XCOM: One Does Not Simply "Shoot" a Cryssalid...

[Bouregard]

So I now plan on turning the tables on the aliens... giving them something of their own medicine so to speak...I plan to mass abduct aliens for their sweet little guns and equipment. But how to do it? Ech time I took a prisoner it almost always resulted in a dead soldier.

So whats your favourite squad?

2 Assault Flankers
1 Support Medic
1 Sniper
rest will be filled depending on mission objective. But you can't have to many assaults, gun&run is seriously overpowered

[thorgrim29]

A crit based assault colonel is to be scary, like one-shot the huge walkers scary. He runs into contact with run and gun, and rapid-fires with an alloy cannon. with any luck, he gets 2 crits, boom.

For a while I ran with 2 snipers, 2 assault, and 2 support, but lately I switched one of the snipers for a heavy (btw, your heavy likes SCOPES)

[NEO|Phyte]

Originally Posted by Bouregard

So I now plan on turning the tables on the aliens... giving them something of their own medicine so to speak...I plan to mass abduct aliens for their sweet little guns and equipment. But how to do it? Ech time I took a prisoner it almost always resulted in a dead soldier.

Easy way to loot alien gear is to mind control something, then run it into enemy fire. Thanks to the wonders of the guy being on your team when he dies, his gear doesn't self-destruct like it normally does.

As for squads, 6 SHIVs has proven hilariously effective, but meatsquads I go with a squad sight sniper, rocketheavy, shotgun assault focusing on not getting dead, rifle assault focusing on crits, medic support, combat support.

[tensai_oni]

Originally Posted by Bouregard

So I now plan on turning the tables on the aliens... giving them something of their own medicine so to speak...I plan to mass abduct aliens for their sweet little guns and equipment. But how to do it? Ech time I took a prisoner it almost always resulted in a dead soldier.

Low-tier aliens are easy to stun, especially with the upgrade that ups the capture threshold to 6 HP. As for others...

Suppress them! Suppression is awesome in general, which makes Heavies and Supports my favorite classes in this order. A suppressed alien will be like planet Earth itself - mostly harmless. You can easily approach it with your stun guy and then do the deed. Even if the alien tries to shoot your soldier as he approaches, 95% of the time it will miss.

[Zevox]

Originally Posted by Anarion

Mind controlling an ethereal is an achievement and it's really hard. The way I did it was to use two guys with psionics in several steps. First, both of them had psi-armor, so they were above 100 will. Then I used the inspiration ability to give them another 20 will. That gave me two psionic troops that were at 121 and 125 will for a two turn period. One of them then used mindfray on the ethereal, which had about a 45% hit chance, and getting that off reduces its will. I got lucky and hit. Then the other used mind control, which, after all that, had a 69% hit chance.

If you want to do it safely, I suggest a minimum of 3 psionic troops in psi armor and with inspiration up. 4-5 would be better.

Interesting to know. If it all it's good for is an achievement though, I won't bother. I don't care about those in the least, and it would be much easier to just kill the darn things.

Originally Posted by Anarion

Oh and Zevox, you're getting lucky. I had been doing the same Muton thing, but then one time the ethereal killed a muton and it counted as a friendly death, made one of my guys panic and shoot another party member in the back.

Surprising, but I'm not sure that's me getting lucky so much as you getting unlucky.

Originally Posted by Bouregard

So whats your favourite squad?

2 Assault Flankers
1 Support Medic
1 Sniper
rest will be filled depending on mission objective. But you can't have to many assaults, gun&run is seriously overpowered

I don't know that I have a "favorite," but the squad I consider to be my best, which I use when I expect the fight to be difficult, would be:

2 Supports, Yukiko "Snow Black" Amagi and Rise "Idol" Kujikawa. Plasma Rifles and Archangel Armor, med-kits and either a scope or nano-fiber vest (due to previously-mentioned bug about second slot items). Both have all of the med-kit-related upgrades.
1 Assault, Chie "Carnivore" Satonaka. Psionic (Mindfray, Panic, Mind Control). Plasma Rifle and Psi Armor, Alien Grenade or Arc Thrower (used to always use Arc Thrower, now I mostly go Grenade, since I no longer need to interrogate enemies).
1 Heavy, Labrys "Steel." Psionic (Mindfray, Psi Inspiration, Telekinetic Field). Heavy Plasma, Titan Armor, Scope.
1 Sniper, Yukari "Gale" Takeba or Yosuke "Ressentiment" Hanamura. Plasma Sniper, Plasma Pistol, and Ghost Armor. Yukari takes a med-kit (character flavor reasons), Yosuke a vest or scope (depending on what I feel like).

