Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Zaq

Those are some . . . deceptively restrictive prereqs. Getting in here is harder than it looks, at least if you're trying to do anything interesting.

You might note that the example Justiciar, Sharsek, (Complete Warrior, pages 48-49) is illegal because he fails to meet the entry qualifications for the prestige class. Rangers don't get Gather Information as a class skill, so at Ranger 6 Sharsek can have a maximum of (6 + 3)/2 = 4½ ranks. 5 ranks are required for Justiciar entry. The City Slicker feat (Races of Destiny, page 150) could fix that problem.

[Careless]

Edit: Thank you Menteith

God, I'm so out of my depth here, this is going to be fun.

[Menteith]

Careless, you might want to PM those questions to the chairman and delete your post, though I can answer one of them for you;

"Does the Urban Tracking Feat count for Justiciar's prerequisites? Not unless someone can link to an official WotC ruling saying it does. " (post #13)

[Kuulvheysoon]

Originally Posted by Venger

each to his own. as with any character who's been around so long, there are a lot of writers who've done him, not all of them well. it's really like reading a different character when different writers work on him, so it's all about finding one you like. obviously a high degree of subjectivity is involved.

these skills are really killing me. I especially like the "multiclass note" that tells us pallies can continue advancing. In a class that requires 3 skills they do not have as class skills, and requires 2 feats they have no use for

Funny enough, it doesn't bother me as much as a class like, say, Knight of the Chalice, which requires spellcasting to get in.... then provides it's own casting.

THE HUMANITY!

[Amphetryon]

Please refrain from listing entry methods into the PrC, as they could both count as speculation and negatively impact an entry's score with appearances of unoriginal concept.

Thanks.

[Venger]

Originally Posted by Amphetryon

Please refrain from listing entry methods into the PrC, as they could both count as speculation and negatively impact an entry's score with appearances of unoriginal concept.

Thanks.

edited my original post. sorry about that, just joining in on the talk about the PrC, didn't mean to spoil.

Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon

Funny enough, it doesn't bother me as much as a class like, say, Knight of the Chalice, which requires spellcasting to get in.... then provides it's own casting.

THE HUMANITY!

oh, man, those really grind my gears too. sometimes you get nar demonbinder though, so they're not all bad

[Draz74]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

You might note that the example Justiciar, Sharsek, (Complete Warrior, pages 48-49) is illegal because he fails to meet the entry qualifications for the prestige class. Rangers don't get Gather Information as a class skill, so at Ranger 6 Sharsek can have a maximum of (6 + 3)/2 = 4½ ranks. 5 ranks are required for Justiciar entry.

Huh, so apparently WotC does know about Dusk Giant/Inspire Greatness TO cheese, after all ...

[Venger]

Originally Posted by Draz74

Huh, so apparently WotC does know about Dusk Giant/Inspire Greatness TO cheese, after all ...

I feel like I'm missing the joke. I'm aware of the dusk giant trick, but what does "sharshek" have to do with that?

[Narsis]

hmm...i have a couple ideas. and one that should definitely be unique.

[Feytalist]

Woo boy. Justiciar. Somehow I was under the impression that it was already used as an ingredient in another competition? I suppose I was wrong.

I actually have one lying around somewhere, used in an old campaign of mine. I might just go dust him off. He was singularly useless though, if I recall. Although I do have an exam coming up in two weeks. Sigh. Damn real life.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Originally Posted by Venger

I feel like I'm missing the joke. I'm aware of the dusk giant trick, but what does "sharshek" have to do with that?

Sharshek is the sample NPC Justiciar presented in Complete Warrior. Who incidentally cannot qualify when he enters the class.

[Dusk Eclipse]

To further elaborate, Dusk Giant is a creature from Heroes of Horror who has an ability called Cannibalize (IIRC) which allows them to eat sentinent creatures and increase their HD momentariliy, Polymorphing into one would allow you to break some level-based caps such as maximum skill points per level, which would allow Sharshek to get the required ranks in Sense motive despite being cross-class for most of his levels.

