Ugh. Fine, sure, it's totally reasonable for Tarquin to know Drow Sign Language, but I really REALLY wish it had even come up as an obscure background joke somewhere before, instead of him saying "Oh by the way I know the exact thing to do to undercut their victory."
Even a Chekhov's Gun is better than a Deus Ex Machina.
C'mon... Tarquin is the foil to Roy that Thog could never be. Thog is just a STR based Berserker. Tarquin is a smart Fighter, probably single classed just as is Roy, and also probably higher level. Roy beat the simpleton Thog by using the cross-class skill of Knowledge:Architecture, FerThor'sSake. Tarquin, OTOH, is an intelligent, charismatic Fighter with a huge pile of non-optimal Feats (and probably skills) based upon his INT and CHA which he uses to excellent effect in a game setting where optimization is quite typically (and frankly, boringly) king.
So count me in as a Tarquin fangirl. I prefer a character who achieves victory via the use of non-traditional Feats and tactics over a single-minded focus on some "char-ops" build that Roy needs to walk off a cliff to defeat (cannot find the "half-ogre, reach plus spiked-chain" comic to cite here, damnit).
PS: I never bought into the theory that Malack would join the OotS. Malack seems much too aligned with Tarquin to betray him in that manner.
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Haley has always been suspicious of Malack and Tarquin. They may not jump to the conclusion that Malack's in cahoots with Nale, but it's reasonable to assume that Tarquin has taken interest in whatever the Order and Guild are after.
While that is one of the possible reasonable assumptions, it does not inherently put Malack in opposition to the Order. So the question remains.
I'm just gonna throw out that tropes are not bad - sometimes, the Deus Ex Machina gets presented as such because there was no reason to explain it earlier in the story. It's not necessarily lazy writing, and I'm willing to give Rich the benefit of the doubt in this case.
One could argue whether they really 'defeated' Tarquin, Malak, Zz'dtri and Quarr, but they'll definitely get xp for Nale and Kilkil.
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Originally Posted by willpell
And Sabine. (Though really, it's a fault of the rules that anyone but Durkon and maybe Haley is entitled to XP for that.)
And Tarquin & Z - in the example linked, the chimera was about to make a tactical retreat, but they were still going to get XP for defeating it. Probably not anything for Malack or Qarr, though.
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Originally Posted by ti'esar
I just want to say that if this isn't the weirdest line of argument I've seen this thread take yet, it's not for lack of trying.
That'd be too bad, because the rule for gaining XP for "overcoming challenges" instead of "killing stuff" is intended to encourage kill-less solutions, isn't it? Not granting XP for Qarr and Malack because they cut them off would undermine this intention.
And the Giant would strike me as a person who, if this actually was a game of D&D, would enforce this. But that's just my point of view, of course
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Ugh. Fine, sure, it's totally reasonable for Tarquin to know Drow Sign Language, but I really REALLY wish it had even come up as an obscure background joke somewhere before, instead of him saying "Oh by the way I know the exact thing to do to undercut their victory."
Even a Chekhov's Gun is better than a Deus Ex Machina.
In real life, he could've as easily conveyed his command with *point, point, point, point*, *waves pointing finger in big circles over his head* (or *flick-splays fingers on both hands*, or whatever).
It's not a Deus Ex Machina. It's a joke.
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And once again we see why wizards are considered so ridiculously overpowered in 3e D&D! All it takes is one spell to completely negate an entire ambush.
Well, first action from any mage on the ambushing side is "dimensional anchor". Unless you want to let them a chance to escape, but even in that case, it's better to let them find a more dangerous way (like flying or running).
The ambushing side don't have any caster able to do so ? It's not well prepared enough.
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Originally Posted by weeping eagle
In real life, he could've as easily conveyed his command with *point, point, point, point*, *waves pointing finger in big circles over his head* (or *flick-splays fingers on both hands*, or whatever).
It's not a Deus Ex Machina. It's a joke.
That or use the ol'good "write on paper what I want to say".