The remaining spot gets filled by either a Heavy or an Assault, depending on what I feel like at the time. None of my other Assaults have made Colonel yet, but a couple are close. I've got two other Colonel Heavies, though.

...oh, and I got another of Schrondinger's SHIVs. Had to replace my third Alloyed one, and the fourth is suffering the same bug as the second. That would be extremely annoying if it weren't for the fact that I'm at the point where these things are easy to churn out and I have a ton of money and alloy to do it with.

Edit: ...and it looks like I won't be making Alloyed SHIVs for the rest of this game. My replacement one is also suffering this bug. And I've tried reloading several times, canceling the order and placing another one, rushing or not rushing the order, it all ends up the same. Don't know why I've gotten two without the bug if it's this consistent, but I'm not wasting money on something with a bug like this anymore.

On the up side, got to test a Hover SHIV. Makes a great scout (starts with 12 turns of fly fuel), and I think its hp is the same an Alloyed one. Doesn't grant cover like an Alloyed one though.

Zevox

[Trazoi]

I've picked up the game now and liking what I've seen so far. I think the streamlining helps the flow of the game considerably.

Playing through the tutorial, most of my in-game problems are coming from assuming classic XCOM gameplay strategies while still learning the ropes. I ended up putting both satellites over Europe to get a lock-in since at that stage I didn't know how they handled bases and interceptors in other continents. This meant I've ended up with loads of researchers but only 5 engineers, and you need 6 to build the Workshop that gets you more in order to build anything. I've had to wait until the game throws me a bone with a mission to give me more as a reward - which means I've also had to let panic levels in North America rise to near breaking point. I never seem to hang on to the U.S. in XCOM games.

[mistformsquirrl]

My favorite squad is:

2 Assaults geared toward defense - these are my scouts and general brawlers. I use rifles on them for the added range.

2 Supports, 1 geared entirely toward medicine, the other has the 3-Medikit use ability, but otherwise is geared toward other abilities. These are naturally my medics; but they also are pretty good backup troopers to the assaults as well.

1 Heavy with Bullet Swarm, HEAT ammo too if I'm high enough. The heavy is there for when a situation requires raw brute force - and I find a HEAT Rocket to be the last word in Cyberdisk annihilation.

1 Sniper with Gunslinger* and Squadsight. The Sniper sits waaaaaaaaaaay back as high up as I can put them, and spends a great deal of the early match on overwatch. They tend to do a great job eliminating enemies doing their "Get to cover" move.

*As odd as it may seem to give up Damn Good Ground, I find Gunslinger more useful more often. There are plenty of times where my sniper is my last unit able to act before the aliens go, and something NEEDS to die, but the sniper can't bring the rifle to bear for some reason. The pistol is also more accurate at close ranges, which is immensely useful if you've got a low-health Chryssalid trying to eat your face.

Oh and one other thing: If you need to move your sniper, you can switch to the pistol and still get overwatch that way - the range is a lot worse, but it's still good to do if you're at all worried about something popping out and trying to eat your face.

[Zevox]

Originally Posted by mistformsquirrl

*As odd as it may seem to give up Damn Good Ground, I find Gunslinger more useful more often. There are plenty of times where my sniper is my last unit able to act before the aliens go, and something NEEDS to die, but the sniper can't bring the rifle to bear for some reason. The pistol is also more accurate at close ranges, which is immensely useful if you've got a low-health Chryssalid trying to eat your face.

Oh and one other thing: If you need to move your sniper, you can switch to the pistol and still get overwatch that way - the range is a lot worse, but it's still good to do if you're at all worried about something popping out and trying to eat your face.

I've been wondering a bit about that myself, after seeing some late-game stuff for pistols. The Plasma Pistol does up to 4 damage per shot base, and the third pistol improvement from the foundry gives all pistols +1 damage. Add in Gunslinger and suddenly you have late-game pistols doing up to 7 damage, most likely not less than 5. Pretty good for a sniper without the move-and-attack ability.

