked :-) running guys won't have it easy escaping that :-)
I'm thinking the 4e might be suffering from a bit of book creep. In a game I'm running we have a 13th lvl Monk with Enlightened Action who spends an action point and essentially gets a free move (all shifts so no AoOs) as well as taking half damage from everything for being insubstantial.
Compare this to the Warlord who gets to give everyone a +1 to all defense for a round or the Wizard who can spend their action point and recover an encounter spell INSTEAD of taking an action.
So, I brought out the nerf bat and said the monk could take the extra action OR the free move, not both. The player wasn't happy so I'm asking all of you, what do you think?
Compare to that cloak sniper that only happen once per encounter and aside from that it requires an action point so it's not quite useful in multiple encounter , even how u put it just ignore him at that time and after that give him all the range attack u can throw at half damage is still a damage :-) just let him be he is a lot easier to handle than someone who teleport like a jumper :-) if its really getting ur goat don't nerf is .......side bord it u can always. make a monster to handle that; monster maker DM guide to address the problem nerfing is not the answer at this point.
Okay guys, maybe my monk isn't overpowered when compared to optimised characters but that isn't what the rest of the party is. Aside from saying to the other players, "well guys, you suck at creating characters, try again," honestly what else can I do to get the rest of the players to stop glaring at me and slipping on their +3 Boots of Groin Kicking?
Suck it up. You made a character that is not perfect so I'm not going to punish the other PC's for that so you feel even.
Simple
As a wizard damage is not a primary focus.
As a warlord damage is not a primary focus.
Neither is movement
As a Leader you help the party, as a secondary defender you can tank for a round.
As a wizard you do blast damage and/or effects that cripple
So here
Make an encounter to beat on the Monks weakness, and show normal wizard and warlord strengths(Make sure the wizard and warlord have some of these)
and play out the fight
If there still complaining then you have my Thursday group ungrateful.
Constantly questioning you on every rule.
Constantly saying your a bad DM, because I called another Dm on his bad stuff and that means its acceptable to just berate me for no reason
Whining and never actually giving logical or conclusive reasons to why
Complaining if given a mystery to solve, or any type of puzzle solving
Simply not paying attention to information given in game or just not listening in general
__________________
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miscast_Mage
You're a frickin' ninja below me, too!? You got mad skills, Vknight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbane
Rogue vs. Dog. (The new Cat vs. Commoner, only not amusing!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay R
You are making the assumption of rational planning. After 37 years of dungeon crawling, I still have zero evidence that the average dungeon was designed by the sane.
"Sleep is optional, just ask Vknight" Someone I Forget but thanks... I don't
Okay guys, maybe my monk isn't overpowered when compared to optimised characters but that isn't what the rest of the party is. Aside from saying to the other players, "well guys, you suck at creating characters, try again," honestly what else can I do to get the rest of the players to stop glaring at me and slipping on their +3 Boots of Groin Kicking?
Ok, so the monk player isn't happy that you are nerfing his character and other players aren't happy with their Action Point-abilities?
Let the other players change their Paragon Paths, if that's such an issue for them. Stress that this is a one time thing and they should come to next session after reading some books and thinking it over. Either they can have their much vaunted Action Point-abilities or they might even figure out they had it good already. Yes, that requires bending the rules but so does nerfing. Either way, the end result would be RAW.
Also, rolling a new character should always be on the table, if used in moderation.
__________________
I know what you're thinking. "Did he prepare six Explosive Runes this morning or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is the 3rd level spell Explosive Runes, the most powerful Abjuration in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?
Okay guys, maybe my monk isn't overpowered when compared to optimised characters but that isn't what the rest of the party is. Aside from saying to the other players, "well guys, you suck at creating characters, try again," honestly what else can I do to get the rest of the players to stop glaring at me and slipping on their +3 Boots of Groin Kicking?
Think of it this way: is it the monk's fault that your other players suck at making characters? If it is, somehow, fine, but if it's not, why are you punishing him for it?