[Venger]

Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon

Sharshek is the sample NPC Justiciar presented in Complete Warrior. Who incidentally cannot qualify when he enters the class.

Nope, I was clear on that, as I was on him not qualifying for justiciar. Honestly, I just assume sample characters don't qualify until I see explicit proof to the contrary rather than the other way around since it's so common.

Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse

To further elaborate, Dusk Giant is a creature from Heroes of Horror who has an ability called Cannibalize (IIRC) which allows them to eat sentinent creatures and increase their HD momentariliy, Polymorphing into one would allow you to break some level-based caps such as maximum skill points per level, which would allow Sharshek to get the required ranks in Sense motive despite being cross-class for most of his levels.

Oh, now I understand what you guys were talking about. Polymorphing does indeed give the cannibalize ability, which is bafflingly sorted under special attacks instead of special qualities.

However, dusk giant does call out the specific benefits you get from your extra HD: str, con, NA, hp, BA, saves, and feats. it doesn't mention skills, though the sample greater and lesser have a lot more skills. are they capable of advancing and gaining HD normally? do they gain skills anyway as a normal part of gaining hD?

this trick is indeed pretty hilarious, and seems much in the spirit of Do the Wight Thing to get rid of troublesome racial HD.

it's also nice to know that even WotC ignores that whole "if you lose the prereqs, you retroactively unqualify for a PrC" that CWar introduced.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Originally Posted by Venger

Nope, I was clear on that, as I was on him not qualifying for justiciar. Honestly, I just assume sample characters don't qualify until I see explicit proof to the contrary rather than the other way around since it's so common.



Oh, now I understand what you guys were talking about. Polymorphing does indeed give the cannibalize ability, which is bafflingly sorted under special attacks instead of special qualities.

However, dusk giant does call out the specific benefits you get from your extra HD: str, con, NA, hp, BA, saves, and feats. it doesn't mention skills, though the sample greater and lesser have a lot more skills. are they capable of advancing and gaining HD normally? do they gain skills anyway as a normal part of gaining hD?

Yep, all monster gain Skills if they increase in HD, since it isn't explicitly mentioned that you don't, you do.

this trick is indeed pretty hilarious, and seems much in the spirit of Do the Wight Thing to get rid of troublesome racial HD.
IIRC Dusk Giant need to cannibalize constantly or they revert to their lesser versions, can someone with HoH at hand check for me please?

it's also nice to know that even WotC ignores that whole "if you lose the prereqs, you retroactively unqualify for a PrC" that CWar introduced.
It is a debated ruled, and from my reading it only applies to classes in CWar and CArc, so people should take that into account in this particular IC.

Answers in bold.

[Venger]

Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse

Answers in bold.

good to know you get skills too

I have HoH. you need to cannibalize every day (not constantly) or you lose 1 HD/day. I have also seen that ruling applied in IC.

[Uhtred]

So I have never entered one of these before, and I admit that lawful characters are not traditionally my baliwick, but I think I have a viable build for this class. Is it strictly based on levels and feats and features and backstory, or am I equipping the character as well? If so, do I just use the WBL chart in the DMG and update his equipment every level?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Originally Posted by Uhtred

So I have never entered one of these before, and I admit that lawful characters are not traditionally my baliwick, but I think I have a viable build for this class. Is it strictly based on levels and feats and features and backstory, or am I equipping the character as well? If so, do I just use the WBL chart in the DMG and update his equipment every level?