Speaking of, I've been putting that to the test with my third sniper. It's... okay. It is kind of nice being able to move and shoot with a sniper. But honestly I find it hard to take advantage of it as much as you'd expect, since it incurs a -20 to hit when you do it. Which kinda makes a world of difference. Of course, a shot at -20 is better than no shot at all... but squadsight often gives you a shot when a sniper without it would have to move and shoot. So I'm leaning towards squadsight as the superior ability.

Zevox

[GloatingSwine]

Squadsight is captain cheese for snipers. Like, don't leave home without this cheese. My boss sniper has just unlocked double tap, but will be spending half a month in the infirmary now because chryssalids, fortunately I have several backups with squadsight.

So far I play 2x heavy, 2x support, 1x assault, and 1x sniper.

Heavies both have bullet swarm because attacking twice per round for a second level guy is pretty damn cheesy, as is being able to attack and then run away if the situation demands it.

Assault is for going in first and eating a reaction shot with Lightning Reflexes. He's got a plasma rifle at the moment because I don't have shotguns on that tier yet, but he's still as effective with that as with the scatter laser.

Supports are for general mid range fighting business, and the sniper is for long range cheese.

[Triaxx]

Can't find the wiki for the new game, so can someone remind me what Damn Good Ground does?

[thorgrim29]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H3o8r7JgGY

That, for snipers

[Zevox]

Originally Posted by Triaxx

Can't find the wiki for the new game, so can someone remind me what Damn Good Ground does?

Bonus to aim and defense when you have the high ground relative to an opponent (in addition to what you normally get for that). I think it was +10 and +20 respectively, but I could be misremembering, as I haven't tried to memorize that.

Zevox

[JMobius]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if ascending to max height with the Archangel armor grants the Damn Good Ground bonus?

[Zevox]

Originally Posted by JMobius

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if ascending to max height with the Archangel armor grants the Damn Good Ground bonus?

I don't know for sure, but I suspect not. Flying seems to incur its own aim/defense modifiers, which are similar to but not considered the same as high ground ones. When you look at the breakdown of a shot's aim in battle, opponents like Floaters will have a -15 or 20% (I forget which) to your shot listed as a flight bonus, for example.

Actually, speaking of, which armor type does everyone think is better for Snipers - Archangel or Ghost? I've been using Ghost, since it gets both the grappling hook and invisibility, but Archangel would let them get a great view anywhere, plus the flight bonuses, and it gives a couple points more health boost than Ghost. The downdside that I'm worried about though is the part where they'll be exposed for everything in range of them to shoot at. And the limited fuel, but I've recently grabbed Advanced Flight, so I've doubled that now, making it a bit less of an issue.

Zevox

[Impnemo]

Originally Posted by Anarion

Edit: in case anyone is curious, here are the ethereal abilities

Spoiler

vortex: massive area of effect psionic explosion that creates a one turn area of difficult terrain and deals ~14 damage (variable based on target's willpower). I haven't entered the difficult terrain, so I don't know if it deals damage or just slows or something. 5 turn cooldown.

Spoiler

Vortex deals that damage to any unit in or entering its affect for the duration, and affects friendlies.

[shadow_archmagi]

Bullet Swarm vs Holo Targeting, a contemplation:

The damage gained by Holo Targeting is negligible (If your team goes from, say, 30 to 40% chance to hit, you only turn a profit on attack number four, and if it's going from 70 to 80, then shooting twice is pretty much always better. Unless, I suppose, you have a squad of all heavies with bullet swarm and thus have the ten attacks to make it worthwhile.) but the increase to hit is invaluable for special attacks. Making sure my Sniper's Disabling Shot, or my Assault's Flush Them Out succeeds is to my mind better than an extra wave of bullets.

[NEO|Phyte]

Originally Posted by Zevox

Actually, speaking of, which armor type does everyone think is better for Snipers - Archangel or Ghost? I've been using Ghost, since it gets both the grappling hook and invisibility, but Archangel would let them get a great view anywhere, plus the flight bonuses, and it gives a couple points more health boost than Ghost. The downside that I'm worried about though is the part where they'll be exposed for everything in range of them to shoot at. And the limited fuel, but I've recently grabbed Advanced Flight, so I've doubled that now, making it a bit less of an issue.

