Fairy Tail II: Second Generation Thread Slayers

[ThiagoMartell]

Originally Posted by Drolyt

I can't recall anything in DBZ or YYH like that.

SSJ is achieved by extreme emotion. The first time is when Goku is overcome by anger and grief when Kuririn died. Vegeta achieves so when frustrated by not achieving so. Gohan had to be trained to be able to let his rage overcome him to become a SSJ.
YYH has Kuwabara recover completely when he sees Yukina. It also has Kuwabara, Hiei and Kurama becoming S class after Yusuke died. In fact, in YYH Kuwabara is genre savvy enough to do this on purpose, faking his death to give Yusuke that extra edge in his fight againts Toguro.

Originally Posted by Drolyt

I don't think it is essential to the genre.

I disagree completely.

Originally Posted by Drolyt

Anyways it actually was the main factor in Gray's fight. Quote Mavis: "sometimes emotion can overcome calculation".

That doesn't mean anything. Grey had a chance of winning. He won. That's perfectly fine.

Originally Posted by Drolyt

It isn't exactly that I don't like emotions having any effect, but I feel that it is both unrealistic and cheapens the story and characters.

I've pointed out, time and time again, how this happens in real life. Emotions are an important part of everything in life. Don't believe me? Hear it from Psychology Today.
A bit more examples of emotions being a key factor in sports.

Spoiler

Jon Jones vs Vitor Belford. Belford grabbed Jones' arm soon into the match. Jones kept struggling, even though it risked his arm breaking. Belford was afraid he would cripple Jones, so he relaxed his hold. Jones escaped and defeated Belford. After the match, Jones showed up to the interview with his arm immobilized. He got really close to a fracture.

Soccer World Cup 1998. Brazil vs France. Brazil had destroyed every team, with one of the best teams in the history of soccer and Ronaldo in his best phase ever. Before the last game, Ronaldo felt ill. He still played, but all of Brazil's players mentioned how much Ronaldo's health issue had shook them. France beat Brazil 3-0, with all brazilian players playing apathetically.

Soccer World Cup 2006.
Zinedine Zidane, already awarded the Golden Ball before the final, had already announced he was going to retire. It was his last match. At the end of the game, Marco Materazzi teased Zidane, throwing racists remarks about Zidane's mother and sister. Zidane headbutted him and got a red card. A shaken France was easily defeated in the penalty shootouts.

A quote by Ayrton Senna:
"On a given day, a given circumstance, you think you have a limit. And you then go for this limit and you touch this limit, and you think, 'Okay, this is the limit.' As soon as you touch this limit, something happens and you suddenly can go a little bit further. With your mind power, your determination, your instinct, and the experience as well, you can fly very high."

Other than that, well... magic is very unrealistic, isn't it?

Originally Posted by Drolyt

It isn't the reliance on emotions alone, but the fact that Fairy Tail essentially always wins. The most infuriating part of the manga for me was when Natsu told Gray off for planning on using Iced Shell, because in Fairy Tail you don't have to make real sacrifices, you just have to believe in your friends and try harder. It cheapened Ur's sacrifice and cheapened the manga, because in real life sometimes there is no way out. In Fairy Tail reality bends over backwards to make sure nothing bad ever happens to the heroes, like in this "emotion overcomes calculation" bullcrap.

Well, no one is pointing a gun to your head and forcing you to read. Bad things happen to Fairy Tail, they just overcome whatever problems they have. That's also a common trope in shounen.

[Kato]

@ Hopeless
I don't see any point to ruin Fairy Tail. I mean, it's not impossible, of course but the poor luck with the events might just be bad luck. Or a bad joke. They could have probably been more efficient to destroy FT if anyone was going for that.
The only slightly probably reasoning might have been to draw out the other members, including Lucy who holds the Golden Keys which are, as we know, essential for the time travel plan.


As for the reason behind the tournament, it's not been stated directly but since... white knight guy explained how they use it to gather magic power and with his time travel plan it makes sense to start it as a way to stop Acnologia who apparently became a worse problem than it was before.

