Warhammer 40k RPGs General (Warhammer Fantasy RPG can come too)

[Cikomyr]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Sabotage the null-field matrix generator that's keeping a Tyranid splinter fleet from attacking the planet?

In 40K, Summon Bigger Fish is always an option. Always.

So you are practically recreating the Eldar plan, but with 'Nids instead of Chaos... I see...


Man, my first Radical game went today. It was a glorious success!!! I played it rather cool on the Knowledge Know-it-all and Mobile Sensor, but were droning them about filling out bureaucratic forms at every opportunity. They all thought my new Special Shotgun is rather cool.

Originally, it's just a simple Best Craftsmanship Meat Hammer with Las-sight and fire-selector, including Man-stopped rounds.

But when I got talking with the GM about the ritual of creating a Daemonweapon, he said "why would you want to create a Daemon melee weapon? You suck in melee! Let's find rules that allow you to create Daemon Ranged Weapons. How about your shotgun?"

Me:

So I ended up with a Bound Daemon-Meat Hammer. 3 shots before a 9-turn reload sequence, 2d5+12 (pen 8), Tearing & Scatter. Willpower 50, with the following randomly rolled attributes:

- Glittery --> ennemies takes -10% on dodge and parry
- Damage 1d10 Toughness everytime I do damage...

When we got facing a Halo Monster stage 3, I hit it ONCE with my shotgun. Well, I rolled a 06, so I got 6 degrees of success --> 3 hits. I did a lot of damage, but I also reduced its Toughness by 20..

Poor creature had pitiful Toughness of 30 initially. It was riding us on an Unnatural Toughness of x3 to survive our hits. It didn't lasted long after

The people around the table went all: "Where did you got that power?!?!" and I just smiled and said I went through all the books and did my homework, and managed to negotiate the proper upgrades. I even handed over the Daemonshotgun over to the (Untouchable) Techpriest for analysis, if he wanted the GM to tells him everything.

MWAHAHAHAHAHA

Spoiler

Edit: On an additional note, I already put into motions a plan to corrupt a fellow Acolyte through his newly acquired Natural Armor Mutation.

"Hey, fellow Acolyte. Your new mutation is cool, but you need to fill Form X and Y to be an authorized mutant. Don't worry, I'll stamp them with Top Secret privacy, so nobody has to know."

"That's nice of you.."

"By the way, I can get you cream that could maybe hide your mutation up to a level, you could pass as normal... And it's also possible it would further increase your Natural Armor.."

"Cool!!! What kind of increase?"

(A very complice GM): "One additional point"

"Yhea, thanks mate!"

"So.. you have 7 doses here. You have to say when you put it on at the beginning of each day"

"Hmm.. it's not much. I don't want to bother you more than necessary. Hey Techpriest, can you copy the cream so I have infinite supply?"

Techpriest: "Sure!!"

Man, it's one thing to slaughter a sheep for power. It's another to have him gleefully jump on the altar and scream "AGAIN!! AGAIN!!"

[shadow_archmagi]

Originally Posted by Cikomyr

I have to say, I find your "Necrons are stopped" rather easy. How will the PC stop a wakening Necron army that makes the Eldar soil their pants?

I'm thinking for that stage of the adventure they'll have to either call in or earn favors to see about getting some heavy-hitters to come in. Actually, that raises another question-

Most of what I know about Necrons comes from the Dawn of War games and the wiki. What are some descriptions of buried Necron forces in other media, that might go into more detail about the process of a tomb world awakening, and how many Necrons are generally in one, what kind of a threat this is, etc.

[Cikomyr]

What you have to understand with Necrons is: they don't die.

When you shoot them, they either reassemble on the spot or teleport to the nearest available Tomb when utterly wrecked.

The thing is, they become madder and madder as they die and reassemble.

Technically, as far as I know, you can only be safe (for the moment) if you destroy the Tomb.

[The Glyphstone]

The first question is if you're using Oldcrons or Newcrons/Retcrons. That makes your question have two extremely different sets of answers.

[shadow_archmagi]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

The first question is if you're using Oldcrons or Newcrons/Retcrons. That makes your question have two extremely different sets of answers.

The Retcrons sound like they might be more fun, but I'm even less familiar with them. (On the other hand, I suppose I could just go to my minion's basement and nick the latest necrondex to catch up. That's the only place they appear right now, right?)

[Opperhapsen]

Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi

The Retcrons sound like they might be more fun, but I'm even less familiar with them. (On the other hand, I suppose I could just go to my minion's basement and nick the latest necrondex to catch up. That's the only place they appear right now, right?)

As far as I know, yes.
Basically the difference is instead of being a ceaseless wave of robot mummies singlemindedly dedicated to ending life, they're now the tomb kings.
Now personality comes into play, and personal ambition.

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

The artifact could be a focus item or something, an object that, while minor by itself, would be of unimaginable power if it's combined with the rest of its pieces. the Chaos Sorcerer has the rest, and the artifact in question is the last remaining piece. Except it's been inhabited by a Nurglish demon, who likes its new home and its new friends and doesn't want to leave.

Of course it has to be semi-beneficial to make getting rid of it a harder decision. If you take the pre-Liber Chaotica image of the Ruinous Powers, they have deeply buried 'positive' aspects, and Nurgle is the god of Life in addition to Death - maybe the demon occasionally heals wounds (when it feels like it), and attacks people trying to hurt its 'friends' (for its own definitions of 'hurt).

