Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

[Venger]

Originally Posted by Amphetryon

Disciple of Dispater gets plenty of discussion.
Now, from those remaining, which comply with Thiago's requirement that they have no association with "fear-stacking" or "Intimidate shenanigans?"

true enough. the others not so much though.

well, none of them, really. some have intimidate, but none really centers around it.

[Amphetryon]

Originally Posted by Venger

true enough. the others not so much though.

well, none of them, really. some have intimidate, but none really centers around it.

That reads to me as "none of the listed SI options will be considered a 'good choice' without complaint." Choosing the Secret Ingredient is fun, isn't it?

[The Dark Fiddler]

Originally Posted by Feytalist

Woo boy. Justiciar. Somehow I was under the impression that it was already used as an ingredient in another competition? I suppose I was wrong.

Don't feel bad, I could've sworn that Iron Chef was already on its fifty-somethingth competition.

[Menteith]

More random PrCs that might be viable candidates;

Shadow Sun Ninja, Valadis Beastkeeper (possibly with changed entry req. to allow for non-Eberron adapations), Soul Eater (with clarification on how it functions), Runescarred Berserker, Ashworm Dragoon, Swiftblade.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Originally Posted by Venger

twisted lord is a class that I always thought was kind of good, but sees little use due to its obscurity. it's ridiculously easy to qualify for, and is the only class besides exemplar and uncanny trickster I've seen to give 8 points/lvl.

that's about all the 10 level, non-full casting, fun, relatively easy to enter PrCs that haven't been featured on IC I can think of right now. how about other people?

The incredibly obscure Scorpion Heritor (Sandstorm) also gets 8+Int skill points/level, as well as full SA.

Off the top of my head I'd love to see Wildrunner (RotW), Shadowmind (CAdv) and Fang of Sseth (SK).

And bonus points for the horrendously bad Knight of the Chalice (CW).

Originally Posted by Menteith

More random PrCs that might be viable candidates;

Shadow Sun Ninja, Valadis Beastkeeper (possibly with changed entry req. to allow for non-Eberron adapations), Soul Eater (with clarification on how it functions), Runescarred Berserker, Ashworm Dragoon, Swiftblade.

Ashworm Dragoon? Come on, that class is actually pretty good. And Swiftblade is actually actually good. Soul Eater's a fairly popular choice as well, so I doubt that one will be a Secret Ingredient anytime soon.

[Amphetryon]

Originally Posted by Menteith

More random PrCs that might be viable candidates;

Shadow Sun Ninja, Valadis Beastkeeper (possibly with changed entry req. to allow for non-Eberron adapations), Soul Eater (with clarification on how it functions), Runescarred Berserker, Ashworm Dragoon, Swiftblade.

Ashworm Dragoon and Swiftblade are both too good/popular to make good choices.

Soul Eater has a huge can of worms with it, in addition to the "fear/debuff stacking shenanigans" complaint.

Runescarred Berserker is hilariously hard to qualify by RAW in 3.5 (as in, you can't, if Curmudgeon's reading of the RAW is correct). Its "separate casting mechanic" is also one which has been specifically requested against of late.

Shadow Sun Ninja also hits the "fear/debuff stacking shenanigans" complaint squarely. While it's the only ToB class I'd personally consider at all for the contest, any ToB class runs the risk of being considered "too good" for the purposes of Iron Chef.

Valadis Beastmaster is a "separate casting mechanic" class, a mechanic which has generated specific calls against it of late. It also shares the issue with RsB of being arguably "too obscure".

[OMG PONIES]

Let's just go back to the method of "whichever PrC will make competitors groan the most."

[Menteith]

I'm suddenly very grateful that I'm not the one who has to choose the ingredients. Thank you Amphetryon!

Additionally, I'm really, really happy with my current build for Justicar. I've got to make sure that I've got Skills squared away, but otherwise, the mechanics of it are set!

[Venger]

Originally Posted by Amphetryon

That reads to me as "none of the listed SI options will be considered a 'good choice' without complaint." Choosing the Secret Ingredient is fun, isn't it?

I don't understand what you mean. could you explain?

