Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVII

[Dusk Eclipse]

Originally Posted by DMofDarkness

IIRC, the Psionic Thri-Kreen from the XPH (The version with 2 LA, unlike the 1 LA version in the MM3) had a +30 racial bonus to jump. For some reason, though, they're not in the SRD...

Thri-kreen are product identity an therefore weren't released in the SRD, similar to Illithid Squidly-things.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

If I was going to guess, and I am, I'd say that the kuo-toa's name is probably pronounced blip - plip - plé - ip.

Having to guess at how something is pronounced isn't a good sign towards its being pronouncable

Originally Posted by DMofDarkness

IIRC, the Psionic Thri-Kreen from the XPH (The version with 2 LA, unlike the 1 LA version in the MM3) had a +30 racial bonus to jump. For some reason, though, they're not in the SRD...

Originally Posted by Piggy Knowles

Expanded Psionics Handbook, p214, under Special Qualities.

Why this is in the Special Qualities section, rather than in the Racial Skills section (where they put, for instance, the +4 bonus to Hide checks in sandy settings, is anybody's guess.

Judgment updated.

Originally Posted by DMofDarkness

[EDIT]Odd question: Maneuvers (obviously) aren't listed in the special actions you can use in a grapple. Can you still perform them in a grapple? And can you still sneak attack someone in a grapple if someone is flanking your opponent?

I don't think you'd be able to use the maneuver, no. As for the flanking, I think that the relevant rules here would be:

When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.

[...]

Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can’t flank an opponent.

Since you occupy the same square as somebody you're grappling, under usual circumstances at least (fun fact: two builds explicitly used weapons allowing grappling at a range, but neither used the one included in Complete Warrior, the source of the Secret Ingredient), you won't be flanking them. The rule about creatures with no reach is listed because that's sort of what it's like when you're grappling.

[Kazyan]

Originally Posted by The Dark Fiddler

(fun fact: two builds explicitly used weapons allowing grappling at a range, but neither used the one included in Complete Warrior, the source of the Secret Ingredient)

I considered a build involving Mancatcher TWF (there are ways), thereby double-grappling, but couldn't figure out how to make it work. Not enough room for tricks with the rest of Justiciar.

[Piggy Knowles]

Originally Posted by The Dark Fiddler

The thing you forgot to source, though, was the Master of Shrouds, which is kinda a thing since I have no idea where it's from (remember how I said I didn't expect it? I didn't know it existed until now).

In case you still haven't found a source for Master of Shrouds, it's from Libris Mortis. It also was released as a preview online:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041015b

[Venger]

master of shrouds is on page 47 of libris mortis.

EDIT: ninjaed by like a second. ridiculous.

there's a lot of monsters in this round. that's a bit odd.

[DMofDarkness]

Originally Posted by The Dark Fiddler

I don't think you'd be able to use the maneuver, no. As for the flanking, I think that the relevant rules here would be:



Since you occupy the same square as somebody you're grappling, under usual circumstances at least (fun fact: two builds explicitly used weapons allowing grappling at a range, but neither used the one included in Complete Warrior, the source of the Secret Ingredient), you won't be flanking them. The rule about creatures with no reach is listed because that's sort of what it's like when you're grappling.

Huh. Grappling is odd. It just limits you to those actions? You can't reallocate essentia, change stances, use Swift action discharge spells, activate the contingency you based on doing an odd hand sign, or activate Anklets of Translocation?

Now I understand why people always use Grapplers to take down Wizards...

[EDIT] Also, on Bilblibliip's entry: The Sewerm is from Serpent Kingdoms, page 86, and does have a +16 Grapple check modifier. They also have 17 Strength, despite being small size. Does that strike anyone else as wrong?

[DemonRoach]

Originally Posted by Venger

there's a lot of monsters in this round. that's a bit odd.

TBH, I'm always expecting more weird racial types, if only to nab Originality points. Considering that many tricks and nearly all classes are reasonably known, the easiest way to get a "The hell?!" reaction from a judge is surely to be some variety of 4 headed mini-tarrasque heritage hydra or equivalent thereof.

Curse my home computer melting! My entry easily would've one worst build award! I hadn't Established much beyond being a leap attacking rip off of Randy Savae

[Venger]

Originally Posted by DemonRoach

TBH, I'm always expecting more weird racial types, if only to nab Originality points. Considering that many tricks and nearly all classes are reasonably known, the easiest way to get a "The hell?!" reaction from a judge is surely to be some variety of 4 headed mini-tarrasque heritage hydra or equivalent thereof.

