Campaign to Stop Insulting the Giant

[Tragak]

To everybody who's tired of the nit-pickers complaining about The Giant writing a brilliant, cinematic, character-based story instead of a super-mechanical sequence of obscure D&D builds and auto-win combos at every opportunity, would you please sig this quote?

Originally Posted by Stricken

I tip my hat to you, Giant. For every person who rules-nitpicks you, there are bound to be ten times as many fans who are just blown away by how excellent your storytelling is.

I would love it if every page of every thread had at least one person's sig quoting this so that the "lash out at every obscure mechanical detail deemed less important than storytelling" crowd know, and are always reminded, that their "analysis" is not what the people here are looking for.

[Rakoa]

You got it. A very worthy cause.

[Tev]

Tbh when the D&D veterans are self aware of how nitpicky they are, they bring a lot of insight to how might comic happen in different way and who's making biggest blunder . . .
Rich already ignores them to big extent, and I don't get why anyone else should be bothered when nitpickers rant too much. Overreacting to overreaction isn't good idea.

[Roland Itiative]

I didn't intend on ever having a signature here but count me in.

[armourer eric]

Originally Posted by Rakoa

You got it. A very worthy cause.

Now we just need a Sally Struthers PSA

[SavageWombat]

In fairness, I think the serious character-builders are respectful to the Giant and his work, and that recent bursts of "well he's just wrong" are outliers that will be quickly disavowed by the rest of the fanbase.

[Szarrukin]

{scrubbed}

[sam79]

Originally Posted by Tragak

To everybody who's tired of the minmax-nazis (is that putting it too strongly?)

Probably a bit. Gotta say...I love the story, think the author has created a great world and some interesting characters, and I'm not very familiar with the rules of 3.5 D+D, BUT:

1) If the world is based on D+D rules, then having people analyse it based on D+D rules is inevitable. Sometimes this goes a little too far, but not that often.

2) IMO, the forums here are pretty respectful, even when the debates get robust. Direct insults to other forum-members, let alone the author, are thankfully pretty rare.

3) As he has proven time and again, the author has broad shoulders for legitimate comment/criticism, and more than enough snark to stick up for himself when the detrators cross the line.

I respect the intention of this thread, but I think it is a solution looking for a problem.

[Carry2]

Originally Posted by Paul Graham

[The] usefulness test will tend to produce results that annoy people: there's no use in telling people things they already believe, and people are often upset to be told things they don't.

I can certainly agree that are various aspects of D&D mechanics that don't easily gel with various conventions of dramatic storytelling (e.g, relatively trivial resurrection mechanics,) and if it took the author a number of years to realise it, well, he's hardly alone in that. But the other half of me feels that problems with a rule-set entail an obligation to rewrite said rules, rather than to play without rules entirely. So to speak.

(i.e. if the author has a bunch of homebrew tweaks and changes and revisions to D&D mechanics, fine and well and good, but I would be nice to have them explained in advance and stuck with consistently. Checkov's Gun, and all that. I remember this complaint about, e,g. Durkon not being able to use Commune to just ask Thor what he intended.)

[Quorothorn]

Originally Posted by sam79

I respect the intention of this thread, but I think it is a solution looking for a problem.

Agreed.

On a personal note, I've only ever had a "problem" with the "mechanical analysis" part of the fanbase (which I actually consider myself a part of, in fact) when it just gets taken too far (especially if someone tries to bring theoretical optimization limits/RAW loopholes into things), and/or when the folks complaining about something are actually incorrect on the mechanics (again, often in some kind of TO exercise taken outside its thought-experiment context). And that happens with almost any "aspect" of a fanbase, so it's hardly a unique point. The world IS one that operates under the basic rules and conditions of D&D 3.5ed, after all, so analyzing events in that light is another, perfectly valid and often entertaining, route to talking about the comic more.

[Ghosty]

Agreed that it's a solution in search of a problem. I also think that some of the people who note perceived discrepancies between the rules and characters' actions in-comic would be better served by not coming off as a jerk when they point those discrepancies out. Tone matters.

I do agree though that the rules matter as they are part of the framework through which we are perceiving the Giant's story. So, when we see a rules discrepancy, it bugs us. In the same way it would if we were reading a sonnet and one of the words didn't match the meter. We aren't out of line in pointing these out to the Giant, though I think we should present any questions we have with the narrative in a more respectful tone. Part of that, I'm sure, is the imperfect nature of text as communication. That's all.