I've been using Ghost, more for the defense bonus and increased move speed than anything. On your worries, if your sniper is Squad Sight (and he really should be), he won't be in range of the beasties anyway. Fuel is certainly an issue, Only flight I've played with is Hover SHIVs with Advanced Flight, and they get 24 units of fuel, which has been more than enough for the amount of flight I actually make use of.

[Vitruviansquid]

I'm not convinced of the usefulness of Bullet Swarm either, if only because Heavy weapons only have 3 shots before needing to reload.

[king.com]

Originally Posted by Vitruviansquid

I'm not convinced of the usefulness of Bullet Swarm either, if only because Heavy weapons only have 3 shots before needing to reload.

That makes your combat go: Turn 1 - shoot shoot, Turn 2 - shoot reload, Turn 3- shoot shoot

As opposed to Turn 1 - move shoot, Turn 2 - move shoot, Turn 3- move shoot.

This results in you shooting 5 times provided you can stay still (before you get ammo conservation project at the foundry which negates the problem anyway). This is obviously better not to mention that missing on the first hit often destroys cover once your up to lasers or plasma weapons. Resulting in the next shot rapidly improving your chances to hit.

What im saying is.....Bullet Storm is amazing you should always take it as giving your Rookies a SCOPE will make it identical to holo-targeting. Also come to think of it, you never really want to actually have to shoot multiple times at the same target or your likely to have people dying in the next turn.

Originally Posted by Zevox

Actually, speaking of, which armor type does everyone think is better for Snipers - Archangel or Ghost? I've been using Ghost, since it gets both the grappling hook and invisibility, but Archangel would let them get a great view anywhere, plus the flight bonuses, and it gives a couple points more health boost than Ghost. The downdside that I'm worried about though is the part where they'll be exposed for everything in range of them to shoot at. And the limited fuel, but I've recently grabbed Advanced Flight, so I've doubled that now, making it a bit less of an issue.

Almost always that answer is going to be Archangel. Pop them up to the top corner of the map and have them squad sight everything to death. With a SCOPE and a plasma sniper, along with double tap you can kill everything in 1 turn except perhaps a sectopod. Though a couple of crits can drop that too.

Aliens dont get squad sight so you run your assault with ghost armour right up to your opponent and have them shot from across the map.

The only exception is perhaps the big UFO clean-ups which get wierd and messy but at that point i prefer Titan armour as they are hanging back anyway.

Originally Posted by JMobius

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if ascending to max height with the Archangel armor grants the Damn Good Ground bonus?

Just checked this and yes....yes it does.

[NEO|Phyte]

Furthermore, autopsying a Muton gives you a foundry project to double the shots you get between reloads.

[Zevox]

Originally Posted by Impnemo

Spoiler

Vortex deals that damage to any unit in or entering its affect for the duration, and affects friendlies.

Spoiler

Well, that last likely explains why the AI never seems to use it. If it has an area Anarion would describe as "massive," doing damage to its allies - or even itself, depending on the current terrain - would be a big concern, one the AI may be programmed to be extremely cautious about.

Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi

The damage gained by Holo Targeting is negligible (If your team goes from, say, 30 to 40% chance to hit, you only turn a profit on attack number four, and if it's going from 70 to 80, then shooting twice is pretty much always better. Unless, I suppose, you have a squad of all heavies with bullet swarm and thus have the ten attacks to make it worthwhile.) but the increase to hit is invaluable for special attacks. Making sure my Sniper's Disabling Shot, or my Assault's Flush Them Out succeeds is to my mind better than an extra wave of bullets.

But how often will that come into play? There's almost always something better to do with a Heavy than fire at something specifically for holo-targetting, and if you hit something with a Heavy's attack, you usually have little need for a Sniper's disabling shot, and not much more often for an Assault Flush. Bullet Storm meanwhile adds both damage potential and flexibility to a Heavy, since you can double-shoot or shoot then move with it.

Personally, I had one Heavy I took holo-targetting with, my very first. I got almost no use out of it, and haven't taken it with any of my heavies since.

