OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread

[UnderTheMoon]

The Unearthed Arcana reference was amazing!

[Emperordaniel]

Originally Posted by Forikroder

its guaranteed Nale would die, only way to save nale is by sacrificing his weapon, theres no scenario to keep both so he etiher sacrifice Nale (and lose any shot at getting info on the gates) or sack his axe (and be forced to retreat)

the Axe he can get back or get a back up the Nale he cannot

That's...basically what I said, sans axe.

[Shatteredtower]

Originally Posted by Forikroder

even with a good explanation behind it since its never hinted or shown he knows drow sign language then it becomes a deus ex machina

When?

This sort of thing is why the Giant wrote what I've quoted in my signature. There's no need for what you want. It doesn't just waste panels. It wastes the Giant's time on trying to figure out how to make those extra panels less of a waste.

It's not a DEM just because you didn't know enough to have anticipated it. Knowing the option exists, it's just the resource to expect from someone who's managed to pull strings manipulating many regimes for roughly two decades. This resource would have come as no surprise to anyone playing a 1st Edition character, an experience shared by several other characters of his age. (Favourites from Greyhawk or the Realms haven't been refitted for a later edition, so why not?)

He's not an interesting character for being invincible, which he is not. He's not one of those villains where you wonder how he could possibly be successful at the task he's been doing, but that's not the same as invincible. Neither is that what makes him interesting. No, the interesting part is the ruthlessly evil loving father, a genre savvy foe with an astounding blind spot when it comes to one (perhaps both) of his sons. His ambition is to become legendary in an environment where no one can remember who occupied a throne a week ago. If previous antagonists are any indicator, he's going to be disappointed. Should be fun to watch, too, after it's been marinated to perfection in the sauce of anticipation. (No, not Heinz ketchup.)

[Throknor]

Originally Posted by Forikroder

even with a good explanation behind it since its never hinted or shown he knows drow sign language then it becomes a deus ex machina

not that it actually is its just a joke that was made while Tarquin escaped since the end of the comic had no punchline

A deus ex machina is a previously never-mentioned device that rescues the protagonist (hero, lead character, 'good guys') from a deadly situation. So it doesn't apply for a couple of reasons:

1) Tarquin is not the protagonist (hero, lead character, 'good guys'), nor is any character he teleported out with.
2) While never explicitly (specifically, literally) stated that Z had Teleport, he is V's opposite and the only reason V doesn't is the whole barred magic issue.
3) Tarquin could reasonably deduce from know attitudes and choices that Elan's group would accept a surrender, and he has plenty of clerics in his kingdom that could resurrect Nale. Escaping wasn't his only tactical option (though likely his best).
4) The Drow-sign-language is a joke. Based on previous history, I wouldn't be surprised if the Giant has been looking for a way to get a joke in about it since he introduced a drow. Z is perfectly capable of figuring out that if T is running back to him carrying a near-death Nale it's time to go. Heck, T. probably even had time to grab the kobold himself.

So really, the sign language is irrelevant and I have no idea what is surprising about the teleport. If V could teleport the Order would have used the tactic many times themselves, I'm sure.

[FujinAkari]

Originally Posted by Throknor

A deus ex machina is a previously never-mentioned device that rescues the protagonist (hero, lead character, 'good guys') from a deadly situation.

Although I very much agree with your post, I do have to point out that this is an over-simplification.

Deus Ex Machinas do not simply save the protagonist from a deadly situation, they allow the protagonist to overcome some impossible challenge that opens the way to victory where defeat seemed inevitable.

The earmark of a Deus Ex Machina is a story where the hero is truly cornered with no viable options and so the writer has to simply introduce a completely new element which can astoundingly resolve all the loose plot threads and push the story to its final confrontation and resolution. In addition to all the reasons you cite, the Drow Cant and Teleport do not resolve anything, they reset the stage for the next, heightened, conflict. They cannot be a DEM.

Originally Posted by Forikroder

i understand standing behind your words but my english obviously isnt as good as everyone else here and english isnt everyones first language so i think people should be a bit more open minded when reading

i mean was there really any reason to attack me like that instead of jsut taking it as an exageration?

Well, as someone else who does not speak English as their primary language, I have to echo what others have said. Words mean what they mean, and when you make such blanket statements as "Tarquin's has no offensive ability anymore," it is very difficult to read that as anything but a claim that, without his axe, Tarquin's offensive abilities are severely reduced.