I don't think that anyone will look at the list I gave and say "that is going to give us an entry that's all fear stacking"

I certainly don't want people to complain about my secret ingredient suggestions. you're the chairman, so the decision's ultimately up to you. I just thought throwing out a few that complied with Menteith's criteria might give us an impression of what chefs wanted to cook next time around (and what you thought might be fun)

Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon

The incredibly obscure Scorpion Heritor (Sandstorm) also gets 8+Int skill points/level, as well as full SA.

I am a huge fan of scorpion heritor. its tremorsense ability is awesome, and full SA for a 10 lvl prc is unprecedented besides assassin (I think) so that's pretty fun.

I do question your assertion that sandstorm is more obscure than shattered gates of slaughtersdale though

Originally Posted by Menteith

I'm suddenly very grateful that I'm not the one who has to choose the ingredients. Thank you Amphetryon!

Additionally, I'm really, really happy with my current build for Justicar. I've got to make sure that I've got Skills squared away, but otherwise, the mechanics of it are set!

on that note, my build is done as of yesterday, I just need backstory

[Amphetryon]

Originally Posted by Venger

I don't understand what you mean. could you explain?

At the risk of setting up a recursive loop, I'll have to ask for more information about the source of your confusion before I can explain.

[Venger]

Originally Posted by Amphetryon

Disciple of Dispater gets plenty of discussion.
Now, from those remaining, which comply with Thiago's requirement that they have no association with "fear-stacking" or "Intimidate shenanigans?"

none of the ones I submitted (to my knowledge) have any fear-stacking/intimidate stuff.

Originally Posted by Venger

true enough. the others not so much though.

well, none of them, really. some have intimidate, but none really centers around it.

Originally Posted by Amphetryon

That reads to me as "none of the listed SI options will be considered a 'good choice' without complaint." Choosing the Secret Ingredient is fun, isn't it?

I'm not sure what you mean. do you mean "I don't think you'll be satisfied unless someone complains about the SI you have chosen" ? because that is not true of me. if you meant something else, what is it?

Originally Posted by Amphetryon

At the risk of setting up a recursive loop, I'll have to ask for more information about the source of your confusion before I can explain.

my confusion is regarding your interpretation of my comment. did you feel differently about their intimidate/fear stuff? they're not really centered around it.

as far as runescarred berserker goes, why is it impossible to qualify for? couldn't one take survivor, then buy 2 CC in local (rashemen) ? or is there something I am missing?

[Amphetryon]

Originally Posted by Venger

none of the ones I submitted (to my knowledge) have any fear-stacking/intimidate stuff.

If they have Intimidate as a class skill or another means of debuffing the opponent(s), they're likely to see use for "stacking fear/debuff shenanigans," particularly in the absence of full casting or a similar strong alternative.

I'm not sure what you mean. do you mean "I don't think you'll be satisfied unless someone complains about the SI you have chosen" ? because that is not true of me. if you meant something else, what is it?

That's almost 100% the opposite of what I said; I said that none of the options listed meet the metric of avoiding the complaints leveled against SI choices. I made no comment whatsoever about you, or someone else, not being satisfied until there was a complaint.

my confusion is regarding your interpretation of my comment. did you feel differently about their intimidate/fear stuff? they're not really centered around it.

See above regarding Intimidate. Merely having it on their Class list - and not having a strong incentive in the PrC to ignore it - means that at least one person is likely to build any of those PrCs with Intimidate/fear stacking/debuffing as a theme, which has caused complaint of late.

as far as runescarred berserker goes, why is it impossible to qualify for? couldn't one take survivor, then buy 2 CC in local (rashemen) ? or is there something I am missing?

As of 3.5, it is not technically possible to qualify for the Berserker Lodge feats without the DM houseruling for you, per Curmudgeon's interpretation of the RAW.

[Venger]

Originally Posted by Amphetryon

If they have Intimidate as a class skill or another means of debuffing the opponent(s), they're likely to see use for "stacking fear/debuff shenanigans," particularly in the absence of full casting or a similar strong alternative.

That's almost 100% the opposite of what I said; I said that none of the options listed meet the metric of avoiding the complaints leveled against SI choices. I made no comment whatsoever about you, or someone else, not being satisfied until there was a complaint.

See above regarding Intimidate. Merely having it on their Class list - and not having a strong incentive in the PrC to ignore it - means that at least one person is likely to build any of those PrCs with Intimidate/fear stacking/debuffing as a theme, which has caused complaint of late.

