Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

[dps]

Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915

Dark glasses perform the same function as a blindfold: they obscure the eyes. I'm asking if there's any expression or change to the face that will indicate blindness. The closest I can find is here.

Also, the character's name in the comic linked by Pip was kind of a clue to the blindness. If we'd been introduced to the character without learning his name, would the sunglasses have been enough of a visual cue.

Come to think of it, haven't Roy and belkar both worn dark sunglasses at different times?

[2323mike]

In strip 520, panel 7, Tsukiko mentions Xykon has some spell(s) with which he "wrenched an accursed tower from the unhallowed ground". Maybe it should be mentioned in his spell list. Any ideas what kind of spell would do that?

[Living Oxymoron]

Originally Posted by Erelamar

17+ Level, clearly a close-combat (I'm trying not to say martial for fear of people confusing it with meaning martial adept) character with good Reflex and Will saves, and only has three attacks in a full round. These are the main reason that I don't believe he is a Warblade.

Best evidence of a high wisdom is 5th panel here. Nale does not understand because his intelligence is high, but his wisdom is poor. Swordsages add wisdom to AC, which would look more like whiffs than someone just taking it on their armor.

Evasion-appearing avoidance of area effect.

The later two require light armor, which stumped me for a long time, because we know Tarquin is in plate armor.Then I randomly discovered the Halfweight enhancement, which for +3 makes any armor considered light. Where is it? The Underdark sourcebook. BTW, I do believe Tarquin has been in this armor the whole time. That's why Durkon doesn't recognize it when he saw it with True Seeing, because he's only ever seen the Empire of Blood glamour.

A variety of manuevers performed by Tarquin that are easily replicated with martial manuevers, but not so with other abilities:

Black Pearl of Doubt (Diamond Mind 3) Thematically, it is very close to what is happening.
Death from Above (Tiger Claw 4)
Counter Charge (Setting Sun 1), Soaring Throw (Setting Sun 5) versus Belkar and Durkon respectively.
Irresistible Mountain Strike (Stone Dragon 6) on Roy and Durkon.
Quicksilver Motion (Diamond Mind 7). He uses it to move, then full round throws axe at Belkar.

Tiger Claw and Stone Dragon disciplines both have Greataxe as an associated weapon.

Some possible Tarquin Feats (If Tarquin's 17th, he has 7 feats)

Improved Unarmed Combat, Deflect Arrows, Snatch Arrows, Dodge, Sidestep Charge
Mounted Combat, Haley said she was attacking the Pterodactyl, and it does look like Tarquin is taking evasive action.
Martial Stance/Study, for some Devoted Spirit power to increase his healing beyond the Ring of Regeneration.

And, lastly, this build would conform to Malack's statement that Tarquin was not trying. In that fight he used only 6th level maneuvers and lower, which means since we know he is at least 17th level, he would have access all the way up to 9th level.

THIS WAS JUST AN EXCERCISE! I don't really believe this is Tarquin's build. It just happens to be a nifty way to do all the things he has done, and has been inferred he can still yet do. So there is a way without a bunch of multiclassing or prestige classing, or funny house-ruling things to perform all of Tarquin's actions, but it does take a real obscure armor enhancement.

Thanks to whomever first started mentioning this Tome of Battle stuff for solutions to Tarquin's first fight with the Order in the last thread, because it got me started down this path. I'm probably going to use this build as an NPC in some game.

It was just me or this was incredibly convincing?

[karkus]

Belkar's supposed "high level" has bugged me for so long. There is no way that he is 16th level, because he started out at a lower level and has fought less enemies than they (the rest of the Order) have. The only justification that I could think of would be his 7 attacks against Roy, but that looked to me more like a thematic fight with him. It's similar to the starmetal sword that Roy has, in that it glows when it's the right story-based time. I think that The Giant just added a random number of "thonk"s next to them.

Also, the "one craft feat" that Xykon has is Craft Wonderous Item. It specifically states in the MM that you need CWI to make the phylactery.

[Sorator]

Originally Posted by Flame of Anor

Vaarsuvius has significant ranks in Knowledge: Religion.

I'd take that as more Knowledge: The Planes, to me. (I'm assuming you're referring to panel 2?)

Originally Posted by karkus

The only justification that I could think of would be his 7 attacks against Roy, but that looked to me more like a thematic fight with him. It's similar to the starmetal sword that Roy has, in that it glows when it's the right story-based time.