I don't read anyone's words as an attack on you, but I do see some very valid challenges to your argument... and that is fair. People have a right to attack your words, which is why they should be chosen with care.

I spend a lot (a lot!) of time formulating my posts and ensuring that the words I choose convey what I am attempting to say. Sometimes I fail, and sometimes I run into a situation where I misuse a word (Kish caught me doing that earlier in this very thread!) but when it happens I can't fault others for my problem communicating.

Ultimately, it falls to me to make sure my words are clear and my position well-defined, it doesn't fall to the rest of the board to struggle through the mire of my half-translated ramblings and interpret what they think I might be attempting* to say.

Also, and I apologize if this may seem a bit of a low blow, but it is a bit hypocritical for you to complain about the difficulties inherent to not speaking English as a primary language while simultaneously posting extremely broken and grammatical quagmires which are agonizing to read for exactly the people you are trying to identify with :P

* - See? This originally said 'willing' which I changed upon rereading my post, even with all the work I do to ensure that I am clear, I constantly choose the wrong words and have to edit :P

[rewinn]

Has anyone seen the Damn Mansion Whores?

They sound like someone Belkar would already have met, or if not, would like to meet ;-)

[gooddragon1]

Don't know if anyone else brought this up but:

Thrown Weapons

Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

Having the throwing enhancement just negates the -4 penalty but doesn't change the action required. He was moving in that panel. Maybe he's got a belt of battle?

[Stella]

Originally Posted by gooddragon1

Don't know if anyone else brought this up but:

Having the throwing enhancement just negates the -4 penalty but doesn't change the action required. He was moving in that panel. Maybe he's got a belt of battle?

Nice spot!
I suppose that within the various and sundry splatbooks that there might be some Feat which allows the 2-hander to be thrown as a standard action. I don't really know, because I stick pretty close to core. Isn't there a class which is specialized to throw stuff? Hulking Hurler or something? So perhaps also a class ability. But that class might require size L if the "Hulking" part is any hint at a class prerequisite. I still don't know because I don't have that book, if I'm even remembering it correctly at all.

[rewinn]

Originally Posted by Stella

Nice spot!
I suppose that within the various and sundry splatbooks that there might be some Feat which allows the 2-hander to be thrown as a standard action....

Perhaps Tarquin was performing some Unnatural Axe ...

Spoiler

... this pun (tm) Jon Kovalic

[Blue1005]

I love OOTS as much as the next, but damn. Some people have way too much time to quote actually rules and fantasize about feats to the extent of cartoon stalker....

[Tanngrisnir]

Originally Posted by Throknor

A deus ex machina is a previously never-mentioned device that rescues the protagonist (hero, lead character, 'good guys') from a deadly situation. So it doesn't apply for a couple of reasons:

I just felt it needed to be pointed out that a Deus Ex Machina is not always something that is never previously mentioned. Going back to ancient greek theatre where the term originated, the Gods who became the Deus Ex Machina of the story would often be mentioned earlier in the play.

[Chris Opperman]

It was so fun to get a comic almost immediately after the last one!

Really looking forward to reading about Belkar. OOTSy goodness.

[Sorator]

Originally Posted by gooddragon1

Having the throwing enhancement just negates the -4 penalty but doesn't change the action required. He was moving in that panel. Maybe he's got a belt of battle?

Possible, but more likely Rich didn't know that about the rules for improvised thrown weapons. (I certainly didn't. Woo for learning!)

Oh, and that is assuming it's a greataxe (two-handed) rather than a battleaxe (one-handed, but can be wielded with two hands if desired).

[Emperordaniel]

If I'm not mistaken, a Diabolus Ex Machina is the villainous equivalent to a Deus Ex Machina - so what Tarquin pulled off should be argued to be or not to be a Diabolus, not a Deus. (Personally, I'm leaning towards "not a DEM".)

Just adding my two copper pieces to the ongoing debate.

[Bulldog Psion]

He also spun and threw Durkon. Throwing heavy objects seems to be starting to be a habit and not just a one-off thing for Tarquin.

[Grey Watcher]

Originally Posted by Emperordaniel

If I'm not mistaken, a Diabolus Ex Machina is the villainous equivalent to a Deus Ex Machina - so what Tarquin pulled off should be argued to be or not to be a Diabolus, not a Deus. (Personally, I'm leaning towards "not a DEM".)

