Fairy Tail II: Second Generation Thread Slayers

[Spacewolf]

Not really sure if the emotional issue really comes up here it was just good tactics by grey, not exactly suprising flames didn't work either considering who his sparing partner is.

Seemed to be a reasonably logical and fair victory

[Dusk Eclipse]

People are getting hung up on Mavis' comment of "Sometimes emotion can overcome calculations".

[LaZodiac]

The reason why I'm so hung up on "emotions beat calculations" thing is because one of my absolute favorite fights in the series was Gildartz vs Natsu. Natsu runs face first into him, using his emotion fueled power to try and defeat Gildartz.

And he fails, so hard that Natsu strait up admits defeat. Because Gildartz is just that powerful. And I wish the series was more like that. Emotions are all well and good, but when a difference of power exists, the person who is stronger is going to win.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The thing is that against Gildartsz Natsu had NO CHANCE at all, I mean Gildartz survived a solo battle against Acknowliga, an enemy so powerful that even the strongest members in the guild (including the current master) couldn't even touch.

On the other hand Rufus and Gray were sufficiently evenly matched that the power of emotion gave the boost needed. Even Mavis acknowledges Gray had a chance against him.

In short, Emotion in fairy tail makes something possible a reality; but it won't make something impossible possible.

[ThiagoMartell]

Originally Posted by LaZodiac

The reason why I'm so hung up on "emotions beat calculations" thing is because one of my absolute favorite fights in the series was Gildartz vs Natsu. Natsu runs face first into him, using his emotion fueled power to try and defeat Gildartz.

And he fails, so hard that Natsu strait up admits defeat. Because Gildartz is just that powerful. And I wish the series was more like that. Emotions are all well and good, but when a difference of power exists, the person who is stronger is going to win.

It sometimes is. Emotions help you defeat people that are more powerful - they give you an extra edge. Sometimes, however, the gap is just that big. Which has been a staple of shounen since forever and FT uses it quite well.

[DiscipleofBob]

What's also important is to acknowledge that it wasn't that Gray was certain to lose by calculations alone. It's just that, unlike the rest of the battles (so far), Mavis couldn't accurately predict the outcome of a battle between Gray and Rufus, so she had to have faith in Gray's abilities. It wasn't necessarily that emotions beat calculations, despite the quote, it was that sometimes emotions can be the deciding factor in calculations.

[Drolyt]

The main problem with the whole "my emotions will let me beat someone stronger than me" is that it just doesn't work that way in real life, so why should it work in fiction?

Originally Posted by DiscipleofBob

What's also important is to acknowledge that it wasn't that Gray was certain to lose by calculations alone. It's just that, unlike the rest of the battles (so far), Mavis couldn't accurately predict the outcome of a battle between Gray and Rufus, so she had to have faith in Gray's abilities. It wasn't necessarily that emotions beat calculations, despite the quote, it was that sometimes emotions can be the deciding factor in calculations.

Which is nonsense. Unless Mavis' calculations were simply wrong letting Gray fight Rufus was simply stupid.

[DiscipleofBob]

Originally Posted by Drolyt

The main problem with the whole "my emotions will let me beat someone stronger than me" is that it just doesn't work that way in real life, so why should it work in fiction?

Because it's not real life? It's fiction? Magic doesn't work in real life either.

Which is nonsense. Unless Mavis' calculations were simply wrong letting Gray fight Rufus was simply stupid.

Results show otherwise.

[Forum Explorer]

Originally Posted by Drolyt

The main problem with the whole "my emotions will let me beat someone stronger than me" is that it just doesn't work that way in real life, so why should it work in fiction?

Which is nonsense. Unless Mavis' calculations were simply wrong letting Gray fight Rufus was simply stupid.

Yes it does. Our max strength is a lot larger then what we can normally access and using that max strength is usually in response to emotion. Or even just being filled with rage which gives you more energy and allows you to ignore pain then the guy who doesn't care.


Her calculations were likely something like Grey has a 20% chance of beating Rufus. Therefore that fight isn't favorable.

[Xondoure]

Originally Posted by Drolyt

The main problem with the whole "my emotions will let me beat someone stronger than me" is that it just doesn't work that way in real life, so why should it work in fiction?

