Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

[Gandariel]

Ops. My bad :)

[Quartz]

Originally Posted by RMS Oceanic

Team Evil

Xykon, pseudonym (SOD)
Chaotic Evil, Human male lich, Sorcerer 21+

Since Xykon cast a Maximised Energy Drain and can cast Epic spells, doesn't that point to him having at least 4 Epic feats? That would put him at level 26+. Epic feats coming at L21,23,24, and 26. The feats being Epic Spellcasting and Improved Spellcasting x3 The fight on the dragon where Roy died indicates that he must also have a huge Concentration skill as Roy did 55+ HP a swing against those mummies. And in episode 442, Xykon muses that hes got 7, 8, or even more levels on Roy.

[douglas]

Originally Posted by Quartz

Since Xykon cast a Maximised Energy Drain and can cast Epic spells, doesn't that point to him having at least 4 Epic feats? That would put him at level 26+. Epic feats coming at L21,23,24, and 26. The feats being Epic Spellcasting and Improved Spellcasting x3 The fight on the dragon where Roy died indicates that he must also have a huge Concentration skill as Roy did 55+ HP a swing against those mummies. And in episode 442, Xykon muses that hes got 7, 8, or even more levels on Roy.

That's another one of the big arguments that's been rehashed a lot without convincing anyone. Some people think explanations involving non-core feats (Sudden Maximize) or major magic items that aren't shown (greater metamagic rod of maximize) should be considered and are more likely than the sheer number of levels required for Xykon to have that many epic feats. Others think these alternative explanations are not viable without specific evidence and the number of levels required is within reason.

This disagreement grew into an enormous hostile debate with almost no one being convinced to change sides, and the resolution we ended up with is that the listed stats are a minimum that every explanation with significant backing require and, for the good of the thread, the argument itself is just dropped.

[Kurald Galain]

Originally Posted by Felixc-91

Something we might want to talk about, but it would depend on whether Qarr is actually Z'sfammilar or not: If I am reading this right, for Z to have Qarr as a famillar Z's alignment would have to be lawful neutral, lawful evil or neutral evil. The problem being that if Qarr isn't technically Z's fammilar then we have nothing concrete.

It strikes me that even if Qarr isn't Z's familiar any more, he used to be in the past, and therefore Z must meet all the prerequisites for having an imp familiar

Originally Posted by Emperordaniel

Yeah; I mean, in theory he could have Stand on Mount as low as 17th level, but it would require his Ride rank to be maxxed out and his having rolled a natural 20

Well, he also adds his dexterity modifier, which could be as high as +6 by now. Still, it does prove that he has the skill trained.

Originally Posted by douglas

That's another one of the big arguments that's been rehashed a lot without convincing anyone. Some people think explanations involving non-core feats (Sudden Maximize) or major magic items that aren't shown (greater metamagic rod of maximize) should be considered and are more likely than the sheer number of levels required for Xykon to have that many epic feats. Others think these alternative explanations are not viable without specific evidence and the number of levels required is within reason.

Basically this, but remember that Improved Spell Capacity is also a non-core feat. This one is in the FAQ; I think I should also add a FAQ entry for Belkar's wisdom, but as that's ages ago I'd have to think of a good wording.

However, it is worth considering what comic #442 indicates about Xykon's concentration skill (bearing in mind that he has a constitution modifier of zero).

[Yendor]

Originally Posted by Kurald Galain

However, it is worth considering what comic #442 indicates about Xykon's concentration skill (bearing in mind that he has a constitution modifier of zero).

He does show contempt at V blowing an "easy" Concentration check, which suggests he has a high score himself.

[Kurald Galain]

Originally Posted by Yendor

He does show contempt at V blowing an "easy" Concentration check, which suggests he has a high score himself.

Good point. Okay, so I think that Xykon definitely has the skill trained. It will be hard to pin down a number though.

[douglas]

Originally Posted by Kurald Galain

Basically this, but remember that Improved Spell Capacity is also a non-core feat.

It's as close to core as you can get for epic rules.

[Emperordaniel]

Originally Posted by Yendor

He does show contempt at V blowing an "easy" Concentration check, which suggests he has a high score himself.