There were a bunch of way for Tarquin to give the drow that order. I doubt him knowing drow sign langage will end up being as critical as most people seem to think.
Oh, and I love how Tarquin determines Nale's consciousness based on his love of his own voice.
After my first reading I though "that sure is anti-climactic, howmany easy escapes are going to prolong this drawn out storyline?"
After the second reading, I realised that I haven't seen where they ended up though. "Out of the frying pan, into the fire" is very much an option here. If they end up somewhere safe, able to regroup/recover then yes, it'll be another boring escape from the LG. But I'll hold off judgement until I've seen the next few comics though :) Can't judge a story-writing decision without seeing at least part of the followup happenings.
Ugh. Fine, sure, it's totally reasonable for Tarquin to know Drow Sign Language, but I really REALLY wish it had even come up as an obscure background joke somewhere before, instead of him saying "Oh by the way I know the exact thing to do to undercut their victory."
Even a Chekhov's Gun is better than a Deus Ex Machina.
C'mon... Tarquin is the foil to Roy that Thog could never be. Thog is just a STR based Berserker. Tarquin is a smart Fighter, probably single classed just as is Roy, and also probably higher level. Roy beat the simpleton Thog by using the cross-class skill of Knowledge:Architecture, FerThor'sSake. Tarquin, OTOH, is an intelligent, charismatic Fighter with a huge pile of non-optimal Feats (and probably skills) based upon his INT and CHA which he uses to excellent effect in a game setting where optimization is quite typically (and frankly, boringly) king.
I just want to say I think these are both excellent points.
I like this comic, but I'm sure a lot of people are going to grumble about Tarquin knowing Drow-cant or whatever its called, despite how rationally its explained :P
*also remembers the 2E days where a bloody drow was all but required in amy gaming group*
Looks like I was slightly off base... while I was right that people would unreasonably grumble about Drow-cant, I really didn't think there would be so many people to demonstrate such a thorough lack of understanding about what Deus Ex Machina means.
This is a bit of a pet peeve of mine... and I've posted this before, but people are getting it nearly CRIMINALLY wrong at this point.
Deus Ex Machina is defined as:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dictionary
any artificial or improbable device resolving the difficulties of a plot.
While typically it is reserved for a device that SOLVES the problems and moves the story into its conclusion, that isn't an inherent part of its definition, so I will be skipping that for now.
1) Drow Cant isn't a device. Deus Ex Machina explicitly refers to a device, some invention or creation abruptly able to undo whatever problems the characters are encountering in order to let them triumph at a point where all hope seemed to be lost.
2) Drow Cant didn't resolve any difficulties for the heroes. The Heroes were ALREADY WINNING. This is probably the greatest and most offensive misuse of the term, in my eyes. Deus Ex Machina has a very explicit and context-specific meaning, but a lot of people seem to start throwing it around blindly any time anything happens which they don't like.
3) Drow Cant didn't even cause anything to happen! It was totally irrelevant. As mentioned, Tarquin had about eight other ways he could have communicated his message, but Rich went with the one that delivered humor. It really says something about the irrationality of the hatred for Tarquin that a strip can be published and, rather than being upset that a Wizard who has never been shown to have Teleport before abruptly has the exact spell needed to get the LG out of a losing battle, people instead complain that the general whose nation borders a Drow kingdom happens to know the Drow language.
*fume*
Sorry... but seriously... if you aren't going to use terms correctly, consider not using them... it only makes your argument look weaker.
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Does it? I know the Empire of Blood borders the *elven* kingdoms, but it doesn't perforce follow that it also borders the Drow territory.
Kingdoms; that's a plural right there. Drow are a subtype of elf, thus it is not unreasonable to assume that their territory is somewhere within the generic area labeled "The Elven Kingdoms".
Kingdoms; that's a plural right there. Drow are a subtype of elf, thus it is not unreasonable to assume that their territory is somewhere within the generic area labeled "The Elven Kingdoms".
Actually, it wouldn't be very reasonable since a) the dark elves usually live underground while surface elves prefer arboreal themes and b) the dark elves usually hate surface elves more than any others.