As of 3.5, it is not technically possible to qualify for the Berserker Lodge feats without the DM houseruling for you, per Curmudgeon's interpretation of the RAW.

I understand now. well, like you said, it's awfully hard to find classes with no casting/intimidate.

ah, that explains that. thanks

[ThiagoMartell]

Originally Posted by Amphetryon

Disciple of Dispater gets plenty of discussion.
Now, from those remaining, which comply with Thiago's requirement that they have no association with "fear-stacking" or "Intimidate shenanigans?"

Yay, I'm important!
I think that just having Intimidate as a class skill does not necessarily mean we'll get all builds with fear optimization. Kensai is a bit of a problem since it gets a bonus to Intimidate, so you either use it or lose points, since you're not using all parts of the SI.
From the SI suggested, my personal favorites are Scorpion Heritor, Wildrunner and Shadow Sun Ninja - though I also think Shadow Sun Ninja could be used later, because it will cause a storm of fear-optimized characters.
Amph, congratulations on being this open about suggestions, that's pretty cool.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'm probably going to enter - tweaking a final design before final fluffing.

For all the first-timers out there, here's some advice (set to the 'tune' of a certain commercial)

Spoiler

Start with a simple idea
Think
Think more
Drink coffee
Stop thinking
Start doing
Plot a build
Kill the build
More coffee
Build something totally original
Ok, not that original
Blow-your-mind original
Now it’s time to create something
Do it again and again
That’s good
Kick out the clichés
Call in the fluff writers
Call in the rules guys
Call in the optimizers
Not those optimizers
Those Optimizers
Blow off lunch
Blow off dinner
Blow off weekends
SLEEP
...
Ok, that’s enough sleep
More coffee
Build a preliminary build
Mold it
Shape it
Hate it
Start over
Build another preliminary
Mold it
Shape it
Love it
That’s good
More coffee
Give it some kick
Give it more power
More power
Never too much power
Base Attack of +15
No, +16
Make it in less than 20 levels
Oh no, the Rules laywers
You can’t do that.
Kick out the Rules lawyers!
Playtest the build.
Tweak
Tweak
TWEAK
TWEAK
STOP!
Get a second opinion.
Call the critics.
Call your friends.
Get a celebrity endorser.
Huh
No
No
No
No
Yes. He’s perfect.

Originally Posted by Amphetryon

I am?

Yes, you are.
Making an ICO winning build.
It’s that easy.

[Kazyan]

Wow. It fits! So that means somebody else is probably using it. Maybe? And it's not nearly...but it fits! *pulls hair*

[Venger]

Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell

Yay, I'm important!
I think that just having Intimidate as a class skill does not necessarily mean we'll get all builds with fear optimization. Kensai is a bit of a problem since it gets a bonus to Intimidate, so you either use it or lose points, since you're not using all parts of the SI.
From the SI suggested, my personal favorites are Scorpion Heritor, Wildrunner and Shadow Sun Ninja - though I also think Shadow Sun Ninja could be used later, because it will cause a storm of fear-optimized characters.
Amph, congratulations on being this open about suggestions, that's pretty cool.

hey, you were the one who said what we were all thinking, that entitles you to a little recognition. too bad you didn't like any of my suggestions, maybe next time. I'd kind of like to roll up a scorpion heritor as well. that bonus against mind affecting is pretty sweet as far as feat taxes go.

I really like twisted lord. I love the silly troll face he's making, I'm sure there'd be some weird things people would do with that class.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon

I'm probably going to enter - tweaking a final design before final fluffing.

For all the first-timers out there, here's some advice (set to the 'tune' of a certain commercial)

Spoiler

Start with a simple idea
Think
Think more
Drink coffee
Stop thinking
Start doing
Plot a build
Kill the build
More coffee
Build something totally original
Ok, not that original
Blow-your-mind original
Now it’s time to create something
Do it again and again
That’s good
Kick out the clichés
Call in the fluff writers
Call in the rules guys
Call in the optimizers
Not those optimizers
Those Optimizers
Blow off lunch
Blow off dinner
Blow off weekends
SLEEP
...
Ok, that’s enough sleep
More coffee
Build a preliminary build
Mold it
Shape it
Hate it
Start over
Build another preliminary
Mold it
Shape it
Love it
That’s good
More coffee
Give it some kick
Give it more power
More power
Never too much power
Base Attack of +15
No, +16
Make it in less than 20 levels
Oh no, the Rules laywers
You can’t do that.
Kick out the Rules lawyers!
Playtest the build.
Tweak
Tweak
TWEAK
TWEAK
STOP!
Get a second opinion.
Call the critics.
Call your friends.
Get a celebrity endorser.
Huh
No
No
No
No
Yes. He’s perfect.