[Drolyt]

Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell

SSJ is achieved by extreme emotion. The first time is when Goku is overcome by anger and grief when Kuririn died. Vegeta achieves so when frustrated by not achieving so. Gohan had to be trained to be able to let his rage overcome him to become a SSJ.
YYH has Kuwabara recover completely when he sees Yukina. It also has Kuwabara, Hiei and Kurama becoming S class after Yusuke died. In fact, in YYH Kuwabara is genre savvy enough to do this on purpose, faking his death to give Yusuke that extra edge in his fight againts Toguro.

Well... you've got me there. It still wasn't used nearly as egregiously as in Fairy Tail. I would also point out that in Yusuke's fight with Toguro, it wasn't that the emotions made Yusuke stronger so much as they helped him overcome his other emotions (fear) that were holding him back. Also, while the original Super Saiyan required a moment of pure rage combined with a pure heart all the subsequent improvements were based on training. There was a lot of training in both those shows, but in Fairy Tail they win basically because they are the main characters.

I disagree completely.

Okay.

That doesn't mean anything. Grey had a chance of winning. He won. That's perfectly fine.

They took a huge risk just to satisfy Grey's ego and then covered it up with nonsense about emotions. I don't see how that is fine.

I've pointed out, time and time again, how this happens in real life. Emotions are an important part of everything in life. Don't believe me? Hear it from Psychology Today.
A bit more examples of emotions being a key factor in sports.

Spoiler

Jon Jones vs Vitor Belford. Belford grabbed Jones' arm soon into the match. Jones kept struggling, even though it risked his arm breaking. Belford was afraid he would cripple Jones, so he relaxed his hold. Jones escaped and defeated Belford. After the match, Jones showed up to the interview with his arm immobilized. He got really close to a fracture.

Soccer World Cup 1998. Brazil vs France. Brazil had destroyed every team, with one of the best teams in the history of soccer and Ronaldo in his best phase ever. Before the last game, Ronaldo felt ill. He still played, but all of Brazil's players mentioned how much Ronaldo's health issue had shook them. France beat Brazil 3-0, with all brazilian players playing apathetically.

Soccer World Cup 2006.
Zinedine Zidane, already awarded the Golden Ball before the final, had already announced he was going to retire. It was his last match. At the end of the game, Marco Materazzi teased Zidane, throwing racists remarks about Zidane's mother and sister. Zidane headbutted him and got a red card. A shaken France was easily defeated in the penalty shootouts.

A quote by Ayrton Senna:
"On a given day, a given circumstance, you think you have a limit. And you then go for this limit and you touch this limit, and you think, 'Okay, this is the limit.' As soon as you touch this limit, something happens and you suddenly can go a little bit further. With your mind power, your determination, your instinct, and the experience as well, you can fly very high."

I should point out that I don't know much about sports, so I'm limited in following your examples. Regardless, I don't think emotions play as large a role as you claim, and I don't see anything other than anecdotal evidence on your side. Even the psychology article has zero references that I could find. Besides, this is ignoring that my problem isn't that emotions have any impact at all, but that they are used as a crutch to destroy all drama.

Other than that, well... magic is very unrealistic, isn't it?

This is a silly response. Magic is the point of the series (one of the points anyways). Of course we expect magic, but we don't expect it to then go and throw away all logic and consistency. Oddly I only ever hear this argument connected to geek interests like manga, in the literary sci-fi and fantasy community it is well accepted that you spell out what is different from the real world and don't change other things at random.

Well, no one is pointing a gun to your head and forcing you to read. Bad things happen to Fairy Tail, they just overcome whatever problems they have. That's also a common trope in shounen.

This is another argument common to geek interests, since geeks seem to be oddly defensive of their interests. Look, I like Fairy Tail. I enjoy reading and have no plans to stop, whether someone points a gun at me or not. I'm just pointing out one problem I have with the series, that isn't an attack on the series itself. I'm also fine with you disagreeing with me, but I'm not sure this discussion is constructive anymore.