I thought they still had that aspect?
Or is that just in fantasy?

Maybe something that dies for you?
Like if you die it dies instead?
I don't know, nurgle can pull some seriously weird stuff if you want it

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Opperhapsen

As far as I know, yes.
Basically the difference is instead of being a ceaseless wave of robot mummies singlemindedly dedicated to ending life, they're now the tomb kings.
Now personality comes into play, and personal ambition.

I thought they still had that aspect?
Or is that just in fantasy?

Maybe something that dies for you?
Like if you die it dies instead?
I don't know, nurgle can pull some seriously weird stuff if you want it

It's been seriously minimized and de-emphasized in 40K, I think it only really survives in Fantasy in official fluff.

[DontEatRawHagis]

How do the different RPGs play? I know there are some compatibility issues. but what are the playstyles like.

I have a Free RPG day Deathwatch packet. Long story short, seemed a bit like a super hero game with all the bonuses they seemed to get.

I have only seen Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader in stores but I hear about an Imperial Guard book coming out soon, that is in beta.

[The Glyphstone]

Deathwatch is pretty much the epitomy of Rocket Tag - everyone, friends and enemies alike, have so much armor compared to their health that if you manage to land a hit, it'll either bounce off entirely or almost oneshot them - hits that don't do double-digit damage are irrelevant because they can be healed to full effortlessly. There is never a situation where a Heavy Bolter is not the best weapon in the game.

[Gavinfoxx]

Only War is the most refined of the systems, being the newest... you might want to look at that one first; you should probably let that be your first impression! The next closest is Black Crusade.

[king.com]

Originally Posted by DontEatRawHagis

How do the different RPGs play? I know there are some compatibility issues. but what are the playstyles like.

I have a Free RPG day Deathwatch packet. Long story short, seemed a bit like a super hero game with all the bonuses they seemed to get.

I have only seen Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader in stores but I hear about an Imperial Guard book coming out soon, that is in beta.

Dark Heresy is your investigation and horror based game as you work for the Imperial Inquistion. Your designed to be underequipped, in over your heads and generally just trying to figure out whats going on so you can get the hell out there before whatever insane horror or sinister plot gets you first. Lots of fun conspiracy stuff but if your looking for a combat game this is a bad place. Combat is fun for what it does but your designed not to actually want to seek it. Your playing average humans in a universe where genetically engineered super soldiers cant hold back the monsters and aliens in the universe. Your a human who is likely to fail more often than not so its about planning and smart play to keep yourself going.

Rogue Trader is the freeform version of that same game except with the way resources are concerned. You own a ship and the crew of potentially 100,000 people under your command. Its about exploring the galaxy, looting, pillaging, negotiating trade agreements and stealing dangerous alien tech to strap onto your ship. Very much a game about 'hey whats over there? Can we make profit off of it?' and less concerns with the low level issues going on. Though interpersonal problems are still going to be an issue the game's strength is about the party being a larger than life crew looking to get rich as quickly as they can, even if they accidently open a necron tomb in the process.

Deathwatch is the combat game of the series. Yes you can do negotiation and investigation but your playing genetically engineered super soldiers. Your going to solve problems violently most of the the time. Combat is a little wonky since the system itself isnt designed to cater to this level of power and the final result is rocket tag more often than not and a lot of weapons as (described above) create problems because the mechanics arent designed for you to actually handle them properly. Still can be fun but there are some issues that need to be considered first.

Black Crusade is about playing heretics both human and chaos space marines. Its a game that tries to give you a lot of freedom but ends up with some wonkyness of its own. The largest being its a power gamers dream and theres some pretty hilarious problems that get involved with creating a character (the minion system for example). Theres definitely fun to be had but when your playing the bad guys you really need to do a lot of handwaving with regards to 'dont murder each other please', theres rules for it but they arent perfect. This becomes a problem when you have both chaos space marines and humans in the party as guns fall into the 'kills marines or kills humans' and balance doesnt mix too well. The game gives room for a lot of shenenigans though so which always mixes things up.

Only War has you playing as soldiers of the Imperial Guard. It was a originally a source book for Dark Heresy that was converted into a fullblown game and it unfortunately shows. The 'refining' they have done to the system solved some issues but introduced a whole bunch of others. The game has a pretty heavy combat focus but theres still room for investigating/diplomacy/etc but it really depends on party setup I find. The real problem with the game is that its ultimately a subsection of what you can already do in Dark Heresy so in terms of value its probably the least bang for buck from any of the core rulebooks.

Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx

Only War is the most refined of the systems, being the newest... you might want to look at that one first; you should probably let that be your first impression! The next closest is Black Crusade.

Also this advice isnt very good to take. Each of the systems do VERY different things despite being from the same original rules. The rules are in place to enhance the playstyle of that particular game. Only War for example has a base bonus to hit when attacking while Dark Heresy does not. This is as the result of designing a game for combat in Only War and Dark Heresy works to try and encourage you to avoid combat.

[Cikomyr]

True that. In DH, rushing headstrong into battle will get you killed. The combat system is unforgiving, but if you play smart, you can win it.

I wanted to ask you guys a question. In the Eisenhorn Trilogy, the titular character acquires two powerful artifacts; a Psi-boosting staff and the Psi-controlled greatword he loots off his dead acolyte (a true roleplayer!!)

Anybody ever saw the stats for either of these goodies?