Just adding my two copper pieces to the ongoing debate.

One could argue that "Diabolus Ex Machina" is a modern neologism. For instance, I think few would characterize Medea as heroic (even assuming she's right to feel muderous rage towards her husband, she still murders her own children to get revenge), but it's still Deus Ex Machina when Apollo shows up and rescues her at the end (and even that isn't really an endorsement of her behavior, she's only rescued because they're related).

[Smolder]

Above all else, a DeM is a lazy plot device, possibly the laziest. As a writer, you don't have to know in advance how to solve a problem, you can just write your way out of it. Leaving a Chekhov's Gun around at least hints that you planned out the story in some minimal fashion.

I don't think this applies to this comic. It's more likely that Rich has been waiting for an opportunity to use a drow sign language joke, and planned this long in advance. I will agree that the LG bugging out after only 2 or 3 rounds of combat was abrupt, and vaguely unsatisfying (depending on how far away they went), but I'm pretty sure that the entire combat sequence was well planned in advance, and hence there is nothing that really cheapens the Order's victory (they got XP and loot, and isn't that what life in the OOTSverse is about?).

[pendell]

Originally Posted by Grey Watcher

One could argue that "Diabolus Ex Machina" is a modern neologism. For instance, I think few would characterize Medea as heroic (even assuming she's right to feel muderous rage towards her husband, she still murders her own children to get revenge), but it's still Deus Ex Machina when Apollo shows up and rescues her at the end (and even that isn't really an endorsement of her behavior, she's only rescued because they're related).

Because it's Greek theater, and I don't think Greece in that era had the concept of 'Diobolus' , an equal and opposite force of evil. You had the gods who were .. I don't think they were really evil or good. They were above mortals, like superheroes, with super traits and super flaws. And you had the daemons , nature spirits. But I don't think even Thanatos and Hades were "devils" in the modern sense. The ancient greeks had a fundamentally different mythology and way of viewing the universe. So "Diobolus ex machina" would make no sense in their frame of reference. "Deus" makes sense for them because the Greek gods were not all-powerful all-good beings like Tolkien's Illuvatar. They could be a right nasty lot on their own account without the need for devils.

ETA: I think the best modern match would be to Lovecraft's Old Ones or Pratchett's take on elves. They're not especially evil or good, simply inhuman and look on humans as playthings. You can be a pet. Or you can be prey. Or you can be ignored. Or any of a hundred things. And the choice is not yours.
Respectfully,

Brian P.

[quseio]

im likeing tarquin more and more lol to bad hes a bad guy! to bad elains mom was dumb look how fricking badass tarquinn is.. he clearly got his smarts from mom not dad.

[Alaska Fan]

Originally Posted by lio45

Tarquin is high level, cunning, very experienced, successful. Really, what is so unplausible and unbelievable in his being able to communicate efficiently with his fellow party members while commanding a retreat at the appropriate moment, in the circumstances (smoke clearing, battle not going the right way)...?

If the reader hasn't gotten that Tarquin is supposed to be kickass by now, well... too bad for that reader.

At the risk of over-thinking this, Rich's point is that Tarquin cannot resist showing off. Yes, he's high level, but mostly he gets a charge out of showing just how hot he is. Remember, Roy's very successful trap worked because Tarquin couldn't resist grabbing an arrow that was fired at him. He shares with Nale the weakness of needing to show just how smart, just how experienced and just how clever he is. It's a weakness. Roy successfully exploited it. And likely will again.

[raymundo]

Originally Posted by Alaska Fan

At the risk of over-thinking this, Rich's point is that Tarquin cannot resist showing off. Yes, he's high level, but mostly he gets a charge out of showing just how hot he is. Remember, Roy's very successful trap worked because Tarquin couldn't resist grabbing an arrow that was fired at him. He shares with Nale the weakness of needing to show just how smart, just how experienced and just how clever he is. It's a weakness. Roy successfully exploited it. And likely will again.

Exactly. That is where I draw the line - if Tarquin suddenly stops being a self-absorbed show-off just to throw Roys plans off, then he really is that male-Mary-Sue-equivalent and will lose a metric ton of sympathy from me.