Actually, another likely problem is that your other players' effectiveness simply isn't as visible to them as the monk's is. The monk is always doing something, after all. The Warlord class, however, is a Leader - an enabler. Their best options are those that cause other people to do things, which can hide that they're doing anything at all. The Wizard can be even worse in that regard, as as a Controller their goal is to make nothing happen - every action an enemy doesn't take is a success for a wizard, but things not happening is less obvious than things actually occurring. You might try noting the damage each player's actions do during a battle and then averaging them out, including noting whether a hit would've missed if not for the warlord granting bonuses to attacks and treating the damage dealt by other characters due to warlord-granted attacks as the warlord's, and making sure you sometimes point out when a monster would have done something if not for the wizard's disables.
And yeah, looking at that Transcendent Perfection PP, it is terribly weak. It seems like it tries to add leader and to some extent defender functionality to a striker-controller, but it doesn't do either well, and adds no actual striker function. The non-AP L11 feature lets you reposition allies (a leader's job), the L11 power lets you immobilize or stop yourself from being forced around (most useful for a defender), the L12 power is a weak heal (leaders get to use something superior twice per encounter at level 1), the L16 feature is extremely situational and just not that big an advantage, and the L20 power does merely average damage and eats your stance for a benefit that's pretty minor at that level. Even the L11 AP feature doesn't accomplish much that charging couldn't.
Actually, another likely problem is that your other players' effectiveness simply isn't as visible to them as the monk's is.
That is likely. I find that a controller's effectivity tends not to be noticed by the other players, but it is highly visible to the DM.
Aside from that, controllers are the hardest role to play well (with strikers being the easiest) so it is quite possible that the wizard looks ineffective because he is. There are some really crappy spells on the wizard list, after all, and the class requires more tactical insight than most strikers would.
So the monk can walk into the middle of enemies (unless they are the type for whom shifting provokes), and not die in one round? At the cost of 1 power point? On a character class that needs to be in the middle of enemies to do effective damage? Who's class is built around dealing damage?
If the other players are glaring at you because the monk isn't dying on round one from DOING HIS JOB, the problem is with your other players not the monk character.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroRebel
The Warlord class, however, is a Leader - an enabler. Their best options are those that cause other people to do things, which can hide that they're doing anything at all.
Only if they roleplay poorly. I am currently playing a lazy warlord in a game, with the Fey Beast theme, so I always have an owlbear in combat, flanking/giving aura benefit/etc. I'm always contributing, even out of turn, which actually gives the impression that I'm over-contributing, until we run the numbers. Of course, this is level 2. Maybe by level 13, warlords run out of things to do...
Just fluff it as the warlord yelling, and stuff happening. You yell, and someone attacks against, HARDER, an more accurately. You yell at someone to walk off the sword stuck in their heart, and they do.
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Originally Posted by SSGoW
95% of martial problems can be solved by Tome of Battle...
Last edited by demigodus : 08-31-2012 at 07:02 PM.
My game day is tomorrow and I will reinstate the monk's abilities (probably much to the delight of the munchkin of a player). I will also point out that he is not over powered but that the others are underpowered and will thus be granting a bonus of my own choosing to each of the others.
Many thanks to all of you. And Kurald, for your Thursday group, I feel your pain brother.
My game day is tomorrow and I will reinstate the monk's abilities (probably much to the delight of the munchkin of a player). I will also point out that he is not over powered but that the others are underpowered and will thus be granting a bonus of my own choosing to each of the others.
This may sound crazy, but why not encourage them to ... you know, make their characters stronger instead of solving it via DM Fiat which will probably generate yet more ill will at your table? Or tell them, "He's a monk; that's what monks do."
I have nothing against a low-op style of play. But "envy of the other PCs' power" is not really characteristic of a low-op player or playstyle. When you refer to him as a "munchkin" for simply making an effective character within the rules, it points to some dysfunction in the group. Unless there's more going on? "Moving around a ton with an action point" isn't really great evidence, here.