Which is nonsense. Unless Mavis' calculations were simply wrong letting Gray fight Rufus was simply stupid.

There are stories of mothers who can lift trees off of their babies. Emotion taps into adrenaline, and adrenaline does crazy things.

[Kato]

Originally Posted by Drolyt

The main problem with the whole "my emotions will let me beat someone stronger than me" is that it just doesn't work that way in real life, so why should it work in fiction?

Originally Posted by DiscipleofBob

Because it's not real life? It's fiction? Magic doesn't work in real life either.

Thank you. And yeah, the whole adrenaline stories are true as well, but the answer is simple as that: Something that doesn't work in real life is legit to work in fiction. This is an anime about mages who fight dragons and travel to different dimensions with women who have breasts who are obviously weightless.
And you complain about the power of friendship?

Originally Posted by Drolyt

I agree somewhat, the battles have become somewhat boring because of that. And Rufus had such a cool power too.

Hm... I'll agree I could live with battles taking more than one chapter. Not too long but some build up. But Gray won with his wits, not with PoF here so I feel it was better than a few other battles we saw recently.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Originally Posted by Forum Explorer

Yes it does. Our max strength is a lot larger then what we can normally access and using that max strength is usually in response to emotion. Or even just being filled with rage which gives you more energy and allows you to ignore pain then the guy who doesn't care.


Her calculations were likely something like Grey has a 20% chance of beating Rufus. Therefore that fight isn't favorable.

There isn't any indication that Gray's chances where so low, at most we can assume they were less than 100%

[lord_khaine]

yes pertaining to the mostpowerful of the guild type of things, no on killing the entire potential for drama. natsu did that. he had beef with the guild. he went all-out. natsu is currently not fighting in the tounament. -> drama back in, if FT doesn't win something might happen to Lucy. Plus I want to know how strong Gajeel has become.


All in all, I thought is was a neat chapter. concise, to the point and kept a good pacing. I'm curious how the other FT's are going to curbstomp.

You are sitting on the abused corpse of drama, and cant understand why people considder it dead?

Which is nonsense. Unless Mavis' calculations were simply wrong letting Gray fight Rufus was simply stupid.

I agree on this, Maevis more or less gambled the guilds chance of victory on a chance that was less than 50%, just because of Grey's woundet pride.

Because it's not real life? It's fiction? Magic doesn't work in real life either.

But most other rules of the real world, like gravity or convervation of momentium seems to apply, why shouldnt we expect the same of this one?

Results show otherwise.

Just because they got really lucky doesnt mean it was a smart thing to do.

Yes it does. Our max strength is a lot larger then what we can normally access and using that max strength is usually in response to emotion. Or even just being filled with rage which gives you more energy and allows you to ignore pain then the guy who doesn't care.

Just being in a fight will cover the adrenaline part, there is no reason to also lose your head in the process.

And i really think people in here have been reading to much manga, in the real world, when you lose your head you usualy lose the battle soon after.
It is not because i have that much practical experience on the matter, but i do have some, from both real life and amateur tournaments.

Her calculations were likely something like Grey has a 20% chance of beating Rufus. Therefore that fight isn't favorable.

And you dont think it was stupid of a person with the nickname "tactican" to gamble that much on a 20% chance?

Thank you. And yeah, the whole adrenaline stories are true as well, but the answer is simple as that: Something that doesn't work in real life is legit to work in fiction. This is an anime about mages who fight dragons and travel to different dimensions with women who have breasts who are obviously weightless.
And you complain about the power of friendship?

I mostly complain about it because i feel it has been abused to much, its one thing when its the thing that allows the hero to push his broken body into a final burst of action that desides the outcome, the best example i can find of this done right is proberly from OP, with Luffy's fight against Rob Lucci.

On the other hand, when its used to explain why the hero can walk up to 2 opponents who had him outclassed, and them stomp them into the ground, then it becomes retardet

There isn't any indication that Gray's chances where so low, at most we can assume they were less than 100%

From Maevis comment it seemed clear they were under 50%.