Maybe she meant every kingdom borders the dark elves' domain by virtue of being on the surface.
This is a bit of a pet peeve of mine... and I've posted this before, but people are getting it nearly CRIMINALLY wrong at this point.
Just to add, a good example from the strip (and V later even used the very term to refer to that event) would be when Xykon's zombie dragon head falls straight on the Xykon Decoy that was about to roast V.
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Originally Posted by factotum
Does it? I know the Empire of Blood borders the *elven* kingdoms, but it doesn't perforce follow that it also borders the Drow territory.
Every nation in the world vertically borders Drow territory.
I am now wondering if there's any young genre savvy half-drow out here. Am I the only one?
So, she'll be a good role playing character in never winter nights 2.
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Again, having a sound explanation for something, by definition, makes it plausible.
It makes it possible, not plausible.
Some old unknown ally suddenly appearing on the battleground and saving T is plausible.
An amulet of teleport being drawn there by a powerful tornado bouncing all the way there along a secret air duct and then falling into T's hands may be "soundly explained", but certainly not plausible.
Just because something can be explained it doesn't automatically make it buyable.
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Which is why I said believable is subjective. You can choose to believe something regardless of the amount of evidence for or against it.
If I find said amount of evidence to be evanescent at best, sure.
Just because something can be explained it doesn't automatically make it buyable.
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Originally Posted by Mantine
Tl;dr What do I care if it's "adequately explained by the comic itself"?
You could give me Xykon blasted to bits by the Enterprise and spend one month's worth of strips to explain how Kirk got there... but that doesn't mean I would buy it.
If, as you have said, a month's worth of explanation in the comic wouldn't be enough for you to "buy" something, then nothing in the OOTSverse is buyable by your definition. Rich is never going to spend a month explaining something, nor would that be entertaining in any way.
He's never surprised. Not even when he's surprised.
He sends fruit baskets to the Drow. Just in case.
He doesn't change his plans, his plans change for him.
He uses escaped slaves to construct one-hundred foot tall birthday messages for his sons.
He appreciates the value of a good spear.
His people don't respect him out of fear, they fear him out of respect.
His plan B has a plan B.
People never return his gifts (well, except for Elan, but that's a special case).
By Jove, I've got it! Taquin IS the most interesting man in the world.
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Edit: Additionally, classic D&D holds that the Drow are a dark sect of elves driven underground by some past conflict, so it does make sense that if the Elven Kingdoms are here, the Drow are going to be here as well. My point remains that it is a bit shortsighted to be surprised that Tarquin knows the language of one of the few groups he -doesn't- control and actually has to keep tabs on!
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"The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan
If, as you have said, a month's worth of explanation in the comic wouldn't be enough for you to "buy" something, then nothing in the OOTSverse is buyable by your definition. Rich is never going to spend a month explaining something, nor would that be entertaining in any way.
Like Sarcasm, Hyperbole relies largely on tone of voice and facial expression and is generally best not employed via a textual medium such as forums :P
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Been thinking a little about this debate about the plausibility of Tarquin's little tricks, and the suspension of disbelief in this comic.
First, to those who feel that Tarquin knowing Drow sign destroys credulity for you, I say, well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I don't think anyone here is saying that you aren't. What some of us who feel like Tarquin's tricks are an addition to this comic as opposed to being a subtraction are saying that we don't find it hard to believe at all. In fact, to me at least, knowing something like Drow Cant is completely in character for Tarquin, based upon what I've seen from him in the past.
Secondly, I would say that this comic has never seemed to have taken itself too seriously. It has, in fact, broken the fourth wall on occasion. So if one is looking for "serious" storytelling, one may be reading the wrong comic.
Also, I would add, if one dislikes the mode by which Rich chooses to tell his most excellent story, why would one continue to read the comic? I would say that one is drawn in by the way Rich spins his tale, so like it or not, he has done his job.
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Re: OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread
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I know the Empire of Blood borders the *elven* kingdoms, but it doesn't perforce follow that it also borders the Drow territory.
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