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00:17 OneTinSoldier Hey look everyone's coming back at the same time
00:17 TheAmishPony Woohoo
00:17 TheAmishPony Bike ride home took a mite longer than I thought
00:17 TheAmishPony but now I have delicious rice
00:17 OneTinSoldier Ah, I know how that goes
00:18 OneTinSoldier Sounds yummy
00:18 BlasTech Unfortunately my connection seem a bit iffy here today
00:19 BlasTech Managed to lag out earlier, not sure how long it's taking for my replies to appear now
00:19 OneTinSoldier Ah, so that's what was happening
00:19 OneTinSoldier I've been having similar problems
00:19 TheAmishPony No worries
00:19 TheAmishPony Now I know it's lag and not something I said
00:20 TheAmishPony So, do you want to handle the character stuff here, or in an IM?
00:20 TheAmishPony Or rather, OneTin, would you mind if we character'd it up in here?
00:20 OneTinSoldier No, I don't mind at all
00:21 OneTinSoldier In fact, I'd like to watch
00:23 BlasTech Auck
00:23 BlasTech An audience!
00:23 BlasTech cowers
00:23 OneTinSoldier chuckles
00:23 OneTinSoldier I won't interrupt if you don't want me to
00:25 TheAmishPony Don't worry, I can fix it!
00:25 TheAmishPony glues confidence to BlasTech's head
00:29 BlasTech Ooh, new hat.
00:29 BlasTech Righto, well lets get cracking then, my typing may be interrupted by having to get up and talk to people here but.
00:30 TheAmishPony S'cool, my typing might be interrupted by general work
00:32 BlasTech ... this thing still on?
00:32 OneTinSoldier YEp
00:32 TheAmishPony Got that one
00:33 BlasTech Right, well a bit of character generation theory to kick off then.
00:33 BlasTech I've found during fiddling with a few different rulebooks that the character creation prompts that are often suggested are often poor at making real characters. They just make stats that you put a name to.
00:33 BlasTech So for now, forget any stats and forget any of the RiM mechanics you may have read. We'll start with the high concepts first.
00:34 BlasTech Because the better and more fleshed out you make your character, the more you'll both enjoy and be able to understand what actions they'll take. And overall enjoy the RP more.
00:35 BlasTech Or to quote ... "RP's succeed or fail in the character generation stage" - Thanqol 2012
00:36 TheAmishPony This should be easy, as I've hardly read the rules as is
00:36 TheAmishPony is always one step ahead
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00:37 OneTinSoldier chuckles again
00:37 TheAmishPony Not to mention that I find whenever you wing a character, you tend to just model them after yourself
00:37 TheAmishPony No matter what you had originally intended for them
00:39 Balmas To tell the truth, Dive Bomb is me taken up to 11, plus a side of tragic backstory.
00:39 OneTinSoldier Grease is a bit of an odd case, in terms of me
00:40 OneTinSoldier She started out fairly similar, but she wound up being someone who I really wouldn't get along with
00:40 Balmas Though, DB is more Twilight Sparkle, and I'm more Pinkie Pie.
00:40 OneTinSoldier Because I'm lazy as Tartarus
00:42 OneTinSoldier Anyway
00:42 OneTinSoldier Carry on
00:50 BlasTech Sorry, was just talking to manager
00:51 BlasTech Right, well based on personal experience, I've found that the easiest way to make a good character is by building them around an ideal.
00:51 BlasTech characters are basically expressions of ideas anyway.
00:53 TheAmishPony So what do I do when I've already got the basis of the character down?
00:53 BlasTech Well then you need to ask yourself, what is their "Ideal"
00:54 BlasTech This ideal is generally a simple powerful expression, something that they value inherently or that, to them, would result in a perfect world
00:56 TheAmishPony Hmm
00:57 TheAmishPony I think the main ideal that I'm playing with here
00:57 TheAmishPony Is something regarding responsibility
00:57 TheAmishPony Responsibility and obligations
00:58 BlasTech Characters tend to express it differently, Rainbow dash may have hers as "I can do anything". Or Pinkie Pie's "Everyone deserves to smile".
00:59 BlasTech What would be Cork's perfect world?