But don't undead completely lack a Constitution score? If I remember right, the Concentration skill is CON-based, which means that Xykon would automatically fail every Concentration check he's subjected to.

[Kurald Galain]

Originally Posted by Emperordaniel

But don't undead completely lack a Constitution score? If I remember right, the Concentration skill is CON-based, which means that Xykon would automatically fail every Concentration check he's subjected to.

Wait wait wait. If I recall correctly, undead spellcasters make their concentration checks on charisma instead (which Xykon has in spades).

[Yendor]

Originally Posted by Emperordaniel

But don't undead completely lack a Constitution score? If I remember right, the Concentration skill is CON-based, which means that Xykon would automatically fail every Concentration check he's subjected to.

Being undead, Xykon would use his (high) Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.

[Psyren]

Xykon has no room to talk really, considering some mid-level paladins who weren't even overcoming his DR made him blow a 9th too.

Concentration checks in general are pretty hard to make in OotS. Someone made the corresponding joke that the Giant must be using Pathfinder rules after all

[RMS Oceanic]

Originally Posted by Psyren

Xykon has no room to talk really, considering some mid-level paladins who weren't even overcoming his DR made him blow a 9th too.

Concentration checks in general are pretty hard to make in OotS. Someone made the corresponding joke that the Giant must be using Pathfinder rules after all

Is it possible he blew that check on purpose to distract them from the bouncy ball of craziness?

[Living Oxymoron]

Originally Posted by Kurald Galain

Okay, so I'm thinking Tarquin has levels in monk (among other things), because he's used improved versions of deflect arrow and stunning fist (well, with an axe, but still). I don't think there's sufficient evidence for this yet but it would explain part of his abilities.

I agree, and there is a strong evidence that helps to prove it:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0853.html

Seems like he is evading Malack's Flame Strike. I think it's time to return to that discussion about the divine damage of this spell, because I don't think Tarquin would go unharmed against it even if he had magical protection against fire.

[Sr.medusa]

You can't evade with armor. Plus, armor catching and stning fist are fighter feats, too. For me, Tarquin is a Fighter with an insane number of feats in core, probably has a lot of situational feats like Blindfight, Catch arrows or Stunning fist. Plus, probably some item gives him fire inmunity.

[Living Oxymoron]

Sorry, I forgot that detail.

[Gift Jeraff]

Z has Teleport. Nale no longer has his longsword (which I now notice was never updated in the OP). Tarquin no longer has his axe.

[Pip]

Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff

Z has Teleport. Nale no longer has his longsword (which I now notice was never updated in the OP). Tarquin no longer has his axe.

And Z is not blind, and is thus level 16 as he was only deafened by the Holy Word.

[Yendor]

Both Tarquin and Zz'dtri have Speak Language: Drow Sign Language.

[Psyren]

Kilkil is 5-9 levels below Durkon; he was paralyzed this whole time.

EDIT: scratch the Nale bit.
EDIT2: Whoops, that was already on there.

[Hord Sin'orakos]

Another minor tidbit, but the reveal that Tarquin has Speak Language: Drow Sign Language means that we have either locked his Int from level 1 as 12+, or that he has at least one rank in Speak Language. Considering his monologue after revealing he knew the language, it seems to me that he picked up the skill rank in order to keep up with a "new fad" in the form of Drow characters everywhere.

[baerdith]

Originally Posted by douglas

It's as close to core as you can get for epic rules.

I agree, he is OBVIOUSLY epic as he mentions it, therefore he has the epic 'skills, spells, etc' therefore why would ISC be "non-core" ???

[Sorator]

Originally Posted by baerdith

I agree, he is OBVIOUSLY epic as he mentions it, therefore he has the epic 'skills, spells, etc' therefore why would ISC be "non-core" ???

Because it is, by a strict definition of 'core'. It's not in the PHB, DMG, or MM1. *shrug*

Yes, lots of people use "core" to refer to "basically everything in the SRD", but not everyone means that.

Also, the ELH was originally made for 3.0, not 3.5, and then somewhat-halfheartedly updated, so it doesn't always fit very well with the rest of 3.5. The distinction is valid.