Curse my home computer melting! My entry easily would've one worst build award! I hadn't Established much beyond being a leap attacking rip off of Randy Savae

randy savage would've gotten HM from me.

As stands, I'm calling out sheriff bearclaw as honorable mention.

[mattie_p]

Weird races are always fun. I never seem to end up playing one on in a game due to the almost mandatory LA, and the fact that at low levels (IMO), the savage progression really hinders low level characters. In IC, theoretical survivability vs survivability in a game can be handwaved, to an extent. Also, depending on RP, can really cause problems.

Of course, the tibbet in this competition stood that on its ear.

[OMG PONIES]

Originally Posted by Amphetryon

I thought we'd see more Crimson Scourge this time around, myself.

As did I. Originally, I thought of that and Bloodhound (which seems to be a favorite amongst some IC regulars). However, in reading overthe abilities, both PrCs seemed more redundant with the SI than synergistic.

Originally Posted by DemonRoach

Curse my home computer melting! My entry easily would've one worst build award! I hadn't Established much beyond being a leap attacking rip off of Randy Savae

All it would have taken to nab my HM nomination would have been Favored Enemy: Hulk Hogan.

[Amphetryon]

Responses from contestants and observers to The Dark Fiddler's judgments follow. The Chairman makes no comment on these responses, except as specifically noted.


Sheriff Brearger Bearclaw:

Spoiler

Sheriff Breager Bearclaw requests clarification on The Dark Fiddler's judging, specifically elegance:

Per the glossary, Melee weapons are defined as: A handheld weapon designed for close combat. Natural weapons are not held in hands. This distinction was enough for me to warrant picking up CS, for fear of a harsh ruling by judges that natural weapons were not melee weapons. While natural weapons are defined as used in melee, they are not explicitly called out, RAW, as melee weapons. Chairman's note: Any judge that was that literal on natural weapons would probably get concerns voiced from the Chair.

Regarding non-ingredient levels, specifically swordsage, seems to be called out as "jumping around" in random configurations. The rationale for the swordsage levels, at those specific levels, are to meet initiator level requirements, as specifically called out in the build notes.

I plead guilty in that I did not clarify rationale for the order of paragon levels, but Human 1 is picked up at ECL 2 in order to get search as a class skill, which saves me quite a few cross-class skill points throughout.

Regardless of your decision, thank you for your judging.

Dustie:

Spoiler

Dark Fiddler made a tiny hiccup in his judgement of dustie. He's mixed up the ready and delay actions.

I doubt it will affect his score, but it should probably be pointed out nonetheless.

Bilblibliip:

Spoiler

I feel like I am being punished for using an obscure source, although I don't consider Serpent Kingdom an obscure source. In fact, writing Sewerm d&d in google results on a scribd link to the Serpent Kingdom book (if need be I'll provide the link myself). Similarly the grapple of the Sewerm might be undervalued, since if the Sewerm is grappling an enemy that enemy looses its dexterity bonus against Bilblibliip thus enabling full use of Nonlethal strike (and crippling strike too).

On the name thing, I pronounce it as Bil - Bli - Bli - Ip but my Kuo-toan is a bit rusty

Unspeakable:

Spoiler

Oops about misrepresenting Unspeakable's build under the big text. My bad. I was in the middle of doing...everything...at the time.

So no one else gets confused, the build is Ghost Tibbit Ranger 5/Master of the Unseen Hand 1/Justiciar 10. Not Ghost Tibbit Ranger 6/Justiciar 10.

Doril Shadowbane:

Spoiler

Originality: A paladin isn't exactly unexpected, but I did expect people to stay away from the class for various reasons, so neutral points there. Centaur and Shadowstriker were certainly unexpected, and you also get points for not just treating the Centaur as a mounted warrior who is always mounted. Your backstory, however, is pretty standard fair. Score: 3.5/5

Marked down for backstory, I thought this was a cooking contest not a writing contest.

Elegance:
As I mention elsewhere, your backstory, however, is fairly simple and if anything is a bit lacking. Score: 3.5/5

Oops, I mean marked down twice for backstory.

In addition, the Chairman would appreciate a citation for this rule, quoted from The Dark Fiddler, above:

Since you occupy the same square as somebody you're grappling, under usual circumstances at least (fun fact: two builds explicitly used weapons allowing grappling at a range, but neither used the one included in Complete Warrior, the source of the Secret Ingredient), you won't be flanking them. The rule about creatures with no reach is listed because that's sort of what it's like when you're grappling.