00:59 TheAmishPony What do you mean by "perfect world"? To me, that's a rather broad statement, and can cover many different worlds
01:00 TheAmishPony Like, is this a realistic perfect, or an idealistic one?
01:00 TheAmishPony Or maybe I'm just overthinking the concept
01:00 BlasTech Idealistic, remember we are talking ideals here.
01:01 TheAmishPony OKay
01:01 BlasTech His Ideal existance. What is it's core trait. What is the thing that most separates it from reality?
01:01 BlasTech its*
01:02 TheAmishPony Ohh, existance, not a literal world
01:02 TheAmishPony rather, Equestria, in this instance
01:03 BlasTech spelling blah
01:04 TheAmishPony Thinking....thinking...
01:04 BlasTech Sorry
01:04 BlasTech But yeah, sometimes a good starting point for the ideal is finding out a way to express the character's thoughts on how to end the sentence: "In a perfect world ... X"
01:04 TheAmishPony "In a perfect world, I'd have all the time I need."
01:05 TheAmishPony It's vague, but it's the first thing that came to mind
01:06 BlasTech hmm, why does he need more time?
01:07 TheAmishPony Because there's always a time limit that he's bumping into. He can't ever finish a painting on time because he spends so long fussing over the details. He waits and waits to talk to his dad about the family business, and now he has to rush a decision before one is made for him.
01:07 TheAmishPony I guess to boil it down more
01:08 TheAmishPony it's because he's never satisfied with anything less than perfection
01:08 TheAmishPony and he's never sure if that's what he's got
01:08 TheAmishPony *perfection from himself, rather
01:09 TheAmishPony well, no, I don't want to constrain that too early
01:10 BlasTech I think chat lagged then, my question was meant to be asked before you elaborated ...
01:10 TheAmishPony oh, whoops
01:10 BlasTech so I guess he's a bit of a self-demanding perfectionist then. Does he expect the same from other ponies? Or is it more internal values?
01:12 TheAmishPony I'm thinking of going external, too many of my characters have that internal perfectionism going on
01:12 TheAmishPony or rather, high internal standards
01:13 TheAmishPony Can you give a bit to think? I'm not sure I'm satisfied with how I boiled it down
01:13 TheAmishPony *give me a bit
01:14 BlasTech Yeah sure
01:14 BlasTech That is the whole point of these convos lol, getting people to think! XD
01:15 TheAmishPony I think I might be seeing where I steered wrong. It isn't a "my work isn't perfect, argh!", it's a "my work isn't yet perfect, give me a bit more time"
01:16 TheAmishPony So the motivation is kind of flip-flopped: He wants perfection in his work, has a vision of how to get there, he just never has enough time to follow through
01:17 TheAmishPony So he is satisfied with what he's done
01:17 TheAmishPony But he just wants to do MORE
01:17 BlasTech I'm getting kind of mixed messages here I think.
01:18 BlasTech The difference between a "my work isn't perfect, argh!" and a "My work isn't perfect yet, give me more time" is the difference between one person struggling for his self acceptance, and a person struggling to comply with authority/imposed rules
01:19 TheAmishPony I think you've got it more pegged than I do
01:20 BlasTech Both of those I'd probably see as internal values style ideals
01:20 TheAmishPony Guess a few more cooks does not ruin the stew [/zecora]
01:20 BlasTech Both are "I want to do the best work I can", it's just that one has someone external preventing him, while the other has his own sense of self worth fighting him
01:21 BlasTech External values ideals would be like "I want to give others the chance to be the best they can be" or something similar.
01:21 TheAmishPony takes notes
01:22 BlasTech lol @ zecora
01:22 TheAmishPony So now I need to think
01:22 TheAmishPony as planned
01:22 TheAmishPony more on external vs. internal
01:23 TheAmishPony Yeah, despite my best efforts, it's an internal
01:23 TheAmishPony which actually weren't much in the way of efforts, but oh well!
01:23 TheAmishPony I can do another internal character, it's what I know, at least
01:24 BlasTech muahaha
01:24 BlasTech Up to you lol XD
01:25 TheAmishPony Well, since I've got more than one brain to pick here
01:25 TheAmishPony how would we turn this into something external?