You don't have to equip it all (in fact if your character is reliant on a particular magic item, you will likely get penalized by the judges); but you can and generally it is useful to proved an idea of good items for the build (for example if your build uses Hexblade curse, you can mention that Hexbands would make the build stronger)

[Venger]

Originally Posted by Uhtred

So I have never entered one of these before, and I admit that lawful characters are not traditionally my baliwick, but I think I have a viable build for this class. Is it strictly based on levels and feats and features and backstory, or am I equipping the character as well? If so, do I just use the WBL chart in the DMG and update his equipment every level?

welcome to the contest! hope you enjoy your stay.

go to the first post and look at some of the earlier entries to see what's expected and check out the chart.

you're expected to give levels, skills, feats, features, and backstory, as laid out on the chart in the OP.

you don't need to give a complete breakdown of every piece of equipment that your guy/gal has, and that is in fact discouraged for taking forever to read and having your character rely on gear rather than class features (thus showing off how cool the SI is) it also assumes WBL, which some judges take umbrage with

as long as your build doesn't rely on a specific piece of equipment to be functional at all, there's nothing wrong with listing a piece of equipment or two under an adaptation/notes section.

don't give an equipment list at every level, it'll take forever and lose you a ton of points.

[OMG PONIES]

I'll be participating...for great justice! Whether it's as a competitor or judge only time will tell.

[eggs]

If a piece of gear your character character relies on, or that makes a nice combination with your build's features, definitely mention it. Or if your build relies on doing something unintuitive, mention that (like primarily boosting Wisdom instead of Strength on your Paladin).

But if it's just the Bag of Tricks picked as a whimsical toy, the Cloak of Resistance that every character is obligated to wear or a magic sword whose specific enhancements don't really matter, you don't need to list that, it's probably not worth mentioning.

[123456789blaaa]

I'm just throwing a question out here but what do you guys think makes a good/bad SI? Personally speaking, many of my least favorite competitions have had SI"s with lots of 1/day SLA's so that might be something.

[Dusk Eclipse]

IMO unique (Blade Bravo) or customizable abilities (Assassin), otherwise they tend to pretty much look the same (see AotS which had a lot of fear stacking).

[Venger]

Originally Posted by 123456789blaaa

I'm just throwing a question out here but what do you guys think makes a good/bad SI? Personally speaking, many of my least favorite competitions have had SI"s with lots of 1/day SLA's so that might be something.

I would agree with this. Stuff like stonelord is (to me) very difficult to optimise, since even though you may be able to boost its SLAs, they're still 1/day. I personally like the classes that you look at and say "wow. I wish I could play one of those, if only x were different"

it tends to be ones with really interesting flavor behind them, even if the mechanics are a little lacking. acolyte is a good example of this. it is one of the SLAs=class features holdovers from tome and blood, but the idea of binding a fiend to your skin is so awesome that I'd always liked the idea even if mechanically it didn't do a lot.

[eggs]

Class features that involve big build-diverging decisions are always more fun than ones that don't (eg. a Fleshwarper with plant grafts is going to be getting different benefits out of the class than a Fleshwarper with yuan-ti grafts; I get much more of a kick out of that than Alienists, all get essentially the same thing).

1/day abilities are usually also a huge turn-off, since it's generally impractical to invest any resources in making them stronger or using them uniquely.

[123456789blaaa]

Originally Posted by eggs

Class features that involve big build-diverging decisions are always more fun than ones that don't (eg. a Fleshwarper with plant grafts is going to be getting different benefits out of the class than a Fleshwarper with yuan-ti grafts; I get much more of a kick out of that than Alienists, all get essentially the same thing).

I dunno about this. In theory it's true but in practise it doesn't seem to work out that way (see the animal lord competition where most of the contestants used snakelord and the mythic exemplar competition where most of the contestants used Imdastri).

Also, fleshwarper doesn't seem like a good secret ingredient to me. Most of the actual abilities are small boring bonuses and what stops people from picking the same best grafts instead of themed ones? After all, one of the abilities of the fleshwarper is to gain access to a multitude of different types of grafts that normally are impossible to access to (for creatures not of a specific type).

[Menteith]

- Classes with unique mechanics. Shadow Sentinel's resource system is a good example of this.