[Forum Explorer]

Here's a thought. Grey had poor odds of winning, but were anyone else's odds that much better?

Grey actually managed to figure out Rufus' weakness is, a multi part attack that's too complex to memorize easily.

Who else on the Fairy Tail team could pull out such a multi-part attack?

[Socratov]

Laxus, Erza, possibly Gajeel... they all make combos and use magic mainly for buffs and utility...

[Dusk Eclipse]

I haven't seen Erza change armours and weapons as fast as Gray Ice Makes and I doubt she can improvise like Gray did, so frankly Erza was a worse option unless she was strong enough to completely overwhelm Rufus (which is possible); but maybe with his Forget magic Rufus could unequip her armours.

Gajeel and Luxus I'm not really sure.

[Socratov]

Well, it is knows she is the fastest and forget wouldn't work since the armor is not a magic construct, but actual armor that is magically put on where as ice make is magic given form. I think Erza could have won that fight but that she is needed more elsewhere.

gjeel and laxus are both powerful combatants. laxus is very fast. He practically moves at the speed of lightning. Gajeel is very durable. So much in fact that he can go toe to toe with Natsu (or could at least). He is also physically very strong allowing him to as it were duke it out...

[DiscipleofBob]

Erza I can see. Her specialization in quick change is canon and has been a factor in many of her fights. Unsure of whether Forget would work, but I personally doubt it. I think that Forget probably only works on "Make" magic like Gray's.

Laxus would probably fare better if for no other reason than speed. But I'm guessing he's going be fighting the guy with the black lightning. Still wondering if Sabretooth has another Godslayer with him.

[LaZodiac]

Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse

I haven't seen Erza change armours and weapons as fast as Gray Ice Makes and I doubt she can improvise like Gray did, so frankly Erza was a worse option unless she was strong enough to completely overwhelm Rufus (which is possible); but maybe with his Forget magic Rufus could unequip her armours.

Gajeel and Luxus I'm not really sure.

Ok, ok...if this is a thing that COULD happen, why didn't it? Because I'll be honest, one of the reasons Fairy Tail is a guilty pleasure for me is because I do enjoy the fanservice. And as we all know, the mangaka really, really likes fanservice. So how could this not happen?

Could...could it be he's actually trying to write a good story?

spoilers: no

[DiscipleofBob]

Originally Posted by LaZodiac

Ok, ok...if this is a thing that COULD happen, why didn't it? Because I'll be honest, one of the reasons Fairy Tail is a guilty pleasure for me is because I do enjoy the fanservice. And as we all know, the mangaka really, really likes fanservice. So how could this not happen?

Could...could it be he's actually trying to write a good story?

spoilers: no

Because it'd be more fanservice for Erza to get the designated chick fight with Sabertooth's female member. That and/or she still has to fight the leader of Mermaid Heel.

Designated Chick Fight and all.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I agree with DiscipleofBob, for pure fanservice a Designated Girl fight is better, besides we could even get a melee a trois! And if Rufus unequiped Erza's armour it could have some unfortunate subtext (that fanfiction writers and dousinji drawers would exploit for all it's worth).

[LaZodiac]

Originally Posted by DiscipleofBob

Because it'd be more fanservice for Erza to get the designated chick fight with Sabertooth's female member. That and/or she still has to fight the leader of Mermaid Heel.

Designated Chick Fight and all.

That's the cat girl, right? To be fair, Erza actually has a valid reason to fight her, she wants to protect Jellal/Gerrard/Not Siegfried from her.

[Dusk Eclipse]

No, the Catgirl was Erza's friend from the Tower of Paradise, the Leader of Mermaid Heel is the chick with the katana who beat Sabertooth's Celestial mage.