Some members of the WotC CharOp community can be obnoxious sometimes, but most of their class guides are much more even-handed and helpful. Pointing your other players in this direction might not be a horrible idea.
My game day is tomorrow and I will reinstate the monk's abilities (probably much to the delight of the munchkin of a player). I will also point out that he is not over powered but that the others are underpowered and will thus be granting a bonus of my own choosing to each of the others.
Many thanks to all of you. And Kurald, for your Thursday group, I feel your pain brother.
I'm still not sure you understand; none of your players are "over powered", least of all the Monk. As stated twice already, the paragon path he's in is a garbage one for a Monk. One decent ability usable every two combats do not a munchkin make.
Tell your Monk player you're sorry for overreacting, and just let it be.
Stop comparing the Monk to your other players (and your other players to each other!); if they feel they're underpowered, then let them pick a different paragon path, but rest assured, the monk is not going to be breaking anything in his current path.
My game day is tomorrow and I will reinstate the monk's abilities (probably much to the delight of the munchkin of a player). I will also point out that he is not over powered but that the others are underpowered and will thus be granting a bonus of my own choosing to each of the others.
Many thanks to all of you. And Kurald, for your Thursday group, I feel your pain brother.
I don't think the other characters are under power they just dont know thier place, in our game I hate the ranger/rogue/cloak sniper (main striker), but what can I do he teleports around and when I chase him the wizard/artificer(controller part time leader who happen to heal him if I do damage him) slows the monster down, when I do get near there is the paladin/dragon sorcerer (main defender)with all it's insane defense powers blocking my way and marking the monster , forcing his way I at last reach the cloak sniper the tempest/ranger/kensai(secondary striker and back up defender) pound the monster and with all The penalty of the paladin mark giving the monster a hell of a time trying to hit the crazy elf who keeps teleporting around and firing his crossbow. (note for two rounds this cloak sniper does a pinning strike +snapshot on the next round triple shot+sudden bolt) even though he has the largest damage it's his companion together give this monsters death even if though the bulk of the damage is from the cloak sniper. Without his companion the cloak sniper pitiful defense will have him overwhelm by the monster quite easily
I still want to know more about the Wizard and Warlord builds. I mean, it's possible that they're just holding the phone wrong and forgetting to use abilities or misunderstanding their powers.
I'd guess the Warlord's a Knight Commander, which like the Wizard of the Spiral Tower, isn't particularly chosen for the Action Point boost. If that's the case, with all that movement the Monk has, he's robbing himself of an easy +2 to hit on his big Action Point turn- one that the Wizard's getting quite easily.
In comparison to the Monk, though, other Strikers get extra AP movement Paragon Paths, too. Ranger's got Pathfinder and Stormwarden, Rogue's got Cat Burglar and Master Infiltrator, Avengers have Zealous Assassin, Barbarians have Wildrunner, and that's just aiming for the low-hanging fruit. Try comparing to those paths instead of to the controller and leader paths- the Monk might be better off with his movement defensively, but others might have the upper hand offensively due to their other features (and heck, Strikers are supposed to like being offensive). Or, perhaps, the Warlord and Wizard paths that involve movement: Combat Veteran lets Warlords give out a move action, and Arcane Wayfarers get to teleport.
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"Okay, so I'm going to quick draw and dual wield these one-pound caltrops as improvised weapons..."
---
"Oh, hey, look! Blue Eyes Black Lotus!" "Wait what, do you sacrifice a mana to the... Does it like, summon a... What would that card even do!?" "Oh, it's got a four-energy attack. Completely unviable in actual play, so don't worry about it."
Last edited by OracleofWuffing : 09-01-2012 at 01:39 AM.