[Gavinfoxx]

Originally Posted by king.com

Only War for example has a base bonus to hit when attacking while Dark Heresy does not. This is as the result of designing a game for combat in Only War and Dark Heresy works to try and encourage you to avoid combat.

But there's also the fact that, in several ways, the later rules are refinements of the previous ones, and are far more elegant for it. Why else would so many people be trying to convert the other systems to Only War? Because it is a more elegant refinement of the system!

[king.com]

Originally Posted by Cikomyr

True that. In DH, rushing headstrong into battle will get you killed. The combat system is unforgiving, but if you play smart, you can win it.

I wanted to ask you guys a question. In the Eisenhorn Trilogy, the titular character acquires two powerful artifacts; a Psi-boosting staff and the Psi-controlled greatword he loots off his dead acolyte (a true roleplayer!!)

Anybody ever saw the stats for either of these goodies?

The sword he gets from the blademaster he remakes into a Force Sword and the Psi-boosting staff would be just a Force Staff too. They are just force weapons though Barbariser could arguably be a demon weapon the way he goes on and on about it being the thing that fights not Eisenhorn himself.

Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx

But there's also the fact that, in several ways, the later rules are refinements of the previous ones, and are far more elegant for it. Why else would so many people be trying to convert the other systems to Only War? Because it is a more elegant refinement of the system!

I disagree completely. The people who I've found to be converting it dont actually want to play Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader and want the more 'big damn heroes' type of game, something Only War and Black Crusade do pretty well at (which is where the systems are going with their massive power creep). Being involved in how these rules developed highlighted that they are simply designed for different purposes and if your trying to convert these rules with understanding the fundamentals behind it all you end up with complete garbage. Thats why for a new player, like someone asking how the systems play, I say DONT WORRY ABOUT THEIR LEGACY, just find the game system that most suits how you want to play/run a game and go for it. They all have their problems and their strengths/weaknesses.

I disagree that Only War is more 'refined', its just as equally a buggy mess as the other systems can be and if you run another game with its rules you end up with hilarious problems (like the 70-80% to hit rank 1 Assassin for example).

[Cikomyr]

Originally Posted by king.com

The sword he gets from the blademaster he remakes into a Force Sword and the Psi-boosting staff would be just a Force Staff too. They are just force weapons though Barbariser could arguably be a demon weapon the way he goes on and on about it being the thing that fights not Eisenhorn himself..

Are you sure? Barbariser seemed to be weilded by Eisenhorn's willpower, not his skill at arm. I was wondering if it was something of a mix between a Kinetic Blade and a regular sword.

As for the Staff... it apparently greatly increases one's psi power. So I'm not sure if it's only a Force Staff...

[king.com]

Originally Posted by Cikomyr

Are you sure? Barbariser seemed to be weilded by Eisenhorn's willpower, not his skill at arm. I was wondering if it was something of a mix between a Kinetic Blade and a regular sword.

As for the Staff... it apparently greatly increases one's psi power. So I'm not sure if it's only a Force Staff...

I was more describing how Dan Abnett constantly refers 'Barbariser saw and opening', 'Barbariser cut left and I followed' etc etc.

He specifically describes the thing as being a Force Sword so im going to say its that.

The Force Staff doesnt increase, it focuses the power of the user. Much like a Force Staff which can act as a Psi Focus which allows you to Invocate in return for doubling your willpower bonus. Sure its probably mastercrafted/best quality Force Staff but what that item does is perfectly appropriate to the properties of Eisenhorn's staff. Not to mention force weapons by default have a tendency to horribly murder anyone you get a hit on.

[LCP]

I've got to say, I'm currently running Dark Heresy, but I've looked over the Only War beta rules and I like how they've updated the combat system.

I don't think all the changes are all about being "big damn heroes" (if anything, Only War seems closer to DH than DW or BC in that regard). I'm not going to suddenly drop them into my game because I think DH works alright as-is, and I'm not a fan of cluttering things up with great lists of house rules (I tend to forget them if I do). Two things that really caught my eye, though:

• Righteous Fury changes to the following: if your hit would have got through your opponent's soak, you do a 1d5 critical (which does not stack with later criticals if the opponent still has wounds remaining). If your hit would not have got through your opponent's soak, you do one wound. NPCS can now get righteous fury too, WFRP 2E-style.
• If you roll very low for damage, you can trade your damage roll for the degrees of success on your to-hit roll.

Both of these I think are good changes, addressing one of the things that niggles at me about DH's combat system - that you can often get a situation where a guy wearing very little armour just takes a lasbolt to the chest like it's a light breeze. These changes don't remove that entirely, but they do help.

I've never been too enthused by Deathwatch or Black Crusade, but I think from the looks of it I would greatly enjoy running an Only War campaign. It looks like Gaunt's Ghosts: the Game.

[king.com]

Originally Posted by LCP

I don't think all the changes are all about being "big damn heroes" (if anything, Only War seems closer to DH than DW or BC in that regard). I'm not going to suddenly drop them into my game because I think DH works alright as-is, and I'm not a fan of cluttering things up with great lists of house rules (I tend to forget them if I do).

Yea I was exaggerating a little but you get MOOKS to follow you around as your side kicks. I dont think Only War is a bad game but I feel its important to point out that the rules are not inherently better than the others and converting them actually causes more problems than it solves.