[ThiagoMartell]

Originally Posted by Drolyt

Well... you've got me there. It still wasn't used nearly as egregiously as in Fairy Tail. I would also point out that in Yusuke's fight with Toguro, it wasn't that the emotions made Yusuke stronger so much as they helped him overcome his other emotions (fear) that were holding him back. Also, while the original Super Saiyan required a moment of pure rage combined with a pure heart all the subsequent improvements were based on training. There was a lot of training in both those shows, but in Fairy Tail they win basically because they are the main characters.

That is a staple of the genre. The main characters win because they are the main characters. Oh, sure, we'll have some explanation. But they will win. The question is when and how.

Originally Posted by Drolyt

They took a huge risk just to satisfy Grey's ego and then covered it up with nonsense about emotions. I don't see how that is fine.

Taking huge risks for personal reasons is also a very common trope in shounen.

Originally Posted by Drolyt

I should point out that I don't know much about sports, so I'm limited in following your examples. Regardless, I don't think emotions play as large a role as you claim, and I don't see anything other than anecdotal evidence on your side. Even the psychology article has zero references that I could find.

Between Psychology Today and Ayrton Senna, I think I have reliable sources. Do you know who Ayrton Senna is? Google it, it will be worth it.

Originally Posted by Drolyt

Besides, this is ignoring that my problem isn't that emotions have any impact at all, but that they are used as a crutch to destroy all drama.

That's an exaggeration if I ever saw one. As mentioned before, drama in shounen is not in "will they win?" it's in "how will they win, when, and will it have consequences?".

Originally Posted by Drolyt

This is a silly response.

And this was quite insulting. Please, I'm keeping my argument polite, try to do the same.

Originally Posted by Drolyt

Magic is the point of the series (one of the points anyways). Of course we expect magic, but we don't expect it to then go and throw away all logic and consistency.

That's not what happened. Emotions being the key to solving issues is quite common in the series. In fact, it not happening would break internal consistency.

Originally Posted by Drolyt

Oddly I only ever hear this argument connected to geek interests like manga, in the literary sci-fi and fantasy community it is well accepted that you spell out what is different from the real world and don't change other things at random.

Then emotions being important should be quite acceptable, since that also happens in the real world. Also, following genre conventions is not random at all. Please don't try to dismiss my argument as being 'geeky', it's also insulting, specially considering my education.

Originally Posted by Drolyt

This is another argument common to geek interests, since geeks seem to be oddly defensive of their interests. Look, I like Fairy Tail. I enjoy reading and have no plans to stop, whether someone points a gun at me or not. I'm just pointing out one problem I have with the series, that isn't an attack on the series itself. I'm also fine with you disagreeing with me, but I'm not sure this discussion is constructive anymore.

Yes, it is an attack. Pointing out a problem is doing what I did - saying I don't like something. Do you remember what you have been saying? You have been claiming that what you don't like is 'bullcrap', 'silly' and 'changing at random'. Now, tell me - isn't that an attack?
The problem is not your critic. The problem is how you present it. If you present it as an attack, well, people will treat it like an attack.

[Hopeless]

Minor point, Sabertooth doesn't have anything like the bond shared by the members of the Fairy Tail guild so arguing why Natsu could beat Sting & Rogue even though they have the same level of emotional commitment in that fight well doesn't quite stand.

True by all rights Natsu shouldn't have stood a chance if those two were as good as they were claimed or had anything like the same bond I mentioned above, but they don't and its likely whatever happened

Spoiler

after Rogue (I think) attacked the Guildmaster is probably going to see them get more powerful as a result or at least whoever lost their Exceed since they can use that loss to empower themselves if Minerva or whatever her name is realises that.

Anyway I'm looking forward to seeing Ezra stepping forth for her challenge alongside Jura, Cana, Archive or whatever his name is and the others... aren't you?

Spoiler

Ezra picks the #1 key to enter the temple of a 100 monsters... just the scene in the manga version makes this very interesting!

[Kato]

Aaaaaaaaaaand, it's up.
And some people will be pretty pissed again.

Spoiler

So, Hiro spells it out: Emotion makes you stronger. In case you didn't get it yet. And maybe Lecter is alive. I think she's lying but we will have to see...
Anyway, Sting is motivated and will kick the Fairies hard to get his friend back.