[Hopeless]

Regarding Natsu vs the Sabertooth dragonslayers... they might be considered that powerful but please remember exactly how well would those two have fared against the kind of opposition Natsu picks fights with and I don't mean just the ones he loses outright but those that by all rights he should have lost but won.

Would either of those two have survived taking on Jellal for example?
How about Hades or Purehito?
I don't think so, yes they had that seven year advance but even then it wouldn't have made them that much more powerful since for those seven years Fairy Tail didn't have any dragonslayers to match against them even with the other guilds to really be able to judge just how strong they're supposed to be.
Would they have stood a chance against Laxus for example?

As for Gray vs Rufus well Rufus did give away that bit about memorizing three magicks and I figure Gray assumed to up the ante as he pulled out his usual tricks and do his imitate Natsu's talent for destroying the area around them!

Now I really am looking forard to them animating this!

[ThiagoMartell]

Originally Posted by Drolyt

The main problem with the whole "my emotions will let me beat someone stronger than me" is that it just doesn't work that way in real life, so why should it work in fiction?

Except when it does.
This happens all the time in sports. Weaker team beats stronger team just because they wanted it more.
Brazilian Soccer Championship, 2009: Fluminense had lost to basically everyone. With 9 games left, there was a 99% probability Fluminense would fall to the 2nd division. The players got together and declared: "we will not lose anymore".
Those last 9 games? They had to face, among others, the 4 top teams in the championship. They won. Those players, with nothing but will behind them, not only achieved something that only had 1% chance of happening, they actually altered the championship completely, because those points the top 4 teams lost allowed the number 5 team to become the champion!
Fluminense kept the same game plan, the same coach and the same players. What changed was the player's attitude, and that was more than enough.
Fluminense is known, since then, as the warrior team. With 5 games to go, they have a 98% chance of winning this year's Brasileirão.

Another example: Mexico winning the soccer gold medal with a team that's mostly nonprofessional, defeating Brazil in the finals, with a team that included players such as Hulk (one of the most expensive players in the world) and Neymar (considered unsellable by his team and considered by and large as good as Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo). Neymar's comments at the end of the game? "They wanted it more than us."

[Drolyt]

Originally Posted by DiscipleofBob

Because it's not real life? It's fiction? Magic doesn't work in real life either.

"It's fiction" is not an excuse for everything stupid a story does. There is a good reason that magic exists in Fairy Tail, that is a large part of the story, but in other respects we expect the rules to be the same. If we are to regard the struggles of the characters in Fairy Tail (or any other manga) as meaningful or inspiring or even entertaining then the conclusion needs to be based on something more than "well I just wanted it more", which is what Gray's bull**** reasoning boils down to. In real life hard work and luck (I'm including things like natural talent in luck) are the only routes to success, "wanting it more" or "believing in yourself" isn't worth a pile of dog **** and when it is used like that in a story it basically destroys all meaning and suspense.

Originally Posted by Forum Explorer

Yes it does. Our max strength is a lot larger then what we can normally access and using that max strength is usually in response to emotion. Or even just being filled with rage which gives you more energy and allows you to ignore pain then the guy who doesn't care.

Only kind of true. Adrenaline and other chemicals can, in an emergency, create physiological changes that make your muscles somewhat more effective. This is not superhuman strength, and as many people who have gotten their ass kicked will tell you doesn't grant you assurance of defeating a bigger, stronger, or more skilled enemy. Besides that the biggest problem is that those physiological reactions are beyond our conscious control and typically are triggered by fear and similar emotions, not just any old emotion. It is the body's reaction in an emergency, and can actually damage your body.

Originally Posted by Xondoure

There are stories of mothers who can lift trees off of their babies. Emotion taps into adrenaline, and adrenaline does crazy things.

Which are all anecdotal. Besides, depending on how the tree was lying the mother might of been acting as a lever.

Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell

Except when it does.
This happens all the time in sports. Weaker team beats stronger team just because they wanted it more.
Brazilian Soccer Championship, 2009: Fluminense had lost to basically everyone. With 9 games left, there was a 99% probability Fluminense would fall to the 2nd division. The players got together and declared: "we will not lose anymore".
Those last 9 games? They had to face, among others, the 4 top teams in the championship. They won. Those players, with nothing but will behind them, not only achieved something that only had 1% chance of happening, they actually altered the championship completely, because those points the top 4 teams lost allowed the number 5 team to become the champion!
Fluminense kept the same game plan, the same coach and the same players. What changed was the player's attitude, and that was more than enough.
Fluminense is known, since then, as the warrior team. With 5 games to go, they have a 98% chance of winning this year's Brasileirão.