Originally Posted by LCP

• Righteous Fury changes to the following: if your hit would have got through your opponent's soak, you do a 1d5 critical (which does not stack with later criticals if the opponent still has wounds remaining). If your hit would not have got through your opponent's soak, you do one wound. NPCS can now get righteous fury too, WFRP 2E-style.
• If you roll very low for damage, you can trade your damage roll for the degrees of success on your to-hit roll.

Both of these I think are good changes, addressing one of the things that niggles at me about DH's combat system - that you can often get a situation where a guy wearing very little armour just takes a lasbolt to the chest like it's a light breeze. These changes don't remove that entirely, but they do help.

I found the minimal damage roles end up as glancing shots that just scratch you. Dark Heresy definitely support the idea that human equipment is garbage while alien and heretic stuff is about completely messing you up. Alternatively...

Originally Posted by LCP

I've never been too enthused by Deathwatch or Black Crusade, but I think from the looks of it I would greatly enjoy running an Only War campaign. It looks like Gaunt's Ghosts: the Game.

Thats what I hope you can run, unfortunately the real solidness of Gaunts Ghosts is that main characters are constantly being killed off. Something you dont necessarily want to be doing in a roleplaying game (unless you have a group really set up to do it).

Unfortunately with the creation system, you can easily end up with a super skilled black ops killing machine regiment that can put space marines to shame.

I think the best possible way to run Only War is to have every player make 5 or so characters reprensenting the major characters of the regiment. GM acts as commanding officer running you on missions and players pick one of their 5 characters, experience being one big pool so you can level up who you want. Your goal is to be deployed at the start of a crusade and step by step your going to be playing out the crusade until your entire regiment is wiped out.

[LCP]

Originally Posted by king.com

Yea I was exaggerating a little but you get MOOKS to follow you around as your side kicks.

I like the Comrades idea. I haven't seen it in play yet, but as far as I see it has the following advantages:

• It lets the PCs play the 'cool' guys in the squad (sergeant, heavy gunner, meltagun-man) without then leaving you with an immersion-breaking squad comprised entirely of specialists.
• It makes the PCs put some work into fleshing out their squadmates, giving things a more "band of brothers" feeling (as opposed to Dark Heresy, where you get a lot of dark, brooding loners in dark, brooding trenchcoats).
• As soon as they get out of Cohesion, the Comrades become vulnerable to quick and messy deaths, so it makes the PCs think about fighting as a squad.
• Assuming you have players who like to roleplay, killing Comrades gives you a way to bring across the brutality of war without necessarily killing a PC every other session. Get that Gaunt's Ghosts feeling, like you said - just as you're getting to like Private Johnson, BAM, bullet to the face.
• On a similar note, Commissars and their field executions would be unplayable party-poopers if not for Comrades.

It's worth pointing out that a Comrade is only a discrete NPC for narrative purposes, and for the purposes of getting shot; in all other respects, they basically function like a nifty skill or talent for the PC (and all the other titles have plentiful supplies of such unique abilities too). They're also comrades, not minions - while they might be junior members of the squad, they're there to fight alongside the PCs, not do exactly what they say in every situation.

I guess what I'm saying is I think they work well in context. I wouldn't port them across to Dark Heresy, but if I was playing Only War, I would definitely use them. And I don't think that automatically makes the PCs into big-headed action heroes.

I dont think Only War is a bad game but I feel its important to point out that the rules are not inherently better than the others and converting them actually causes more problems than it solves.

I don't think anyone's saying you should port the rules over wholesale and try to play Dark Heresy using the Only War rulebook (or any other title). What I think the previous poster was saying is that parts of the basic rules (specifically, combat - stuff like combat actions, semi/full auto fire, righteous fury etc.) have been refined in ways that are independent of the genre changes between the different titles, and that the earlier games could benefit from porting those parts back. I'd agree with that position; the only reason I don't do it myself is laziness/a dislike of excessive house rules.

I think another thing people generally like to port back is the overhaul of the psychic system - DH is the only title that still uses power dice instead of focus power tests. I don't personally have an opinion on that; I haven't got much experience GMing for psykers, and I don't have one in my current group so it's not much of an issue for me at the moment. It seems like it'd be a more effort-intensive thing to do, though, because you'd have to modify the individual powers as well as the overall rules.

Unfortunately with the creation system, you can easily end up with a super skilled black ops killing machine regiment that can put space marines to shame.

I'd like to see an exact example of what you're talking about; not because I doubt your general point, but because it's difficult to tell how much of it is hyperbole. But more importantly, you can do the same in pretty much every title. They are all rules-heavy RPGs with arbitrarily numerous combinations of skills, equipment and other stuff.

So yes, it wouldn't surprise me that much if you could find a way to make an Only War character who could fight a space marine. It would surprise me more if you could show there was no Dark Heresy exploit that could do the same thing. Either way, with reasonable players and a sensible GM, these things aren't big problems when you're playing the game for fun.

[king.com]

Im not sure why you think im against comrades, I like them but not for the reasons your mentioning.

EDIT: Oh god I went overboard.....what I wont do to avoid studying...

Having looked at that again...Im thinking this should maybe be done over PM or something if people want to keep discussing it...

Spoiler

Originally Posted by LCP

It lets the PCs play the 'cool' guys in the squad (sergeant, heavy gunner, meltagun-man) without then leaving you with an immersion-breaking squad comprised entirely of specialists.