Originally Posted by NEO|Phyte

I've been using Ghost, more for the defense bonus and increased move speed than anything. On your worries, if your sniper is Squad Sight (and he really should be), he won't be in range of the beasties anyway. Fuel is certainly an issue, Only flight I've played with is Hover SHIVs with Advanced Flight, and they get 24 units of fuel, which has been more than enough for the amount of flight I actually make use of.

Increased move speed? I wasn't aware Ghost armor gave that too. Definitely want that to stay on my move-and-shoot sniper, then.

I know squad sight makes the issue of flight exposing you to fire less of an issue, but it's still terrain-dependant. Inside UFOs, for instance, it's very hard to be outside of the range of an enemy you can see. Only the biggest rooms have that potential. Same deal with missions centered on a large building or two. On a fairly open map with mostly low cover, like most non-city abduction missions, yeah, that'd largely solve the issue, but plenty of missions don't have that luxury.

Originally Posted by Vitruviansquid

I'm not convinced of the usefulness of Bullet Swarm either, if only because Heavy weapons only have 3 shots before needing to reload.

Only before picking up ammo conservation, which is possibly the best thing you can get out of the Foundry. Plus you can fire and then reload with Bullet Swarm, if have at least one shot left and you don't need to move or fire a second time that round.

Originally Posted by king.com

Aliens dont get squad sight so you run your assault with ghost armour right up to your opponent and have them shot from across the map.

I've been running my Assaults mostly with Titan armor, actually. Being on the front lines as they usually are, I want them with as much durability as possible. The exception is my main Assault, Chie, because she's psionic, so I gave her Psi Armor. And a nano-fiber vest, to help make up for the substantially lower hp boost that gives her compared to other high-end armor.

Originally Posted by king.com

Just checked this and yes....yes it does.

Well now, that's surprising. And a ringing endorsement for Archangel Armor on Snipers.

Zevox

[king.com]

Originally Posted by Zevox

I've been running my Assaults mostly with Titan armor, actually. Being on the front lines as they usually are, I want them with as much durability as possible. The exception is my main Assault, Chie, because she's psionic, so I gave her Psi Armor. And a nano-fiber vest, to help make up for the substantially lower hp boost that gives her compared to other high-end armor.

Dash across the map cloaked and sit right behind an Elite Muton, then shoot it with your sniper. Next turn taser and loot the heavy plasma.

[mistformsquirrl]

Don't forget Ammo Conservation later on - once you get that you can double-shoot 3 turns in a row without reloading; and then there's the fact that Bullet Swarm isn't just a double-shot... it lets you do ANY single action after shooting if you like. <@_@> It's crazy nice.

Holotargeting imo needs an immense buff to be worthwhile.

---

As for Archangel vs Ghost... I'm not finding Archangel especially useful TBH. I almost never am in situations where being able to fly is better than just running across the terrain and hitting solid cover. There are rare occasions where it's nice; but I think if I had Ghost armor, I'd be using it most probably.

---

Btw - I'm considering building a Hover SHIV; but I want to ask before I do:

If I later upgrade my SHIVs to use Plasma weapons (right now they'd have Lasers), will my built SHIV get the upgrade? Or do I need to build a brand new one? Because I'm thinking I'll have plasma weapons soon, and I don't want to waste the resources on a Hover SHIV if it's going to be stuck with a laser weapon when I've moved into the Plasma era.

[NEO|Phyte]

You don't build minigun/laser/plasma shivs, you build regular/alloy/hover shivs. Whatever upgrades you have beyond that apply to past present and future shivs.

[Zevox]

Originally Posted by king.com

Dash across the map cloaked and sit right behind an Elite Muton, then shoot it with your sniper. Next turn taser and loot the heavy plasma.

What does that have to do with me wanting my assaults to have high health?

Besides, I've got all the heavy plasmas I need, thanks to all the Muton Elites I've mind-controlled and had killed by their allies.

Originally Posted by mistformsquirrl

If I later upgrade my SHIVs to use Plasma weapons (right now they'd have Lasers), will my built SHIV get the upgrade? Or do I need to build a brand new one? Because I'm thinking I'll have plasma weapons soon, and I don't want to waste the resources on a Hover SHIV if it's going to be stuck with a laser weapon when I've moved into the Plasma era.

Your existing ones get the upgrade, I believe.

Zevox

[king.com]

Originally Posted by Zevox

What does that have to do with me wanting my assaults to have high health?