[Quartz]

Originally Posted by douglas

That's another one of the big arguments that's been rehashed a lot without convincing anyone. Some people think ... more likely than the sheer number of levels required for Xykon to have that many epic feats.

Heh. Then I won't re-open the debate.

[ghoul-n]

Also, Tarquin is strong enough to carry Nale.

[Skaven]

Originally Posted by Psyren

Concentration checks in general are pretty hard to make in OotS.

Any and all saves in general seem to be hard to make, storytelling fiat makes spells almost universally effective to save panels and make magic work as a device.

[Psyren]

Originally Posted by Skaven

Any and all saves in general seem to be hard to make, storytelling fiat makes spells almost universally effective to save panels and make magic work as a device.

Nah, I wouldn't agree with this. The paladins for instance very rarely fail saves. Reflex saves tend to work (Haley, Nale, Sabine.) Disintegrate only one-shot one character (and an object) on-camera, in all other instances it failed to get the job done. Finger of Death has failed every time it's come out.

And then we have this

The one category of saves that fail regularly are will vs. charm/compulsion, and those tend to be used against weak-minded foes anyway (Belkar, Thog, Enor) so it's to be expected.

Originally Posted by Sorator

Because it is, by a strict definition of 'core'. It's not in the PHB, DMG, or MM1. *shrug*

Yes, lots of people use "core" to refer to "basically everything in the SRD", but not everyone means that.

Also, the ELH was originally made for 3.0, not 3.5, and then somewhat-halfheartedly updated, so it doesn't always fit very well with the rest of 3.5. The distinction is valid.

We have objective proof that ISC is in play. V does not possess any rods, and his splices have no objects either (being souls), yet he cast a 10th-level spell.

[Felixc-91]

Originally Posted by ghoul-n

Also, Tarquin is strong enough to carry Nale.

Yes, but unless we have a way to pin down Nale's weight, this doesn't help us much. i guess we could look at bare minimums, but unless we know what kind of armor T wears, our estimates are going to be, probably, off by a bit. Minimum height for human male is 5 feet tall, the corresponding weight (at the minimum possibility) is 124lbs. to be able to lift 124 lbs (as your maximum load) you need to have a str score of 12.
See carrying capacity and description pages in SRD for references.
Hmm, if we assume the armor he has on is at least as heavy as breastplate armor (30lbs, the same stuff Roy wears) then you can up T's min Str to 14.
I am guessing breastplate because T is clearly a fighter or fighter variant and therefore probably wears medium armor or heavier gear, since the only medium armor lighter than breastplate is hide armor (which is inferior to breastplate, with a lower max AC bonus) and no one commented on Thog wearing hide armor that we can probably rule it out.

[RustyVenture]

So do we have at least enough information to determine that Tarquin has the Ride skill trained?

[Emperordaniel]

Originally Posted by RustyVenture

So do we have at least enough information to determine that Tarquin has the Ride skill trained?

I believe we do. As that specific move he did has a DC of 40, and since his minimum character level is 17 and his minimum DEX score is 13, that would mean that he has at least 20 points in the skill after modifiers are taken into account, or 19 points before the Dexterity modifier is added (20 points before modifiers would indicate him having maxxed out the skill).

[Gift Jeraff]

Originally Posted by Felixc-91

Yes, but unless we have a way to pin down Nale's weight, this doesn't help us much. i guess we could look at bare minimums, but unless we know what kind of armor T wears, our estimates are going to be, probably, off by a bit. Minimum height for human male is 5 feet tall, the corresponding weight (at the minimum possibility) is 124lbs. to be able to lift 124 lbs (as your maximum load) you need to have a str score of 12.
See carrying capacity and description pages in SRD for references.
Hmm, if we assume the armor he has on is at least as heavy as breastplate armor (30lbs, the same stuff Roy wears) then you can up T's min Str to 14.
I am guessing breastplate because T is clearly a fighter or fighter variant and therefore probably wears medium armor or heavier gear, since the only medium armor lighter than breastplate is hide armor (which is inferior to breastplate, with a lower max AC bonus) and no one commented on Thog wearing hide armor that we can probably rule it out.

Nale is 5'11'' according to the wanted poster.