When you end up with a squad of a Commissar, Psyker, Techpriest and an Ogyn. Your already playing an immersion-breaking squad. They should just frame things around you playing the A-team. Theres too much already in the game that lets you break that mold. Yeah thats the intension of these units but they dont really serve that role anyway. They should be used to act as support and as extra wounds for the party. You should be able to use the comrade to take a hit for you instead of using a fate point. The idea that the way the Emperor protects is to have someone else take te bullet. Your team mates are your edge against the world since your not special enough to get Inquisition level direct input from the Emperor, you need to rely on the collective faith of your regiment. That keeps up the complete worthlessness of human life the Imperium operates on and gets to keep everyone in line.

Originally Posted by LCP

It makes the PCs put some work into fleshing out their squadmates, giving things a more "band of brothers" feeling (as opposed to Dark Heresy, where you get a lot of dark, brooding loners in dark, brooding trenchcoats).

I dont anyone who is going to suddenly develop a desire to flesh out their character and their unit because they have someone giving them a +5 or the like. My experience with comrades is that players treat them like pets, they're ignored until they get in a situation where the bonus helps them. Maybe you've experienced it differently but after running a campaigns with the system and playing in one aswell it was a real difficulty to care about them given how little they can impact their environment.

Originally Posted by LCP

[*]As soon as they get out of Cohesion, the Comrades become vulnerable to quick and messy deaths, so it makes the PCs think about fighting as a squad.

I feel my groups commissar put it best "Every time I move, you follow me. If you dont, you die. Every time I shoot, you shoot. If you dont, you die. Every time I charge the enemy, you charge. If you dont, you die. Are the sensing the pattern?"

Most weren't that blunt but they had rank over them so its very much a situation of stick to your PC and you might live. When you have a character who is the very definition of expendible its difficult to care about them.

Originally Posted by LCP

[*]Assuming you have players who like to roleplay, killing Comrades gives you a way to bring across the brutality of war without necessarily killing a PC every other session. Get that Gaunt's Ghosts feeling, like you said - just as you're getting to like Private Johnson, BAM, bullet to the face.

I have characters who like to roleplay but developing your own character is generally the extent of what they want to do. Needing to worry about your sidekick. If your putting the burden on the GM to develop the character into something interesting that gets difficult when your running 5 players with 5 comrades all who dont really have a high life expectancy AND needing to make them care about the regiment, and their commanders, and the scenario, and the campaign goals, and the scenario-specific NPCs. Its fairly easy to see where a GM is going to decide to skip.

The most I saw was a fairly one demonsional personality or a certain schtck one had. Like the comrade who got the friendly personality with the PC playing as a cold, hardened storm trooper. The storm trooper would walk in, fail an intimidate check and the comrade would be standing there gossiping with the random NPC. Sure it got a laugh or two but not enough to make anyone blink an eye when the commisar dropped him to heal the storm trooper.

Originally Posted by LCP

On a similar note, Commissars and their field executions would be unplayable party-poopers if not for Comrades.

They are still party-poopers as they now gun down someones 5% boost. I mean the bolt pistol of healing power the Commissar gets is hilarious and perhaps my favourite thing in the book its a very desperate scenario that usually involves 'is this character dead next turn? - Shoot his comrade'.

Originally Posted by LCP

It's worth pointing out that a Comrade is only a discrete NPC for narrative purposes, and for the purposes of getting shot; in all other respects, they basically function like a nifty skill or talent for the PC (and all the other titles have plentiful supplies of such unique abilities too). They're also comrades, not minions - while they might be junior members of the squad, they're there to fight alongside the PCs, not do exactly what they say in every situation.

Thats why I described them as 'MOOKs' they are subject to the whims of the fight. Minions are far more powerful given they can be space marines....

Also its really hard to operate with an independent mindset in the Imperial Guard unless your in one of the luckier units or your commanding officer/commissar isnt giving your direct orders. I dont know anyone who is going to be arguing with a commissar or half the classes out there. Its tough to have that make sense.

Originally Posted by LCP

I guess what I'm saying is I think they work well in context. I wouldn't port them across to Dark Heresy, but if I was playing Only War, I would definitely use them. And I don't think that automatically makes the PCs into big-headed action heroes.

As I said, I was exaggerating a little. The way the system works you are inherently more powerful than your average Dark Heresy character. Your equipment is better, your stats are better. Sure your supposed to be rank 3 or so (1000xp I think it was) but when your potentially starting with a heavy bolter (which is kinda hilarious) and a 50 BS things get scary fast.

Originally Posted by LCP

I don't think anyone's saying you should port the rules over wholesale and try to play Dark Heresy using the Only War rulebook (or any other title). What I think the previous poster was saying is that parts of the basic rules (specifically, combat - stuff like combat actions, semi/full auto fire, righteous fury etc.) have been refined in ways that are independent of the genre changes between the different titles, and that the earlier games could benefit from porting those parts back. I'd agree with that position; the only reason I don't do it myself is laziness/a dislike of excessive house rules.

Lets get the quote:

Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx

Only War is the most refined of the systems, being the newest... you might want to look at that one first; you should probably let that be your first impression! The next closest is Black Crusade.

He was suggesting that it was the system that was best served for being the first impression to the games. I was arguing that all are radically different and the styles of games are so different they are not directly compatable.