I think the problem here is everybody wants to have high damage and a lot of show like manurvers wizard will have a problem keeping up with the monks dps even if he take the class Wizard/Warlock/Hell bringer , he will still fall short of the damage capability of a monk, what more if he warlord who is design for support, unless he hybrid ranger and get multiclass fighter with kensai I think he will get over that dps problem :-) worst he will take the snow tiger and grab a pair of katar and that's would be one wierd looking warlord :-) but functional
POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Fallen Needle
Hybrid at-will 1: Grasping Shards
Hybrid encounter 1: Open the Gate of Battle
Hybrid daily 1: Spinning Leopard Maneuver
Hybrid utility 2: Divine Protection
Hybrid encounter 3: Chains of Carceri
Hybrid daily 5: Searing Orb
Hybrid utility 6: Centered Defense
Hybrid encounter 7: Lightning Spike
Hybrid daily 9: Summon Blade Angel
Hybrid utility 10: Iron Dragon Defense
Hybrid encounter 13: Storm's Wake (replaces Open the Gate of Battle)
ITEMS
Magic Githweave Armor +3, Ki Scimitar +3, Rhythm Blade Parrying dagger +2, Amulet of Mental Resolve +3, Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier)
But I would prefer this even if there is not add on to the action point powers
Spoiler
Lance, level 13
Half-Elf, Paladin|Sorcerer, Paragon Hybrid
Hybrid Paladin: Hybrid Paladin Fortitude
Sorcerous Power: Sorcerous Power Strength
Paragon Hybrid Talent: Soul of the Sorcerer
Soul of the Sorcerer: Dragon Soul
Dragon Soul: Dragon Soul Fire
Hybrid Talent: Paladin Armor Proficiency
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Light Blade)
Background: Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 19, Con 15, Dex 13, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 21.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 12, Dex 12, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16.
ITEMS
Summoned Gith Plate Armor +3, Bradaman's Scimitar +3, Rhythm Blade Parrying dagger +2, Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Badge of the Berserker +3, Boots of Quickness (heroic tier)
I'm going to agree with Ashdate and obryn that fiat is definitely not the way to go. Unless the Warlord and Wizard are actively complaining about being underpowered, you don't need to do anything. And if they are complaining, just let them rebuild (with the help of the guides obryn linked). Fiating extra powers is just going to make the poor Monk feel cheated all over again.
I'm also going to Nth that it's incredibly easy to undervalue the contributions of a controller/leader.
Anecdotal proof from the transcript of a post game conversation (because I'm still mad about it):
Spoiler
me: I'm so glad [my Wizard] actually did something this week
DM: well his charm did no damage and the charmed dude didn't either and the ice thing did 1 damage
me: He's not a blaster. He's not supposed to be doing damage
DM: so two damage over two turns might not count as good
me: He successfully kept that slaver from doing anything really for the entire battle, and had him take damage from the auras, and he immobilized the bagman and prevented it from doing anything for a turn
DM: suuuure
Also tarlison please use the 'Edit' button to amend your posts instead of double-posting.
Okay, to try to better portray the situation. Unfortunately I don't have the PCs character sheets handy so I can't provide too much hard information on class choices, etc.
I inherited this group from another DM at 11th level. The player of the Monk joined when I did and created his character then. He has chosen his feats for a great deal of defense and actually has better defenses than the Warlord as well as more HP.
Now I'm guessing the original players are not optimized well at all and none of the players seem to want to spend excess amounts of time researching and tweaking their characters.
However, they are the ones that are unhappy with the Monk who seem to have powers and abilities far beyond their own. It is also a little difficult for me as I don't want to design encounters too powerful for them but powerful enough to challenge the Monk.
It also doesn't help that the player of the Monk tends to brag a lot about his character and is always pushing for bonuses. I've told him more than once that combat advantage does not stack and I've caught him trying to use an encounter power twice in one encounter.
I've valued all the advice here but my guess is that when I tell the Monk's player that he's fine to use the PP, he's going to whoop and holler saying how great he is and if I just tell the other players to 'suck it up' and hit the books to optimize their own characters, they're just going to leave and not come back. I live in a rural area and there aren't exactly thousands of players waiting for a spot in a game.
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