Yes, you are.
Making an ICO winning build.
It’s that easy.

Heh, that reads like a George Carlin bit.

R.I.P. George. He'd roll over in his grave if he heard somebody say that...... and wasn't dead.

[OMG PONIES]

Originally Posted by Venger

I do question your assertion that sandstorm is more obscure than shattered gates of slaughtersdale though

Wow, that book is obscure! Even more so than Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde .

Originally Posted by Venger

I really like twisted lord. I love the silly troll face he's making, I'm sure there'd be some weird things people would do with that class.

There was an entry in Round X, I believe (whichever round we did Blade Bravo) that made use of Twisted Lord--I think it was Moudo.

[Amphetryon]

Originally Posted by OMG PONIES

Wow, that book is obscure! Even more so than Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde .



There was an entry in Round X, I believe (whichever round we did Blade Bravo) that made use of Twisted Lord--I think it was Moudo.

Yep. Trust me, I know.

[Venger]

Originally Posted by OMG PONIES

Wow, that book is obscure! Even more so than Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde .

heehee

There was an entry in Round X, I believe (whichever round we did Blade Bravo) that made use of Twisted Lord--I think it was Moudo.

oh, I must've forgotten.

hey, what's the fastest from announcement to submission in iron chef? I tried checking the IC records thread, and I didn't see it there. I was talking about it earlier but have been unsuccessful while looking at the archive.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Originally Posted by Venger

I am a huge fan of scorpion heritor. its tremorsense ability is awesome, and full SA for a 10 lvl prc is unprecedented besides assassin (I think) so that's pretty fun.

I do question your assertion that sandstorm is more obscure than shattered gates of slaughtersdale though

Originally Posted by OMG PONIES

Wow, that book is obscure! Even more so than Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde .

Oh, I didn't mean that It's Hot Outside is obscure - I meant that I've never heard of a build that uses Scorpion Heritor.

[Amphetryon]

Originally Posted by Venger

hey, what's the fastest from announcement to submission in iron chef? I tried checking the IC records thread, and I didn't see it there. I was talking about it earlier but have been unsuccessful while looking at the archive.

We've had one submission in +/- 3 hours, as I recall. It was under Prinny's watch.

[ThiagoMartell]

Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon

Oh, I didn't mean that It's Hot Outside is obscure - I meant that I've never heard of a build that uses Scorpion Heritor.

It's a pretty cool class, I've used it for NPCs a few times. In fact, a themed a whole tribe around it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell

It's a pretty cool class, I've used it for NPCs a few times. In fact, a themed a whole tribe around it.

I've used it in a pbp; but I only had one level and the game died before the first combat was finished. hmmm now I am tempted to build a Scorpion Heritor and submit is as soon as (if) it is revealed as a secret ingredient.

And wow I just checked the Record thread and it went up to ICOCitP XV. Is anyone willing to re-start it?

[OMG PONIES]

Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse

And wow I just checked the Record thread and it went up to ICOCitP XV. Is anyone willing to re-start it?

It's on the list of things I intend to do...right after updating the spreadsheet. TBH, it's fallen off a lot in recent rounds due to being busy with RL.

[DMofDarkness]

Dang... I have the perfect idea for this competition, using almost all of the abilities beautifully, and I just know it's going to be using the same base class as at least 3 other entries. Hopefully the other elements of the build are going to make up in the Originality department somewhat...

[Venger]

Originally Posted by DMofDarkness

Dang... I have the perfect idea for this competition, using almost all of the abilities beautifully, and I just know it's going to be using the same base class as at least 3 other entries. Hopefully the other elements of the build are going to make up in the Originality department somewhat...

well, yeah, a certain base class seems to be coming to the forefront with this SI. darn prereqs.

[Menteith]

I feel confidant that no one else is dumb enough to do what I'm doing.

[mattie_p]

Originally Posted by Menteith

I feel confidant that no one else is dumb enough to do what I'm doing.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I've got a dumb idea too.