Meanwhile not-so-evil princess being not so evil is totally unexpected.... (Please tell me that was sarcastic enough)

And we get five new enemies for the rescue squad to take on because we don't have enough battles already. Haha! But in FT those are fun enough so I'll stay tuned for the slaughter of the wolves.

[Silva Stormrage]

Originally Posted by Kato

Aaaaaaaaaaand, it's up.
And some people will be pretty pissed again.

Spoiler

So, Hiro spells it out: Emotion makes you stronger. In case you didn't get it yet. And maybe Lecter is alive. I think she's lying but we will have to see...
Anyway, Sting is motivated and will kick the Fairies hard to get his friend back.

Meanwhile not-so-evil princess being not so evil is totally unexpected.... (Please tell me that was sarcastic enough)

And we get five new enemies for the rescue squad to take on because we don't have enough battles already. Haha! But in FT those are fun enough so I'll stay tuned for the slaughter of the wolves.

Spoiler

I actually didn't mind this chapter so much. Dragonslayers are explicitly told to get stronger with feelings. I think the idea that Sting and Rogue were being subconsciously influenced by the guildmaster is a bit of a poor excuse for their terrible performance against Natsu but at least its a reason. Its better than "Oh and Natsu curbstomps both of them with no effort"

Also I think the Order of the Wolves might stay alive a bit more. It sounds like the kingdom is going to be the villain at least for an arc or two. Right now there is no one in the Kingdom who is a threat to Fairy Tail, so they need to introduce that the kingdom has a shadow force of some kind that was never introduced before.

[LaZodiac]

Random insane theory

Spoiler

When they went through the cracks, they were actually going through a portal to the past or future (caused by the radiant magic of the time portal leaking out into the caves). The Wolves (if they are in the future) are all people from Fairy Tail who survived the Apocolypse Dragon reminding people friendship=/=power and went evil.

I'm calling it here!

[Xondoure]

Spoiler

The Stellar Spirit Mage from Saber Tooth is the Lisana of that other dimension. Other than that, not a whole lot in this chapter. Do you think Lecter is really alive? Or is she messing with him to boost their chances?

[lord_khaine]

That is a staple of the genre. The main characters win because they are the main characters. Oh, sure, we'll have some explanation. But they will win. The question is when and how.

And thats why i considder it a mark of the very best, when its not the case and they actualy lose in an important way once in a while.

Taking huge risks for personal reasons is also a very common trope in shounen.

Doesnt make it better, and its usualy personal risks then, in this case its the entire guild who are forced to take the risk alongside Grey.

That's not what happened. Emotions being the key to solving issues is quite common in the series. In fact, it not happening would break internal consistency.

It wasnt really before the timeskip, back then the keywords were determination friendship, and its what got me started on the serie.
Now the focus is quickly turning me away from it again.

Anyway I'm looking forward to seeing Ezra stepping forth for her challenge alongside Jura, Cana, Archive or whatever his name is and the others... aren't you?

Not at all, Natsu stomping 2 DS's killed drama, and Grey then stomping Rufus due to "emotions" threw the body into the river.
( it really doesnt make anything better that the "icemage" win an unlikely fight though "emotions", i would have a much easier time accepting Grey's victory if it had come though cold calculating and sacrifice, like in his fight with Urtear).

So, Hiro spells it out: Emotion makes you stronger. In case you didn't get it yet. And maybe Lecter is alive. I think she's lying but we will have to see...
Anyway, Sting is motivated and will kick the Fairies hard to get his friend back.

Yeah, like it wasnt bad enough in the earlier chapters, still if she is lying it will give me a bit interest back, and if ST im going to love it.

I actually didn't mind this chapter so much. Dragonslayers are explicitly told to get stronger with feelings. I think the idea that Sting and Rogue were being subconsciously influenced by the guildmaster is a bit of a poor excuse for their terrible performance against Natsu but at least its a reason. Its better than "Oh and Natsu curbstomps both of them with no effort"

Yeah, its a dumb explanation, but at least its better than no explanation at all, it seems Hiro is working hard to un-worf ST, though Rufus losing like that kinda ruins it.