You mean the sword with an entire thread dedicated to debating the exact mechanics regarding its activation?

Also, the "one craft feat" that Xykon has is Craft Wonderous Item. It specifically states in the MM that you need CWI to make the phylactery.

Very good point.

By the way, if we do have Belkar set firmly at 16, should we not also have Durkon at 16? Since Belkar was deafened by the holy word, I'd think that counts as having demonstrated leveling up to 16 and not just 15 (and since he wasn't deafened, not as far as 17).

[zimmerwald1915]

Originally Posted by Sorator

Very good point.

Not so very much. SoD spoilers:

Spoiler

Redcloak crafts the phylactery, thus it is he who definitely has Craft Wondrous Item. Xykon may have Craft Wondrous Item, but there's no proof of it.

By the way, if we do have Belkar set firmly at 16, should we not also have Durkon at 16? Since Belkar was deafened by the holy word, I'd think that counts as having demonstrated leveling up to 16 and not just 15 (and since he wasn't deafened, not as far as 17).

Durkon gets +1 to Good spells from the Good domain. If he's level 15, his effective caster level for holy word is 16, enough to deafen Belkar but not to blind him.

[Kurald Galain]

Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915

Durkon gets +1 to Good spells from the Good domain. If he's level 15, his effective caster level for holy word is 16, enough to deafen Belkar but not to blind him.

I think I'll add that to the FAQ, I've been seeing this question a lot.

[karkus]

Originally Posted by Sorator

You mean the sword with an entire thread dedicated to debating the exact mechanics regarding its activation?

Yes; I saw that thread and thought it sounded a little silly at first.

But unless if Belkar has had some massive solo adventure that I don't remember within the past hundred of so strips, I am confident that he is not level 16.

[Steven]

Originally Posted by karkus

Belkar's supposed "high level" has bugged me for so long. There is no way that he is 16th level, because he started out at a lower level and has fought less enemies than they (the rest of the Order) have.

Where is it established he started at a lower level?

[zimmerwald1915]

In strip 125 Haley surmises that Belkar started with slightly less XP than the rest of the Order, not enough to actually be lower-level than them, but enough to level...one strip after the rest of them. He was indeed lower-level than the rest of the Order for that one strip.

[Crusher]

Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915

In strip 125 Haley surmises that Belkar started with slightly less XP than the rest of the Order, not enough to actually be lower-level than them, but enough to level...one strip after the rest of them. He was indeed lower-level than the rest of the Order for that one strip.

Indeed. Technically it was Elan in strip 124.

[Sorator]

Second panel implies some ranks in Sleight of Hand for Haley, doesn't it?

[ghoul-n]

But unless if Belkar has had some massive solo adventure that I don't remember within the past hundred of so strips, I am confident that he is not level 16.

Well, Belkar had some solid 3 months resistance action in Azure City while Roy was dead.

Also that character development thingy @ mark of justice could technically be counted as solo quest and be rewarded with exp.

[karkus]

Originally Posted by ghoul-n

Well, Belkar had some solid 3 months resistance action in Azure City while Roy was dead.

Also that character development thingy @ mark of justice could technically be counted as solo quest and be rewarded with exp.

Yes, but it stated multiple times that he only got the OCCASIONAL ghoul/ghast/wight/etc. to (re)kill, AND he had the few levels he earned quickly drained away from him, at least once (I'm pretty sure that it was in the big war at Azure City), but possibly twice (during the time that he was in the Resistance) or even more times than that.

Although, there IS the possibility of a story-based XP reward from him getting rid of the Mark...

Okay, sure. But I still think that there's only a ~30% chance that he's 16th level.

[zimmerwald1915]

Negative levels don't work that way. The negative level we see Belkar gain in the fight with Black Squadron could have drained his level permanently after 24 hours, or he could have made his Fortitude save (he's a Ranger/Barbarian and the DC is 14, he has a good chance of it), and shrugged off the negative level. We don't actually know what became of that level, only that it's never mentioned again...just like most other level-ups.

[Flame of Anor]

Originally Posted by Sorator

I'd take that as more Knowledge: The Planes, to me. (I'm assuming you're referring to panel 2?)