- Classes that offer choice within themselves. This could be bonus feats, mutually exclusive ability choices, or classes that offer different benefits based on how they're entered.

- Classes without significant entrance requirements. I find that alignment requirements especially give me trouble, as I can have trouble "forcing" an alignment on a character I've envisioned for a mechanical reason.

[Venger]

Originally Posted by Menteith

- Classes with unique mechanics. Shadow Sentinel's resource system is a good example of this.

I agree with this. that's part of what makes jaunter so popular in IC.

Classes that offer choice within themselves. This could be bonus feats, mutually exclusive ability choices, or classes that offer different benefits based on how they're entered.

we saw a fair bit of this in animal lord, and I agree that it's a positive thing.

Classes without significant entrance requirements. I find that alignment requirements especially give me trouble, as I can have trouble "forcing" an alignment on a character I've envisioned for a mechanical reason.

I agree here as well. I hope you don't have too much trouble being lawful for justiciar. for the most part, judges aren't going to say 'you didn't seem very lawful in your backstory, points off'. as long as your alignment restrictions add up, it ought to be fine.

[Amphetryon]

Originally Posted by Menteith

- Classes with unique mechanics. Shadow Sentinel's resource system is a good example of this.

- Classes that offer choice within themselves. This could be bonus feats, mutually exclusive ability choices, or classes that offer different benefits based on how they're entered.

- Classes without significant entrance requirements. I find that alignment requirements especially give me trouble, as I can have trouble "forcing" an alignment on a character I've envisioned for a mechanical reason.

Anyone have a list of PrCs that fit these requirements, without full casting or the popularity that would otherwise make them a poor fit for the point of the Iron Chef (optimizing under-used PrCs)?

[Venger]

Originally Posted by Amphetryon

Anyone have a list of PrCs that fit these requirements, without full casting or the popularity that would otherwise make them a poor fit for the point of the Iron Chef (optimizing under-used PrCs)?

well, as mentioned in the last thread, I think kensai would be kind of fun as an SI. it's got unique capability with its weapon stuff, customization within it, so 2 kensais are very unlikely to look the same, and it doesn't advance casting and isn't widely used. it requires 2 feats, but isn't especially difficult to get into.

the disciples/thralls of x from vile darkness also very rarely see play, and I've always wanted to do something with mammon or grazz't's people.

bloodhound would be fun for the same reason justiciar is fun: unique abilities and deceptively complex criteria to fulfill.

I know it's a little on the bland side, but I actually kind of like yakuza, and think that it's general enough that we could see a lot of different approaches to it

darkrunner is also lackluster in the same way that drow judicator was (to me anyway)

I really like fatemaker, but am not sure if its 10 levels of unique progression would discourage its use as an SI. assassin has that and it got used, so I don't think that'd rule it out entirely. I'm not sure why, but I never see people use fatemakers.

primeval, as discussed last time, is not too great and sees little use, but could be fun, and since everyone would choose their own primeval form, there'd be a lot of differentiation.

twisted lord is a class that I always thought was kind of good, but sees little use due to its obscurity. it's ridiculously easy to qualify for, and is the only class besides exemplar and uncanny trickster I've seen to give 8 points/lvl.

that's about all the 10 level, non-full casting, fun, relatively easy to enter PrCs that haven't been featured on IC I can think of right now. how about other people?

tl;dr:
kensai
thralls/disciples, especially mammon/grazz't
bloodhound
yakuza
darkrunner
fatemaker
primeval
twisted lord

[Amphetryon]

Originally Posted by Venger

tl;dr:
kensai
thralls/disciples, especially mammon/grazz't
bloodhound
yakuza
darkrunner
fatemaker
primeval
twisted lord

Disciple of Dispater gets plenty of discussion.
Now, from those remaining, which comply with Thiago's requirement that they have no association with "fear-stacking" or "Intimidate shenanigans?"