Also I think the Order of the Wolves might stay alive a bit more. It sounds like the kingdom is going to be the villain at least for an arc or two. Right now there is no one in the Kingdom who is a threat to Fairy Tail, so they need to introduce that the kingdom has a shadow force of some kind that was never introduced before.

Totaly agree on this, capturing Mirajane's team like that was kinda impressive, but if the kingdom only has regular soldiers it will lose in a war against the weapons of mass destruction that FT posses (aka the S-ranks).

Still, at least the new chapter managet to make me a little bit interested in the plot, since im now wondering if the White Knight is suposed to be a good guy ?

edit.

The Stellar Spirit Mage from Saber Tooth is the Lisana of that other dimension. Other than that, not a whole lot in this chapter. Do you think Lecter is really alive? Or is she messing with him to boost their chances?

She can hardly be a person from that other dimension where noone is able to use magic personaly, seing as she is a stellar spirit mage.
I have no idea about what the comment was about, but it felt kinda random, and i suspect it of being a translation error of some sort.

[LaZodiac]

If she's not from the "magic is tools" world, she's from the future somehow. That's my guess. I also just...you know, THOUGHT SHE WAS LESIANA, not her sister or something.

[Drolyt]

Originally Posted by lord_khaine

She can hardly be a person from that other dimension where noone is able to use magic personaly, seing as she is a stellar spirit mage..

Unless stellar ppirit mages don't need intrinsic magic. Lucy does, but we haven't seen any proof that they absolutely need to.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Theory:

Spoiler

Lecter is dead. The old master would probably know his daughter's magic enough to detect her interference. Minerva needed to keep Sting (and possibly Rogue) in line and blackmailing him with the "return" of his friend is the only way she could do that based on the circumstances.

She could have returned Lecter there and then, proving herself really different from her father and earning Sting's gratitude. But she chose to be a jerk about it. Maybe it comes naturally to her family, or she believed that Sting would leave once he got Lecter, or that he wouldn't fight as hard if Lecter was safe (this one is supported by her words), or Lecter is dead.

Losing the two dragon slayers now would probably kill Sabretooth's chances in the tournament. Whether Lecter is alive or not, Minerva seems like the sort who'll keep him where he is so that Sting will keep doing what she says.

Or is that too cynical for Fairy Tail?

[Forum Explorer]

Alright I think Lector is dead and she's just stringing him along to get him to fight harder.

Also I'm glad to see that ST are starting to fight emotionally and will hopefully manage to remain FT rivals.

[LaZodiac]

Originally Posted by Haruspex_Pariah

Theory:

Spoiler

Lecter is dead. The old master would probably know his daughter's magic enough to detect her interference. Minerva needed to keep Sting (and possibly Rogue) in line and blackmailing him with the "return" of his friend is the only way she could do that based on the circumstances.

She could have returned Lecter there and then, proving herself really different from her father and earning Sting's gratitude. But she chose to be a jerk about it. Maybe it comes naturally to her family, or she believed that Sting would leave once he got Lecter, or that he wouldn't fight as hard if Lecter was safe (this one is supported by her words), or Lecter is dead.

Losing the two dragon slayers now would probably kill Sabretooth's chances in the tournament. Whether Lecter is alive or not, Minerva seems like the sort who'll keep him where he is so that Sting will keep doing what she says.

Or is that too cynical for Fairy Tail?

Believe it or not this is actually....pretty damn fitting for Hiro's writing style. Throw in a scene where Minerva's cloths get ripped off and we've basically had the entire last half of Rave Master, right there.

Also, wheter Lecter is alive or dead, it will serve as Sting's motivation to regain true friendship power.

[Kato]

I never read Rave Master (guess I should) but for FT it feels a bit too cynical... It's not impossible but I think from the story mood perspective it's more likely he's alive. I'm not putting any money on it, though.