I am, but I stick to my claim that it's Knowledge: Religion. Now, Roy and Vaarsuvius are clearly discussing undead. Even if Vaarsuvius had somehow thought "how much do you know about spirits" meant "how much do you know about Outsiders", as the discussion goes on, Roy is explicitly talking about ghosts, and Vaarsuvius clearly demonstrates familiarity with ghostly messages (panel 6). Now, let me quote the SRD:

Originally Posted by SRD

Knowledge (Int; Trained Only)

...

• Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead)

So, since Vaarsuvius's knowledge of the undead is "unmatched", and undead are covered by Knowledge: Religion, Vaarsuvius clearly has high ranks in Knowledge: Religion.

[Kish]

I don't see a reason to treat it as anything other than high ranks in Bragging--which we know very well Vaarsuvius has. His/her knowledge and power of everything is unmatched, just ask him/her.

(...Continuing to frown at the Summon Employee Exit "spell" listed, let me hasten to add that I do not support adding an actual Bragging skill to Vaarsuvius' listing. It's a figure of speech.)

[Dark Matter]

Originally Posted by Steven

Where is it established he started at a lower level?

Yeah but the higher levels need more and more exp to gain.

Or in other words, although Belkar started out X experience less than everyone else, "X" becomes less and less important as the level gets higher.

Further, Roy lost a level from being dead and didn't earn experience while he was dead.
V & Durkon have spent a fair amount of time researching as opposed to adventuring.

Elan, Haley, and Belkar could easily be a level higher than Roy, V, & Durkon.

[zimmerwald1915]

Originally Posted by Flame of Anor

So, since Vaarsuvius's knowledge of the undead is "unmatched", and undead are covered by Knowledge: Religion, Vaarsuvius clearly has high ranks in Knowledge: Religion.

And yet V fails to recognize a ghast later in the same dungeon (she did recognize that they were ghouls - ghasts are a stronger form of ghoul - so props for that). I'm on my phone at the moment, so archive-diving to determine whether she recognized the death knight for what it was is beyond me, but I don't remember her ever speaking that name. She probably has some ranks in Knowledge (religion), to explain being able to recognize ghouls and at least one of their abilities, but probably not very many.

[Dark Matter]

"unmatched" doesn't have to mean "very high".

Literally it just means "different from anyone else".

[JCAll]

V did threaten to return to life as a vengeful spellcasting ghost at one point.
Would knowing how to do that be covered under Knowledge Religion as well?

[zimmerwald1915]

Originally Posted by JCAll

V did threaten to return to life as a vengeful spellcasting ghost at one point.
Would knowing how to do that be covered under Knowledge Religion as well?

Y'know, it probably would.

[EmperorSarda]

Originally Posted by Dark Matter

Further, Roy lost a level from being dead and didn't earn experience while he was dead.

Where is it said that Roy didn't earn xp while dead? What was the evil adventuring party, kibble and bits?

[zimmerwald1915]

Originally Posted by EmperorSarda

Where is it said that Roy didn't earn xp while dead? What was the evil adventuring party, kibble and bits?

Judging by how easily they died? Pretty much, yeah.

[Steven]

I would doubt that you could gain xp while in the afterlife. Otherwise I'm sure Roy would have hit the dungeon of challenging monsters and leveled up to epic while he was there.

As would every other dead adventurer.

[snoopy13a]

Originally Posted by Sorator

Second panel implies some ranks in Sleight of Hand for Haley, doesn't it?

This strip is further evidence:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0673.html

[EvilAvocado]

In Strip 815(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0815.html) Tarquin tells Kilkil to "fly ahead". Can we gather anything about his minimum(or max since this implies him hustling) speed by subtracting the Brontosaurus's speed? At the very least he has to be going faster than it.


Edt: I tried looking up Brontosaurus speed in the SRD and I can't even find a listing for one.

[EvilAvocado]

In strip 816(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html) during the flashback one of the members of Tarquin's opposition groups states the treasure will be enough to raise an army of 10,000 men.

Is there anywhere in the rules which states how much that can cost and if so, could we extrapolate the level of his party at the time using WBL?

*not sure if this route is valid*


PS. All these posts are due to my transition from 2 year lurker to poster.

[Emperordaniel]

Judging from Tarquin's treatment of his pterosaur mount, I'd say he has more than a few ranks in Handle Animal.

[Shreav]

Via 863, Tarquin has a whip and an extra-strength version of Keoghtum Ointment that, by the word of Giant, also cures deafness.