I would argue heavily against converting at all unless you have a very strong understanding of what systems are causing what within your group. Some are personal prefence things sure but some systems have very critical roles to play. Lets look at the critical table rules. They are designed to get worse the lower on the table you go but with the 1d5 roll instead of bonus damage for a righteous fury you need to realise the a critical hit goes from likely death to 1 round of issues. This makes the fatigue rolls somewhat pointless as they dont usually matter except under rare circumstances. The stat drops and potential fire/knockdown/bleeding/useless limb for 5s are nice but since your target is just as likely to be healthy you need the stun hits. That makes 3 or 4 depending on the tables the optimal roll as a stun as next turn you can kill the target with ease given the bonus.

Now if you like that, thats fine but you need to understand that this change is going to make the push to stun targets as your goal. This is a very small thing (and isolated so I can talk about it here) but its one of these impacts which dont really go in as you notice it without playing both systems and realising whats going on.

Originally Posted by LCP

I think another thing people generally like to port back is the overhaul of the psychic system - DH is the only title that still uses power dice instead of focus power tests. I don't personally have an opinion on that; I haven't got much experience GMing for psykers, and I don't have one in my current group so it's not much of an issue for me at the moment. It seems like it'd be a more effort-intensive thing to do, though, because you'd have to modify the individual powers as well as the overall rules.

This is a system that really impacts playstyle. In Black Crusade, Only War using pschic powers is trivial. I've always seen psykers as really incredibly dangerous things unless they get particularly powerful and can control it. While this a personal thing the resulting change is that you make psykers a whole different type of beast in Dark Heresy. No long are they something you should treat with caution, they should be casually jedi mind tricking everyone they see to get past the problem.

Psykers are not only designed for the universe to hate them and all the roleplaying issues that come with that but they are literally ticking time bombs. While the Dark Heresy system isnt perfect you implement the focus test system instead psykers get a large number of very minor powers which can be used at will with zero risk. +30 to your BS, Free reroll, free +10 to a test, jam enemy weapon, fear 1, phase shifting godmode from all non-psykers . How high do you set this? If you set it low then its designed that psykers should be casually throwing abilities around. If you set it high then the psyker is essentially gimped until they get their big powers and you skip the little ones altogether.

The way the other systems worked is that they drop the little powers altogether. Starting power for a psyker in Only War? SMITE! The iconic ability of Space Marine Librarians and its pretty powerful. For Rogue Trader it forces the low level powers by setting up an advancement path for taking the lower tier powers. So you have Delude -> Compel -> Dominate.

To solve it we work without a base and requires you to understand the fundamental role the Psyker is supposed to play in the party. The role of the 'last desperate effort'. The psyker can wizard his way to solve most problems but it always comes with a big danger so this naturally leads the party to want to try things in the mundane way before they pull the pin on the grenade and hope it works. Given the high failure rate of Dark Heresys skill system, this gives many opportunities for the psyker to save the day but often it creates far worse scenarios which give the opportunity for the players to get out of jail so to speak.

Scenario wise you need to get into a building. The assassin gets caught failing a silent move check. The techpriest cant hack the door and the Scum fails to lie his way in. This falls to the psyker to use a power to get inside. The assassin is caught and the players need to act fast to save them. So on a success or fail the psyker cna save him. If the power works no problems the party can get in. If it fails all the perils of the warp and many of the minor powers create fairly big diversions that atleast get people moving. It resolves the issue and brings up a new one. This is a very strong mechanic that works with investigation and non-combat like scenarios.

In Rogue Trader your not supposed to use an Astropath in that particular role, they are specialist spellcasters that can pick field and master it with a big weakness. They can force their way in as the talky character with the mind control powers and it makes far more sense for their powers to not break the environment so liberally. Again, not inherently wrong to do either but they will change how a psyker behaves if you change the system around, im sure it can be done but its a lot more work restructuring the system than simply changing power values.

Originally Posted by LCP

I'd like to see an exact example of what you're talking about; not because I doubt your general point, but because it's difficult to tell how much of it is hyperbole. But more importantly, you can do the same in pretty much every title. They are all rules-heavy RPGs with arbitrarily numerous combinations of skills, equipment and other stuff.

Funnily enough I find something like D&D 3.5 to be far more rules heavy and too complicated for me to want to play. Here everything is numbers 1-100, higher is better.

A simple example again is the +10 on a base shot rule Black Crusade introduced. This was designed to make the charactes from that system inherently more powerful with a move and shoot approach that wasnt too big a deal as there were very few accurate weapons and they would have trouble dealing with Power Armour and space marine toughness bonuses.

Import that rule to Only war and you get an interesting issue. I call it the assassin syndrome. This stems from the 70 to hit assassin you can reasonably make as a Dark Heresy starting character.

You take a 40 BS starting Assassin (it might take some xp to boost it by +5 or a background package or Forge World Origin etc but you can get this without too much fuss) you then take a hunting rifle as your starting weapon for the Accurate +20 aim and buy a red dot sight. This results in 70 to hit (40 +20 Accurate +10 Red Dot) = 70. Not too hard to pull off. You play it smart and you fight at 70m or less and your at 80 to hit. With Only War rules you put on an additional +10 for single shot for 80-90% to hit with bonus damage potential.

This is almost no effort involved and you have made an almost perfect marksman. This is kinda nuts to begin with but the important thing to note it that with the +10 bonus, you dont need a 40 BS anymore, only a 30BS. The same as your average guardsman so you buy two things for your regiment as standard kit. Take Sharpshooters Doctrine, Long Las and Red Dot Sights (20 of your 30 points) and you too can have an entire imperial guard regiment shooting for 70% (60% for called shots with free deadeye). Now of course all this is up to GM but its not too crazy a unit as your the regiment where all the snipers are called from. Ultimately not a huge issue but back in Dark Heresy land.