Besides, I've got all the heavy plasmas I need, thanks to all the Muton Elites I've mind-controlled and had killed by their allies.

I was saying thats my reasoning behind putting an assault in ghost armour. If your talking about psionics, the entire game becomes a cakewalk once they show up. The game unfortunately has a crumbing difficulty curve in the late game...

[Impnemo]

I would make the case for suppression + holo-targeting, even after ammo conservation comes into play, just because its a great way to lock down and chip at big things like cyberdisks and sectopods. With heat ammo and the tech level damage upgrade to suppression, and as many shots as those damned sectos can get off in one round, its paid dividends for me.

Lets assume you take four shots on target at 70, 80, and 90%. Check my math, that'll be something like a 25% chance to land all four, a 40% chance, and a 66% chance. Most cases? Ya, better off the other way. But for the scary stuff this is handy.

[king.com]

Originally Posted by Impnemo

I would make the case for suppression + holo-targeting, even after ammo conservation comes into play, just because its a great way to lock down and chip at big things like cyberdisks and sectopods. With heat ammo and the tech level damage upgrade to suppression, and as many shots as those damned sectos can get off in one round, its paid dividends for me.

Lets assume you take four shots on target at 70, 80, and 90%. Check my math, that'll be something like a 25% chance to land all four, a 40% chance, and a 66% chance. Most cases? Ya, better off the other way. But for the scary stuff this is handy.

If I can get a heavy in place against a sectopod, Im far more likely to want to either double shot with heat ammo or blaster bomb than to get a single shot and hope my supports/assaults finish it off. The sniper is running 90% shots atleast anyway so I feel confident it can hit one of the two shots it has. Run and gun with an assault with lightening reflexes and rapid fire at close range for the finish if i really need it.

[Anarion]

The sniper at max height with squad sight thing only works for outdoor enemies, correct? I believe the shot is blocked when they go inside.

Unfortunately, aside from snipers, I've found flight armor to be generally subpar, and much worse than the original X-com's flight armor. What made flight armor good in the original is that it also had the most actual armor, and flying was just a perk. Plus, anyone could fire at any distance as long as there was a clear line of fire, so flying was always good in the original. This time around I don't see much advantage except for snipers at max height, as everyone else does way better with ghost or titan armor.

On the holo-targeting debate, I'd say that it varies. Remember that bullet storm only gives you the extra action if firing is your first action in a round. If you have to move in order to get a line of fire, holo-targeting is strictly better. I put holo on my first heavy, and it was amazing to advance him as a scout. He would move up, get a line of fire, tag a strong enemy, and then the snipers would be guaranteed to finish it off. Assault troopers come in behind and clean up the small potatoes. Rinse, repeat. Holo-targeting is also an excellent assist for training up new rookies, where you're trying to manipulate who gets the kill.


I also finished my first run through just a little while ago. Some thoughts

Spoiler

The ending made me sad. I was attached to Scootaloo, and she died to save the entire planet.

double tap is basically the best thing ever because snipers are so absurdly strong. Even the final ethereal pretty much drops to two snipers with double tap. Especially if you mind control the mutons first and have them blow up the platform with grenades so that the ethereal has no cover and 10 less hp.

My biggest regret over the whole game is that they cut the lightning and the avenger. I know that neither made sense since the skyranger just gets you to targets automatically and isn't even in the hanger, but just having interceptors and firestorms was sad.

Most fun thing was realizing that I didn't really need to recover anything from the aliens past a certain point and going wild with explosives. Blaster bombs and alien grenades for all!

[mistformsquirrl]

@NEO|Phyte and Zevox - Thank you both <._.>b that's what I'd hoped for.

----

In sad news: Col. Hernandez, someone who's been with me since Mission 1 on this playthrough, and the best damn sniper I've ever had... is dead. It was my first encountered with a Sectopod, my entire squad had terrible positioning for the fight (We were all up on the roof of a UFO fighting mutons below... killed the mutons when the Sectopod showed up.)

So yeah, she took a 16 damage critical to the face, and was in critical condition, I revived her in time... but the sectopod got one last shot off and instead of aiming at the heavy that was killing it, the sectopod spitefully killed Col. Hernandez instead.

<;_;> *plays bagpipe mournfully*