Personally, I was wondering why Roy's fantasy wouldn't have RC just Disintegrate the Forcecage. He didn't witness it personally (being dead at the time) but he'd have heard about it. I however accept the explanation that he was too busy exulting in kicking Xykon's bony a** to notice what a (to him) henchman healer was bothering to do.

Neat strip. I really like the misdirection of introducing RC early with an eyepatch, as it set me up to accept the rest of your con, Giant. Even though I was on Team Illusion.

[coineineagh]

I probably haven't read the threads in question, but I've seen people have a go at him for spelling mistakes (and the times the nitpickers got it wrong was absolutely hilarious: "suitable to opening it"), the timing of new comic updates (which is a banned topic altogether), and even people suggesting that his prolonged absence was financially convenient!

In the light of all the accusations and complaints, I don't believe he'd be particularly put off by a thing like D&D rules nitpicking. The comic itself often discusses the topic of ridiculous rules, so they are hardly sacred on this site. Rich has said many times that story comes first, and rules for his world are only loosely based on 3.5 D&D, also for copyright reasons. Nothing is set in stone. If anybody decided to post some harsh value judgements based on the comic's non-adherence, then they didn't properly read the disclaimers.

And besides, I'm sure everyone here enjoys discussing D&D rules to a certain extent. If The Giant happens to lose a discussion on occasion, no biggie: He'll always be the biggest winner here!

[Mantine]

This thread is wrong on so many levels that it's almost comical.

First, the "min-maxing nazis" (forcibly labeling a a group of people so to create a target to focus hate on), rather than addressing the actual arguments.

Second, the "complaining about The Giant writing a brilliant, cinematic, character-based story instead of a super-mechanical sequence of obscure D&D builds and auto-win combos at every opportunity", another cheap trick as to describe one side majestically and the other in a stupid way, so to underwhelm their position while completely ignoring any objective argumentation.

Third, the assumption that commenting/noting any possible inconsistencies while in the presence of an overall very good work shouldn't happen in the first place.
Basically, the death of critical mind.

Fourth, the "so that the minmaxers know, and are always reminded, that their "analysis" is not what the people here are looking for"
Sorry, it's not for you to decide what other people comes here for.

Feel free to voice your tastes and opinions, just don't try to enforce them upon others.

[happyturtle]

Originally Posted by Ghosty

I do agree though that the rules matter as they are part of the framework through which we are perceiving the Giant's story. So, when we see a rules discrepancy, it bugs us. In the same way it would if we were reading a sonnet and one of the words didn't match the meter.

Shakespeare broke all the sonnet rules at various times, including writing a sonnet with fifteen lines, using iambic tetrameter, talking about non-traditional subjects, and changing the rhyming structure. It was his willingness to play with the form that contributed to his genius. If he'd written 154 completely standard sonnets, nobody but extreme poetry geeks would have even heard of them.

[Finagle]

To me, it's either a D&D comic or it's not. If it is, then use D&D rules. If it's not, then why even bother with stuff like Meteor Swarm and Forcecage at all? Just start making stuff up. At one point, Belkar even says "Uh, OK, but I thought we weren't actually representing a game campaign, we were just living in a world where the laws of--" while Shojo is behind a DM's screen with polyhedral dice showing.

If it's D&D then let's do this thing. If not, then why even bother with levels and saving throws and clerics and soulblades? As far as I can guess, it's something like "well I started with D&D because it's what I knew and I could get an audience, but then it got big and after I sold $1.2 million dollars of merchandise I really don't need the D&D fans any more. If I stuck to the rules as written some geek would always catch me in a mistake and that sort of thing really gets under my skin, so whenever that happens A Wizard Did It." Sometimes, I just think it's too hard to make all the rules work together and that's why the comic is the way it is.

Besides, I don't think we need a campaign like this. The man is fully capable of defending himself. He tells people "the subject is closed" or "end of story" and locks threads all the time, so he can get the last word in any argument. It is actually against the forum rules to insult the author. So by definition, whenever it happens the post is deleted and the member banned and thus we never see such things.