01:25 OneTinSoldier For what its worth, we already have a character with an external issue of "I must make others perfect"
01:25 OneTinSoldier In Grease Spot
01:25 TheAmishPony Oh, we do?
01:25 TheAmishPony right
01:26 TheAmishPony has a million things going on right now, apolgies if he derps
01:26 OneTinSoldier returns to lurking
01:26 BlasTech For reference, I think Grease spot's ideal is external, while DB is more internal so far.
01:26 BlasTech It doesn't matter so much which you pick, but it's important to get the distinctions down pat for your character, as it drives different behaviours.
01:27 BlasTech While we do, there can be multiple ways of being able to do perfect others.
01:27 OneTinSoldier Indeed, didn't want to imply there wasn't
01:27 BlasTech Anyway, to continue your example from above, a way of externalising the "my work isny perfect yet, give me more time" way of thinking is by having the character believe that ponies simply need time and encouragement to accomplish anything
01:30 BlasTech Turns the character into a more laid back, supportive one than a self-demanding perfectionist.
01:30 BlasTech Alternatively, you can take the self-demanding side and project that onto others in a "if only everyone held themselves to high standards" way.
01:30 BlasTech This course may or may not turn out to give you a jerk as a PC
01:30 BlasTech "to my* high standards"
01:30 TheAmishPony Yeah, I don't want another jerk
01:30 TheAmishPony Played one for a full year, and my Changeling character is a half-jerk as a result
01:31 TheAmishPony I do like the idea of the laid-back, supportive type
01:32 TheAmishPony I like it a lot, actually
01:32 Balmas So, in this case he'd be more the kind to help others?
01:33 TheAmishPony Yeah, I think so
01:33 TheAmishPony Just to get it out there
01:33 BlasTech To my mind, it turns him into a bit more of a hippie "You don't get anything good by forcing it out of others" style
01:34 TheAmishPony one of the things I wanted to play with was that whole responsibilities vs obligations thing with him and the family business, which then gets transferred over to the leadership of this little group
01:35 TheAmishPony And it seems to me that going with HippieCork would make that much less of an issue
01:35 OneTinSoldier Maybe not
01:36 OneTinSoldier I mean, anyone who can be described with the word "hippie" seems like they would be uncomfortable in a leadership position
01:36 TheAmishPony True
01:36 TheAmishPony And it may be that he is how he is simply because of that conflict in his upbringing
01:37 TheAmishPony Hmm, I think I need to think a lot more before I type, I keep misspeaking here
01:38 OneTinSoldier That's ok, I almost never feel like I convey my thoughts properly
01:39 BlasTech I think it depends on whether they lead from the front, the top or the back
01:40 TheAmishPony What I mean to say is that he was pretty much groomed to take over the family business, even though his father was never overly cruel or forceful about it. It was just something that was expected of him. After he earned his cutie mark, that expectation was never challenged.
01:40 TheAmishPony And he never was really comfortable with the realities of running a business.
01:42 BlasTech Top down leadership is your typical corporate manager. Sets deadlines, micromanages people, doesn't really get their hands dirty. (Very un-hippie)
01:42 TheAmishPony What about leading from the front?
01:42 TheAmishPony I'm trying to also get a mental peg on the father, as that's a HUGE figure in Crown's life
01:43 BlasTech Leading from the front is one that wades in, gets stuck into problems themselves and expects others to catch up. (Also rather un-hippie, but not as much as top down and /can/ work with certain styles of character)
01:43 BlasTech More like a "cmon guys, this is fun check out what we can do if we try this"
01:43 BlasTech Leading from the back is the kind of person who prefers to stay out of the spotlight, offer advice and moral support, may or may not be technically proficient but who all the people running with tasks would feel comfortable coming to talk to for help.
01:43 TheAmishPony His dad is absolutely a front-leader
01:44 TheAmishPony Somepony who probably works the soda-making stuff almost as much as some of the workers
01:45 TheAmishPony And would bring up his son the same way
01:45 BlasTech Doesn't drive the outcome, so stuff may or may not get done, but is always there trying to encourage it if needed.