Every player wants to get an accurate weapon asap (hunting rifles being extremely common and fairly cheap). With base bonus being bumped from +20 to +30 for aim + single shot you suddenly make the disable, half blind, aging adept with a 22 BS into a better than 50% odds to to hit anything within a 150m and 60% for a 75m (where most fights are). In my personal opinion this is extremely dumb and it turns every scenario into thinking 'how do we get into a position to murder everyone?' Hostile NPCs suddenly become far more deadly with a flat +20 instead of a +10 hit meaning the crack-head nobody with a revolver and 20BS is now hitting on a 40%. Sure you can work to create scenarios that try to limit this but its a very simple change to behaviour patterns that compeltely screws with how combat is feared in that system. Additionally this is compounded with full auto being negated for hitting purposes, the relatively cheap access for Man-Stopper rounds so a hunting rifle becomes a long-term item, the way melee doesnt carve through everyones defensive reactions etc etc.

That little +10 seems small but has massive repercussions. Not everyone is going to be doing the above but it can happen and you need to be working to think about how these system interact. Im frankly terrible at optimising and I feel someone in the other subforums would make something far cheaper and far more insane that what I just did but the point is still there.

tl; dr

Changing a system without understanding the internals of the system of equals a more broken system.

Originally Posted by LCP

So yes, it wouldn't surprise me that much if you could find a way to make an Only War character who could fight a space marine. It would surprise me more if you could show there was no Dark Heresy exploit that could do the same thing. Either way, with reasonable players and a sensible GM, these things aren't big problems when you're playing the game for fun.

Theres many MANY Dark Heresy balance problems but the issue im presenting is that you dont want to tell a new player 'these rules are better use them instead!' You want to let the player and their group try something out and if THEY have the problem then they can be advised to solve it. I don't like this pre-emptive problem solving and I find it creates bizzare situations like the Dark Heresy game where everyone has 10,000 thrones or the Rogue Trader game where the crew doesnt have a ship and its just the players running around doing stuff. Its better to present what the system DOES and DOES NOT do well and the system's style. They are not interchangable without work and are too different to say 'this rule system is newer so its better for that other game'.

[LCP]

*shrug*

I think we don't have many meaningful disagreements. I don't want to get bogged down in point-by-point statements of personal preference, so I'll just respond to two things:

To-hit bonuses: in my experience, this isn't as big a deal as it appears to be in yours. In the super-sniper example you give... well, yes, that PC is a sniper. They've dedicated their build to being good at rolling to hit with a rifle, I don't have much of a problem with them having a 70% chance of success, and I don't see much of a difference between 70% and 80%. The damage their shot will do will still be limited by the killy-ness of the gun in question.

In my game (using unaltered DH rules), there's a Scum (Metallican Gunslinger) and a Guardsman who can both stack bonuses to get into the 70-80% to hit range. They provide the most ranged punch in the group, but they haven't forced me to radically change the dynamic of my encounters. There's a lot of stuff that happens in cramped areas, or darkness, or areas with a lot of cover (which I think is often the default for Dark Heresy - hive cities and ruins and such), and they still have to do a lot of running away.

I also don't have much trouble with some bog-standard Imperial citizen having a ~40% chance to hit. This may be to do with the fact that I run PBP games, so I like combats to be rare and exciting - round upon round of people just missing each other is tedious and undramatic. Part of the appeal of the system DH is built from (the mechanics taken from WFRP) is that a mook with a handgun (or in the case of WFRP, a goblin with an arrow) is still something of a threat regardless of your 'level'. If you don't want to get hit, don't stand around when bullets are flying.

The deadliness of combats is, I suppose, just a personal preference.

On Only War: I haven't run a game of it yet, I was just impressed by my first reading of the rules. I defer to your experience, but at the same time I'd still like to give it a try!

I think in my case, if I get the chance to run such a campaign, I'd like to have a strong input at character creation myself (which the rulebook does mention) - defining things about the regiment and recruiting specific roles for the squad, rather than taking the chance of landing up with the kind of Ogryn/Commissar/Psyker setup you mention. I also think I'd be doing a fair bit of planning and prep-work regarding the Comrades, fleshing them out as NPCs and giving them roles in the story beyond being walking +5s for the players. Mainly so I could then kill them, of course.

Guess I'll have to wait and see, though: right now I am running a DH game and a WFRP game (linked in my sig), and past experiments have indicated that this is the limit to the number of games I can manage at once.

[king.com]

Originally Posted by LCP

To-hit bonuses: in my experience, this isn't as big a deal as it appears to be in yours. In the super-sniper example you give... well, yes, that PC is a sniper. They've dedicated their build to being good at rolling to hit with a rifle, I don't have much of a problem with them having a 70% chance of success, and I don't see much of a difference between 70% and 80%. The damage their shot will do will still be limited by the killy-ness of the gun in question.

In my game (using unaltered DH rules), there's a Scum (Metallican Gunslinger) and a Guardsman who can both stack bonuses to get into the 70-80% to hit range. They provide the most ranged punch in the group, but they haven't forced me to radically change the dynamic of my encounters. There's a lot of stuff that happens in cramped areas, or darkness, or areas with a lot of cover (which I think is often the default for Dark Heresy - hive cities and ruins and such), and they still have to do a lot of running away.