And before anyone starts, I like the comic a lot. I used to think all webcomics were crap (and I was right) but I surprised myself by following this one. Look at me, I even post in the forum! The thing that hooked me was exactly what Belkar said - a bunch of D&D characters actually living like they would if they were "real" and following their adventures. And done with such skill. I especially like when character attributes like Int or Cha are shown as having an effect on the characters in the story. The author even has the fantastically rare ability, as showcased in the most recent comic, of keeping what different characters know separate. They only know what they should know and their thinking reflects that. A skill doubtlessly honed by a relentless dedication to the art of DMing.

[ThePhantasm]

1) Rich can defend himself just fine, and has.

2) I doubt somehow that the powers-that-be will look favorably upon splitting the forum into two groups of stereotyped posters.

3) Said stereotypes and generalizations tend to be overly simplistic and not reflective of actual reality (and yeah, that's a generalization about generalizations). In this case there's a lot of poison-the-well fallacy up in the OP, against a half-imagined group of posters.

4) Its the internet. As much as I hate the fact, being insulted on the internet comes with the territory. You have to be thick-skinned and not put so much weight on what a random stranger blasts you with. That doesn't excuse insults (and mods do just fine curbing flaming) but acting majorly surprised or offended every time they appear isn't going to make them go away (and in fact encourages actual trolls more). You just have to brush it off and shrug. I think the Giant does a good job putting the more off-the-wall critiques of his work firmly in their place without insulting his critics in turn - there's no need for a bunch of fans to be acting vicariously offended in his stead.

My two cents.

[Edhelras]

I kinda agree that this is a solution looking for a problem. However, I have noticed that the otherwise benevolent and cheerful Giant takes on a harsher expression when the rules-lawyers appear to quarrel on his chosen solutions. Given the fact that this is a free comic (at least for me), and that we are totally dependent on the goodwill of the Giant for getting this excellent entertainment upon our existence depends - I would strongly recommend the rules lawyers to think once again: Are your contributions helpful? Are they welcome? Are they goodhearted? Or are they first and foremost expressions of your personal desires to show off? If the latter - consider having your own websites?

I truly enjoy reading OOTS exactly as a DnD game, and I look for usage of the beloved rules everywhere. However, as a gamer, I too know that there are some basic rules to DnD: 1) The DM decides, in the end, and 2) the whole point of DnD is to tell a story, together. The of course the bottom rule is to have fun. So, to a true fan of DnD, these rules should trumph all the details we can look up in the PHB, DMG and other sourcebooks.

There is no need for this campaign, I hope, but there is a need for some people to reflect upon the role they're playing in this particular game.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by Edhelras

Given the fact that this is a free comic (at least for me), and that we are totally dependent on the goodwill of the Giant

This is also the Giant's livelihood, not just something he does for fun or out of goodwill.

[Zerter]

The Giant is the dictator of this site. If he does not want people to have the freedom to insult him (as you put it) he has the power to stop it. Apparantly he can take it.

Also, this thread is seriously wrong. You are making a campaign in which you call on the majority to shut down a minority. Also known as the reason most civilized countries have constitutions. Now, I am not going to say I enjoy the rulenazi's (although I very much enjoy the conflict they generate), but I will defend their freedom to be who they are and by extent that of everyone else.

[Rakoa]

Originally Posted by Zerter

The Giant is the dictator of this site. If he does not want people to have the freedom to insult him (as you put it) he has the power to stop it. Apparantly he can take it.

Also, this thread is seriously wrong. You are making a campaign in which you call on the majority to shut down a minority. Also known as the reason most civilized countries have constitutions. Now, I am not going to say I enjoy the rulenazi's (although I very much enjoy the conflict they generate), but I will defend their freedom to be who they are and by extent that of everyone else.

I'm sorry, where did Tragak say that he was going to absolutely obliterate the freedom of people in some doomsday death machine? He is proposing we put a quote in our signature to show our support for Rich, not personally steal the "freedom to be who they are" (sounds like a Pokemon moral or something) by some Grinch-like tactics.

[Zerter]

I'm sorry, where did Tragak say that he was going to absolutely obliterate the freedom of people in some doomsday death machine? He is proposing we put a quote in our signature to show our support for Rich, not personally steal the "freedom to be who they are" (sounds like a Pokemon moral or something) by some Grinch-like tactics.