01:45 BlasTech That's a bit more hippie style
01:45 BlasTech Think "team mom"
01:46 TheAmishPony That's the style Crown would probably use
01:46 BlasTech From what you said, and this is just how it sounds to me, it seemed like Cork is a back-leader who is stuck in a top-leader's job.
01:46 BlasTech And he would probably /hate/ that
01:47 BlasTech (now to sit and wait while chat lag sorts itself out)
01:49 TheAmishPony Okay, I think it's sorted
01:49 BlasTech cool, so. your thoughts?
01:50 OneTinSoldier Well I'm starting to see an interesting character dynamic with Grease
01:50 OneTinSoldier She would likely misjudge him at first because of his reluctance to lead
01:51 OneTinSoldier And only later figure out that he does want to contribute, just not from the spotlight
01:51 Balmas DB would probably sympathize with the parent wanting him to be something that he's not.
01:51 BlasTech Depending on where we end up with the ideal though
01:51 Balmas This is true.
01:52 OneTinSoldier True
01:52 TheAmishPony My thoughts: Dad still seems like a front-leader, with some elements of a top-leader as well
01:52 TheAmishPony I think the fact that this is a family business
01:53 TheAmishPony and there is no option to not getting your hands dirty
01:53 TheAmishPony is throwing me off a bit
01:54 BlasTech Does it have other employees?
01:54 TheAmishPony At this point? Yeah, I think it has to
01:55 BlasTech I thought you said it was a fairly renowned one in Canterlot so I was picturing a substantial size (I might be wrong, or hey we can change it! XD)
01:55 TheAmishPony ^exactly
01:55 TheAmishPony But for some reason, I keep seeing him as the type to get personally involved with some of the process
01:56 TheAmishPony Like, soda-brewing is his cutie mark, he's got to do it at least a little
01:56 TheAmishPony or something like that
01:56 TheAmishPony Yeah, I think you've got it: Top-down leader, but still willing to get his hooves dirty
01:56 BlasTech For the dad?
01:56 TheAmishPony aye
01:57 TheAmishPony Which then means that's how Crown is brought up
01:57 TheAmishPony Here's a thought:
01:57 TheAmishPony Maybe the reason Crown might actually bother with any sort of leadership
01:58 TheAmishPony Is because he thinks he can do it better when he's in charge
01:58 TheAmishPony Or something like that
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02:00 TheAmishPony Just a thought
02:03 OneTinSoldier I'm guessing Blas is just away for a moment
02:03 OneTinSoldier or lagging
02:03 BlasTech It all comes down to why he might think that but. Actively pursuing leadership is something that would run counter to a laid-back deadline hating pony probably.
02:05 TheAmishPony True, but then again, he's not really actively pursuing it
02:05 TheAmishPony just sort of letting it maybe happen at this point
02:06 TheAmishPony and only getting spurred into action by the sudden trip to Canterlot
02:06 TheAmishPony Do you think we should move on to getting some things set in stone? Or should we keep speculating on the character like this?
02:08 BlasTech speculating on the character is valuable, and I'm happy enough if it just leaves you with some food for thought to mull over till our next irc chat
02:08 TheAmishPony That may be for the best, as I really have some work I should be doing
02:09 BlasTech the key question is unresolved in my mind, which is if he is going to be a leader, how would he lead, and why would he want to lead?
02:09 BlasTech active/passive, internal/external
02:09 BlasTech it'll all drive his ideal
02:09 TheAmishPony I'll give that some thought
02:09 TheAmishPony map out those, and see which one is the character I want to play
02:10 TheAmishPony or something like that
02:11 BlasTech And that's the important thing to figure out right.
02:11 BlasTech anyway, if you need to go for work, I'll catch you next time!
02:11 BlasTech (or rather, it will all shape his ideal)
02:12 TheAmishPony later!
02:12 *** TheAmishPony is now known as TheAmishAFK
02:13 BlasTech yeah
02:13 BlasTech find out which one you like most!
02:13 BlasTech Cause you won't enjoy the RP if you don't enjoy the character after all.
02:13 BlasTech cyas
02:15 OneTinSoldier I'm gonna head to bed now, since you guys are done for the night
02:15 OneTinSoldier or day for you, i guess
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02:16 OneTinSoldier Goodnight
10:19 system You have disconnected from the server