I also don't have much trouble with some bog-standard Imperial citizen having a ~40% chance to hit. This may be to do with the fact that I run PBP games, so I like combats to be rare and exciting - round upon round of people just missing each other is tedious and undramatic. Part of the appeal of the system DH is built from (the mechanics taken from WFRP) is that a mook with a handgun (or in the case of WFRP, a goblin with an arrow) is still something of a threat regardless of your 'level'. If you don't want to get hit, don't stand around when bullets are flying.

The deadliness of combats is, I suppose, just a personal preference.

I really like the deadliness of the combat but when a rank 1 character can beceom a completely perfect marksman without putting anything into it, I feel it gets kinda silly. I dont mind a dedicated build doing something but this is completely trivial to achieve, thats what bothers me so much.

As for straight 40% chance to hit for a regular person who has never held a gun before, I think thats kinda silly. Average BS for someone with basic training is 30BS for 50% chance to hit. It makes those combats where the players dont have armour kinda risky. I like lethality and really like how it stands now where its about miss, miss, miss, hit and then everything falls apart. With the current 50% chance average for players and 40% chance for NPCs, with a party of 5 players and equal number of hostiles, your easily having all that occur in one round. This usually makes combat last 3-4 rounds. With the +10 modifier I found combat drops to 1-2 rounds without execessive amounts of hostiles.

Originally Posted by LCP

On Only War: I haven't run a game of it yet, I was just impressed by my first reading of the rules. I defer to your experience, but at the same time I'd still like to give it a try!

I think in my case, if I get the chance to run such a campaign, I'd like to have a strong input at character creation myself (which the rulebook does mention) - defining things about the regiment and recruiting specific roles for the squad, rather than taking the chance of landing up with the kind of Ogryn/Commissar/Psyker setup you mention. I also think I'd be doing a fair bit of planning and prep-work regarding the Comrades, fleshing them out as NPCs and giving them roles in the story beyond being walking +5s for the players. Mainly so I could then kill them, of course.

Guess I'll have to wait and see, though: right now I am running a DH game and a WFRP game (linked in my sig), and past experiments have indicated that this is the limit to the number of games I can manage at once.

I feel I need to say again, I DO NOT THINK ITS A BAD GAME. I think like the other 4 systems it has problems. The game your describing is what I wish the game was. A system about everyone being a regular guardsman, you start with access to skills from basic training as a conscript and get to pick up skills, custom kit modifications and specialisation training as you advance. I feel like that would have been able to provide a far more unique experience.

[DontEatRawHagis]

What classes are in "Only War"?

Friend of mine likes Storm Troopers in the Tabletop. Are they represented in "Only War"?

I know from the free RPG:

• Comissars
• Weapon Specialist
• Ogryn
• Rattlings
• Tech Priest
• Heavy Gunner

[WitchSlayer]

Originally Posted by DontEatRawHagis

What classes are in "Only War"?

Friend of mine likes Storm Troopers in the Tabletop. Are they represented in "Only War"?

I know from the free RPG:

• Comissars
• Weapon Specialist
• Ogryn
• Rattlings
• Tech Priest
• Heavy Gunner

2 types of classes 1 is specialist who starts with slightly less XP and with some more stuff, they are:
-Storm Trooper
-Commissar
-Ogryn
-Ratling
-Tech Priest
-Psyker
-Priest

Then there are standard guardsman, they are
-Sergeant
-Medic
-Heavy Gunner
-Weapons Specialist
-Operator

[Cikomyr]

Hi people. Does anyone have suggestion as to what I should requisition next for my Ascension Adept Sorcerer?

He already got a Daemonshotgun, Inquisitorial Power Armors with Hexagrammatic Wards, Lathe Sword with Pentagrammatic Wards, clothes with Pentagrammatic Wards (-60 to Daemon WP tests), Best Quality Auger Auspex Implant, Codex Malificums (greater), Warp Focus...

Beside more implants from Rogue Traders, I am not sure what else I am left to requisition. Maybe contacts?

[The Glyphstone]

A pony? You're an Ascension Sorcerer, your power curve has already gone asymptotic.

[Cikomyr]

Wait, there are Ascension sorcery powers?! Which book?

[shadow_archmagi]

Are there any rules restricting what you can or can't parry? The "Any melee attack" seems a bit odd, since it suggests that when a Wraithlord uses its giant robot karate, a decent swordsman can swat it aside most of the time.

[Maugan Ra]

Originally Posted by Cikomyr

Hi people. Does anyone have suggestion as to what I should requisition next for my Ascension Adept Sorcerer?

He already got a Daemonshotgun, Inquisitorial Power Armors with Hexagrammatic Wards, Lathe Sword with Pentagrammatic Wards, clothes with Pentagrammatic Wards (-60 to Daemon WP tests), Best Quality Auger Auspex Implant, Codex Malificums (greater), Warp Focus...

Beside more implants from Rogue Traders, I am not sure what else I am left to requisition. Maybe contacts?

Oh, the Puritans must hate you

Actually, I'm moderately surprised you're not already dead.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Take some minions to boost your sorcery chorus or something along the lines, Cikomyr. Put greater daemons into your daemonic weapons. Hell, build yourself an weapon that have 666 blood-letters inside ? Forced to listen Imperial most famous-for-his-torture-like-voice singer all day for the slightest disobedience ?

Pony is a good option, if it is something properly awesome.

Lastly, you can try bugging GM about Elite Advances so you could kick ass like Pei Mei.