Another example: Mexico winning the soccer gold medal with a team that's mostly nonprofessional, defeating Brazil in the finals, with a team that included players such as Hulk (one of the most expensive players in the world) and Neymar (considered unsellable by his team and considered by and large as good as Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo). Neymar's comments at the end of the game? "They wanted it more than us."

Okay, do you honestly think those players weren't any good? A lot of factors (some quite bizarre) go into who wins a sports match, but do you think the only (or even main) thing that mattered is that they wanted it more? I'd give more credit to the extensive training they obviously undertook.

[Xondoure]

Originally Posted by Drolyt

"It's fiction" is not an excuse for everything stupid a story does. There is a good reason that magic exists in Fairy Tail, that is a large part of the story, but in other respects we expect the rules to be the same. If we are to regard the struggles of the characters in Fairy Tail (or any other manga) as meaningful or inspiring or even entertaining then the conclusion needs to be based on something more than "well I just wanted it more", which is what Gray's bull**** reasoning boils down to. In real life hard work and luck (I'm including things like natural talent in luck) are the only routes to success, "wanting it more" or "believing in yourself" isn't worth a pile of dog **** and when it is used like that in a story it basically destroys all meaning and suspense.

Only kind of true. Adrenaline and other chemicals can, in an emergency, create physiological changes that make your muscles somewhat more effective. This is not superhuman strength, and as many people who have gotten their ass kicked will tell you doesn't grant you assurance of defeating a bigger, stronger, or more skilled enemy. Besides that the biggest problem is that those physiological reactions are beyond our conscious control and typically are triggered by fear and similar emotions, not just any old emotion. It is the body's reaction in an emergency, and can actually damage your body.

Which are all anecdotal. Besides, depending on how the tree was lying the mother might of been acting as a lever.

Okay, do you honestly think those players weren't any good? A lot of factors (some quite bizarre) go into who wins a sports match, but do you think the only (or even main) thing that mattered is that they wanted it more? I'd give more credit to the extensive training they obviously undertook.

First off, wanting it more sure as hell pays off in job or college applications. Secondly, sure they were well trained, but if you are legitimately fighting harder than the other team because you want it that much more, than your emotions are giving you an edge.

Unless you're saying Gray isn't well trained, or smart enough to come up with good tactics. Mavis didn't say she thought Gray would lose, just that the fight was uncertain. Gray's determination made that into a victory. Which is very plausible. You don't find this matches to your experiences? Tough, sometimes reality is unrealistic.

[Forum Explorer]

Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse

There isn't any indication that Gray's chances where so low, at most we can assume they were less than 100%

She said the odds were bad so I'd assume less then 50%

Originally Posted by Drolyt

Only kind of true. Adrenaline and other chemicals can, in an emergency, create physiological changes that make your muscles somewhat more effective. This is not superhuman strength, and as many people who have gotten their ass kicked will tell you doesn't grant you assurance of defeating a bigger, stronger, or more skilled enemy. Besides that the biggest problem is that those physiological reactions are beyond our conscious control and typically are triggered by fear and similar emotions, not just any old emotion. It is the body's reaction in an emergency, and can actually damage your body.

Sure, but it does make you stronger. And people can pull off some really crazy stuff with it.

And yeah most of the time it is uncontrolled through extreme emotion. Though even a smaller amount of emotion can have a significant effect on the abuse you can take. I know when I'm scared I can run much further and faster then normal, or if I'm just having a great time lets me ignore muscle and physical pain.

I think the biggest problem with Fairy Tail right now is that it is only working for Fairy Tail. Doesn't Sabertooth want to win and badly?

[Socratov]

They have won for 7 years now logically they are a bunch of strong, arrogant conceited bastards... in the laws of drama they deserve to lose...