About Lisanna's doppelganger... I really don't know. Maybe Hiro just wanted to make some stupid joke or he used her hairstyle and less-curvy body forgetting he had already used it for Lisanna and needed to rectify it somehow. Or he wanted to ruin any possible romantic moment that might have been there between Lucy and Natsu by mentioning Lisanna.
Anyway, I'm not in favor of yet another Lisanna.


Also: Okay guys, if Hiro spells it out but if you have to figure out that emotions power your magic it's bad?
And I still don't feel like this is that much true for Rufus vs gray. He didn't win by power, he outsmarted him. Not on too high a level but still.

[Hopeless]

I just had a rather wild thought...

Spoiler

Lisanna's double from the Exceed world didn't return now did she? What if this is her double and was reanimated when that adventure ended and magic was returned?

Regarding Minerva

Spoiler

Didn't expect to be proved right about that!

[lord_khaine]

Unless stellar spirit mages don't need intrinsic magic. Lucy does, but we haven't seen any proof that they absolutely need to.

Following that line of argument we could argue that no type of magic actualy does that, since just because every other mage seen so far is following that rule, then it doesnt mean the rest of them are going to...

Also, i would argue that at that point it stops being celestrial spirit magic, and starts being "asking your celestrial spirit friend for a helping hand"

Or is that too cynical for Fairy Tail?

I certainly pray to god thats true, since it would return some much needet dept to the serie.

Also I'm glad to see that ST are starting to fight emotionally and will hopefully manage to remain FT rivals.

And my hatred for this being nececary knowns no bound

About Lisanna's doppelganger... I really don't know. Maybe Hiro just wanted to make some stupid joke or he used her hairstyle and less-curvy body forgetting he had already used it for Lisanna and needed to rectify it somehow. Or he wanted to ruin any possible romantic moment that might have been there between Lucy and Natsu by mentioning Lisanna.
Anyway, I'm not in favor of yet another Lisanna.

Actualy, after thinking a bit about it, i have come to the belief it was just Mirajane engaging in a bit of Ship-to-ship Combat, attempting to sink the SS Natsulucy on behaff of her sister.

Also: Okay guys, if Hiro spells it out but if you have to figure out that emotions power your magic it's bad?
And I still don't feel like this is that much true for Rufus vs gray. He didn't win by power, he outsmarted him. Not on too high a level but still.

I have trouble understanding that first sentence, i do belive its a bit fragmentet.

But anyway, Grey didnt outsmart Rufus, he defeated him by cranking his creation speed up to a point where Rufus could not keep up with him, thats just overpowering your oppponent, and it annoy me so greatly because i have seen Hiro do so much better, like in Grey's fight against Urtear, where his way of overcomming what was meant to be a counter towards creation magic were both insightfull and badass.

Lisanna's double from the Exceed world didn't return now did she? What if this is her double and was reanimated when that adventure ended and magic was returned?

I think you are putting to much weight into a random comment from Mirajane

[ThiagoMartell]

Originally Posted by lord_khaine

I certainly pray to god thats true, since it would return some much needet dept to the serie.

Because grimdark is so, so DEEP.

Spoiler

Fairy Tail is not dark. It's upbeat, hopeful and happy. If it has to become darker and edgier to be deep, I hope it stays shallow forever.
"We thought that by making your world more violent, we would make it more "realistic", more "adult". God help us if that's what it means."
- Grant Morrison

[Drolyt]

Originally Posted by lord_khaine

Following that line of argument we could argue that no type of magic actualy does that, since just because every other mage seen so far is following that rule, then it doesnt mean the rest of them are going to...

Also, i would argue that at that point it stops being celestrial spirit magic, and starts being "asking your celestrial spirit friend for a helping hand"

I see your point, but isn't most of what Lucy does just "asking her celestial spirit friends for a helping hand"? I mean, we know that you can use some types of magic without having internal magic, and celestial spirit magic just seems like a good candidate to me since it is largely external.