[Sorator]

Originally Posted by Alaska Fan

At the risk of over-thinking this, Rich's point is that Tarquin cannot resist showing off. Yes, he's high level, but mostly he gets a charge out of showing just how hot he is. Remember, Roy's very successful trap worked because Tarquin couldn't resist grabbing an arrow that was fired at him. He shares with Nale the weakness of needing to show just how smart, just how experienced and just how clever he is. It's a weakness. Roy successfully exploited it. And likely will again.

For what it's worth, I don't think it would've mattered if he didn't catch the arrow - if it hit someone instead and stuck in them and then exploded, it would've worked just fine.

[Stella]

Originally Posted by Blue1005

I love OOTS as much as the next, but damn. Some people have way too much time to quote actually rules and fantasize about feats to the extent of cartoon stalker....

When the setting of your story is the rules of a highly published set of source material, you can expect that this comes with the territory.

Were OoTS set in the Star Wars universe, or the Star Trek universe, or the Dune universe, this would evoke similar fan citations from the canon of those settings. Given that the "setting" for D&D 3.5 is primarily a rules framework comprised of literally thousands of pages of rules, things can get far more granular than "What Vader would really have done in situation X" or "Force power Y really can't do that."

It's not stalking, it's a prior (and/or ongoing) familiarity with the setting the author chose to use.

Originally Posted by quseio

to bad elains mom was dumb look how fricking badass tarquinn is.. [Elan] clearly got his smarts from mom not dad.

But Elan also got his dramatic sense from Tarquin. As Tarquin continues to demonstrate.

[FujinAkari]

Originally Posted by Sorator

For what it's worth, I don't think it would've mattered if he didn't catch the arrow - if it hit someone instead and stuck in them and then exploded, it would've worked just fine.

Yeah, but thats the thing...

If Tarquin can catch an arrow, then he can also deflect one (its a pre-req), and if Tarquin HAD simply knocked it aside, it would have shot off down the hall and done nothing.

But this is Tarquin we're talking about... why WOULDN'T he use the flashiest feat he has?

[Finagle]

Originally Posted by FujinAkari

Yeah, but thats the thing...

If Tarquin can catch an arrow, then he can also deflect one (its a pre-req), and if Tarquin HAD simply knocked it aside, it would have shot off down the hall and done nothing.

But this is Tarquin we're talking about... why WOULDN'T he use the flashiest feat he has?

You're overthinking it. Obviously the ambush was going to work regardless of how any LG members reacted to it.

[jere7my]

Originally Posted by Finagle

You're overthinking it. Obviously the ambush was going to work regardless of how any LG members reacted to it.

No, Haley was counting on Tarquin catching the arrow — that's what the title means. If she'd missed, or someone had deflected the arrow, or Tarquin had told everyone to take cover instead of charging forward to catch the arrow, it would have gone off down the hall and made a smoke cloud thirty feet behind the Linear Guild. They were using Tarquin's skills and showboating against him.

[2323mike]

It was a small and crowded corridor. If Tarquin didn't catch the arrow, it would have hit somebody else or a wall, and exploded anyway. It was a foolproof strategy on Order's part.

[Killer Angel]

Originally Posted by FujinAkari

* - See? This originally said 'willing' which I changed upon rereading my post, even with all the work I do to ensure that I am clear, I constantly choose the wrong words and have to edit :P

I'm glad I'm not the only one...

Originally Posted by 2323mike

It was a small and crowded corridor. If Tarquin didn't catch the arrow, it would have hit somebody else or a wall, and exploded anyway. It was a foolproof strategy on Order's part.

The arrow was flying in a straight line. I believe that (assuming a miss) it would have passed the LG's group, losing itself well behind them and exploding out of range to be effective; the "hitting a wall" was not an option.

[2323mike]

Originally Posted by Killer Angel

The arrow was flying in a straight line. I believe that (assuming a miss) it would have passed the LG's group, losing itself well behind them and exploding out of range to be effective; the "hitting a wall" was not an option.

It was.

Haley was hiding in the "left" (from LG point of view) alcove and fired her arrow through the middle of mummy crowd. That means the arrow didn't fly along the corridor's axis, but under certain angle. It would at some point hit the "right" wall of the corridor, the only question being where. If we assume both mummies and LG were walking in the middle of the corridor, the arrow would hit the wall near Malack.

Not that this is such a big deal, though. It's nitpicking at it's finest

[Stella]

To end the nitpicking, in order to use the feat you must be in the state of "would normally be hit with a ranged weapon." Haley hit Tarquin, he used his feat to catch the arrow instead.