[Hopeless]

Just been watching the latest anime episode and I was wondering if someone could answer the following question which is spoilered on grounds that I don't want to ruin the episode for anyone watching it for the first time.

Spoiler

When they ran those tournaments did they deliberately choose challenges that Fairy Tail itself would be the least likely to win?

The gun experts don't compete and they have a shooting competition, the runner doesn't compete and they have a running competition, so was that point ever raised when the manga version of this was released?

[ThiagoMartell]

Originally Posted by Drolyt

Okay, do you honestly think those players weren't any good? A lot of factors (some quite bizarre) go into who wins a sports match, but do you think the only (or even main) thing that mattered is that they wanted it more? I'd give more credit to the extensive training they obviously undertook.

Do you honestly think Grey isn't any good?
No one is saying emotions are the main aspect of winning a fight. It wasn't in the chapter we're talking about, it wasn't in the games. It is one of many factors and it can be important enough to make a weaker team/character win. And "intensive training" happens all the time in soccer, man. In the brazilian championship there is not even time to change training methods (1-2 games a week). What you don't seem to notice is that no one (not even Mavis) is saying "emotions trump everything else". It's just that emotions can be that extra something that might make you win. You know, like it happens in every shounen manga about fighting, ever.

Drolyt, it looks you just don't like emotions affecting the outcome of events, but they do so in real life (that's why every professional sports team has psychologists, that's also why Adriano The Emperor left Europe - he was depressed and had lost the joy in playing soccer) and that happening is a staple of the shounen genre, one of it's main tropes. If you don't like that kind of thing, well, then you're reading the wrong genre, because that is going to keep happening.

[Kato]

Originally Posted by Hopeless

Spoiler

When they ran those tournaments did they deliberately choose challenges that Fairy Tail itself would be the least likely to win?

The gun experts don't compete and they have a shooting competition, the runner doesn't compete and they have a running competition, so was that point ever raised when the manga version of this was released?

I'm pretty sure that's just bad luck. I can't recall it ever being mentioned.


Speaking of the anime, it's good to be back on track though with today's episode it seemed kind of weird how the first three(?) scenes were put together. Like the scene back at the guild didn't happen when they were in the capital at last. U think the scene at the guild wasn't in the manga, either.

But apart from that... everything is good again. Weird hijinks with Erza (and Erza taking a bath and "thinking of Jellal" just when Pegasus is interrupting here), Juvia is still cute and due to the filler the Lyon/Juvia thing doesn't come entirely out of nowhere. And I liked Lucy's short image spot about thug Wendy

[Hopeless]

Originally Posted by Kato

I'm pretty sure that's just bad luck. I can't recall it ever being mentioned.

Speaking of the anime, it's good to be back on track though with today's episode it seemed kind of weird how the first three(?) scenes were put together. Like the scene back at the guild didn't happen when they were in the capital at last. U think the scene at the guild wasn't in the manga, either.

But apart from that... everything is good again. Weird hijinks with Erza (and Erza taking a bath and "thinking of Jellal" just when Pegasus is interrupting here), Juvia is still cute and due to the filler the Lyon/Juvia thing doesn't come entirely out of nowhere. And I liked Lucy's short image spot about thug Wendy

I liked that bit too!

[Drolyt]

Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell

Do you honestly think Grey isn't any good?
No one is saying emotions are the main aspect of winning a fight. It wasn't in the chapter we're talking about, it wasn't in the games. It is one of many factors and it can be important enough to make a weaker team/character win. And "intensive training" happens all the time in soccer, man. In the brazilian championship there is not even time to change training methods (1-2 games a week). What you don't seem to notice is that no one (not even Mavis) is saying "emotions trump everything else". It's just that emotions can be that extra something that might make you win. You know, like it happens in every shounen manga about fighting, ever.

I can't recall anything in DBZ or YYH like that. I don't think it is essential to the genre. Anyways it actually was the main factor in Gray's fight. Quote Mavis: "sometimes emotion can overcome calculation".

Drolyt, it looks you just don't like emotions affecting the outcome of events, but they do so in real life (that's why every professional sports team has psychologists, that's also why Adriano The Emperor left Europe - he was depressed and had lost the joy in playing soccer) and that happening is a staple of the shounen genre, one of it's main tropes. If you don't like that kind of thing, well, then you're reading the wrong genre, because that is going to keep happening.