You are refering to step one of the Campaign to Stop Insulting the Giant, also known as you know, the thread title?

It's also in the general tone. Glorifying his own people (''the people''), demonizing the ''others''. I know where this is headed, I have seen enough shows and films to recognize the beginning.

[Rakoa]

Originally Posted by Zerter

You are refering to step one of the Campaign to Stop Insulting the Giant, also known as you know, the thread title?

It's also in the general tone. Glorifying his own people (''the people''), demonizing the ''others''. I know where this is headed, I have seen enough shows and films to recognize the beginning.

Oh I see now. Tragak truly is an evil genius. It is only a matter of time before he bends the weak-willed majority to their knees and fills their heads with his thoughts. A new age of forums will be ushered in as Tragak and his minions flood like a wave of death, exterminating all those "others" who oppose them, wiping out all resistance until none are left to stand in the way of Emperor Tragak.

Shows and films have served you well, my friend. You truly are a visionary.

[Zerter]

Shows and films have served you well, my friend. You truly are a visionary.

Thank you!

[Tragak]

Originally Posted by Rakoa

Oh I see now. Tragak truly is an evil genius. It is only a matter of time before he bends the weak-willed majority to their knees and fills their heads with his thoughts. A new age of forums will be ushered in as Tragak and his minions flood like a wave of death, exterminating all those "others" who oppose them, wiping out all resistance until none are left to stand in the way of Emperor Tragak.

Shows and films have served you well, my friend. You truly are a visionary.

Well, obviously I and everybody who agrees with me are just a sock-puppets created by The Giant to make people THINK that more than one person wants to find out what happens next in the story instead of just shouting urdoinitrong, as opposed to everyone else on the board who is real knows that character knowledge is not allowed to be incomplete.

Wait, no, I blew my cover! Why am I still typing this instead of deleting it?

[Shadowknight12]

Wow, this forum has accumulated a lot of bitterness and bad blood over the years. It's all there, simmering under the surface.

[Tev]

Originally Posted by Tragak

Well, obviously I and everybody who agrees with me are just a sock-puppets created by The Giant to make people THINK that more than one person wants to find out what happens next in the story instead of just shouting urdoinitrong, as opposed to everyone else on the board who is real knows that character knowledge is not allowed to be incomplete.

Wait, no, I blew my cover! Why am I still typing this instead of deleting it?

You definitely chose the right post for responding, now you can act like a victim instead of actually adressing issues with your "campaign".

[Tragak]

Originally Posted by Tev

You definitely chose the right post for responding, now you can act like a victim instead of actually adressing issues with your "campaign".

The "issues" being that the people who want to insult The Giant's storytelling ability want more right to support each other than should the people who want to let The Giant let his characters make imperfect decisions with their imperfect capabilities, because we believe (falsely?) that a story about Mary Sues is less interesting than a story about characters and you know better?

[Mantine]

Originally Posted by Tev

You definitely chose the right post for responding, now you can act like a victim instead of actually adressing issues with your "campaign".

It's part of the standard protocol.
After "label someone names to demonize him" and "exaggerate what they say to make them look stupid" (of which Rakoa has given two beautiful examples so far), the third rule is "pick only battles you can win".
As in, ignore every discordant, argumentative post that goes against your cause but stand ready to appear as soon as some minor, more easily picked argument shows up.

Originally Posted by Tragak

The "issues" being that the people who want to insult The Giant's storytelling ability want more right to support each other than should the people who want to let The Giant let his characters make imperfect decisions with their imperfect capabilities, because we believe (falsely?) that a story about Mary Sues is less interesting than a story about characters and you know better?

The real problem here is that you seem to equal critic=insult.
Which is, needless to say, totally and utterly wrong.

[Dire Lemming]

I wholeheartedly support this.

At the least, people should recognize that this is Mr. Burlew's work; it isn't the decision of others as to whether he, say, decides to make Order of the Stick based on the Bourne film series in the middle of the final battle sequence.

[Kazul]

Originally Posted by Shadowknight12

Wow, this forum has accumulated a lot of bitterness and bad blood over the years. It's all there, simmering under the surface.

Dude, don't taunt the forum-killing abomination.