It isn't exactly that I don't like emotions having any effect, but I feel that it is both unrealistic and cheapens the story and characters. It isn't the reliance on emotions alone, but the fact that Fairy Tail essentially always wins. The most infuriating part of the manga for me was when Natsu told Gray off for planning on using Iced Shell, because in Fairy Tail you don't have to make real sacrifices, you just have to believe in your friends and try harder. It cheapened Ur's sacrifice and cheapened the manga, because in real life sometimes there is no way out. In Fairy Tail reality bends over backwards to make sure nothing bad ever happens to the heroes, like in this "emotion overcomes calculation" bullcrap.

[Xondoure]

But emotions didn't overcome calculations. They were factored into them.

[Silva Stormrage]

Originally Posted by Drolyt

It isn't exactly that I don't like emotions having any effect, but I feel that it is both unrealistic and cheapens the story and characters. It isn't the reliance on emotions alone, but the fact that Fairy Tail essentially always wins. The most infuriating part of the manga for me was when Natsu told Gray off for planning on using Iced Shell, because in Fairy Tail you don't have to make real sacrifices, you just have to believe in your friends and try harder. It cheapened Ur's sacrifice and cheapened the manga, because in real life sometimes there is no way out. In Fairy Tail reality bends over backwards to make sure nothing bad ever happens to the heroes, like in this "emotion overcomes calculation" bullcrap.

I don't really feel like dealing with the whole emotion argument. However, I will note that something very bad to the heroes will happen relatively soon. I don't see that future version of Levy crying horribly over some temporary damage.

[Drolyt]

Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage

I don't really feel like dealing with the whole emotion argument. However, I will note that something very bad to the heroes will happen relatively soon. I don't see that future version of Levy crying horribly over some temporary damage.

I'd bet half my lifespan that by the end of the arc they'll have altered the timeline and everyone will be just fine.

[Anteros]

I agree that the story lacks tension at this point...but c'mon. Friendship, emotions, and bonds helping you overcome an enemy you couldn't normally beat is basically the staple of every single fight in the entire manga. It's basically the entire point of Fairy Tail. That said...I would like to see the main cast get beat down soon. Natsu, Erza, Gray, and Laxus all basically seem invincible at this point. Something needs to knock them off their pedestal if we want any tension in the story at all. I would include Gildartz in that list too...but honestly he hasn't really had enough screen time to effect the story significantly anyway.

More annoying to me is the firsts "tactics" leading up to this. Unless she's using some type of divination magic there's just no way she could know the things she does and have it all planned to such detail. It's a bit stretching on the suspension of disbelief for me.

[lord_khaine]

I'd bet half my lifespan that by the end of the arc they'll have altered the timeline and everyone will be just fine.

Dont be a chicken, with such low odds you should bet at least 3/4

I think the biggest problem with Fairy Tail right now is that it is only working for Fairy Tail. Doesn't Sabertooth want to win and badly?

Thats certainly a big part of the current problem with the serie.

[Hopeless]

I've read the manga covered by the current episode released yesterday but i was wondering if perhaps whoever is in charge of arranging this tournament did so specifically to downgrade Fairy Tail itself?

By the time the others returned it had been left financially destitute given what was seen between it and Twilight Ogre and the comments in that anime episode made me wonder if the entire purpose of the tournaments was to arrange the complete dissolution of Fairy Tail.

IF that is the case then there never was any case of Sabertooth being a match for Fairy Tail all of its wins were part of the scheme to dissolve Fairy Tail and Sabertooth's current situation is that it has yet to realise that fact.

What do you think?

Finally read the manga relevant to that episode and it matches!

I seriously think the tournament which wasn't even mentioned before the 7 year time skip was formed for a purpose thats yet to be revealed but I wouldn't be surprised if my guess is accurate!

Spoiler

Go ahead pick holes in it, I think whoever set the tournament up might not only be related to the attempt by that knight to use Lucy to travel into the past but there's evidence to support that event and his rival is deliberately acting to prevent it now that they've returned and he's failed to destroy Fairy Tail!