[OMG PONIES]

Final(?) Tallies After One Judge

Entry	Place	Total	Average
Ximen Bao	Gold	17.25	4.3125
Zaroff	Silver	16.25	4.0625
Dustie	Bronze	15.25	3.8125
Doril Shadowbane	Fourth	15	3.75
Alive	Fifth	14.75	3.6875
Armin Long	Sixth	14.25	3.5625
Sixteentoes Componentguarder	Seventh	14	3.5
Bilblibliip	Eighth	13.5	3.375
Sheriff Breagar Bearclaw	Ninth	11.5	2.875

Originally Posted by Amphetryon

Bilblibliip:

Spoiler

I feel like I am being punished for using an obscure source, although I don't consider Serpent Kingdom an obscure source. In fact, writing Sewerm d&d in google results on a scribd link to the Serpent Kingdom book (if need be I'll provide the link myself). Similarly the grapple of the Sewerm might be undervalued, since if the Sewerm is grappling an enemy that enemy looses its dexterity bonus against Bilblibliip thus enabling full use of Nonlethal strike (and crippling strike too).

On the name thing, I pronounce it as Bil - Bli - Bli - Ip but my Kuo-toan is a bit rusty

Please refrain from posting the link to material that violates copyright violations. It is against forum rules, and I don't want any of our chefs getting in trouble with the Law .

Originally Posted by Amphetryon

In addition, the Chairman would appreciate a citation for this rule, quoted from The Dark Fiddler, above:

Are these citations helpful? They're from the SRD sections dealing with grappling and flanking, respectively.

To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.) Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target.
If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1.

When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.

When you move into your opponent's square, you no longer have a point of reference from which to determine opposite borders or opposite corners. Therefore, it seems that you are flanking in the round you initiate a grapple, but not in subsequent rounds if you choose to maintain a grapple.

[Garwain]

no anthropomorphic squids... I'm shocked delighted! When I was planning a build, I tried:

Spoiler

Deadly Hunter Druid 5/Thug or Hit and Run Fighter 2/Dark Hunter 4/Justiciar 8/Exotic Weapon Master 1

with:
- TWF to get more out of crippling
- vow of peace feat (shatter weapons with your chest con !)
- flanking/grappling companion. (Join the grapple when he's down)
- stone shape spell + dark hunter = HiPS
- druid acf for skills (skilled city dweller, urban tracking, etc.)
- exotic weapon master (qualifies through the proficiency with manacles) to reduce TWF penalties.

But in all regards, I think Ximen does what I wanted to do and does it better.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Originally Posted by Amphetryon

Responses from contestants and observers to The Dark Fiddler's judgments follow. The Chairman makes no comment on these responses, except as specifically noted.

And I'm happy to give responses and clarifications.

Sheriff Brearger Bearclaw:

Spoiler

Sheriff Breager Bearclaw requests clarification on The Dark Fiddler's judging, specifically elegance:

Per the glossary, Melee weapons are defined as: A handheld weapon designed for close combat. Natural weapons are not held in hands. This distinction was enough for me to warrant picking up CS, for fear of a harsh ruling by judges that natural weapons were not melee weapons. While natural weapons are defined as used in melee, they are not explicitly called out, RAW, as melee weapons. Chairman's note: Any judge that was that literal on natural weapons would probably get concerns voiced from the Chair.

Regarding non-ingredient levels, specifically swordsage, seems to be called out as "jumping around" in random configurations. The rationale for the swordsage levels, at those specific levels, are to meet initiator level requirements, as specifically called out in the build notes.

I plead guilty in that I did not clarify rationale for the order of paragon levels, but Human 1 is picked up at ECL 2 in order to get search as a class skill, which saves me quite a few cross-class skill points throughout.

Regardless of your decision, thank you for your judging.

The Crimson Scourge level is kind of a black mark, and while I'm sorry that you felt as though you needed to take the level to avoid penalties, I can't just let it go. I'm terribly sorry.

In regards to the configuration of your Swordsage levels, I will amend my judging. It's only .25 points, but every bit helps, no? (And besides, that's all I penalized you for that, anyway.)

Dustie:

Spoiler

Dark Fiddler made a tiny hiccup in his judgement of dustie. He's mixed up the ready and delay actions.

I doubt it will affect his score, but it should probably be pointed out nonetheless.

Noted. Since I didn't actually dock you for the delay/ready thing (which, I'll admit, may not have been clear since I listed it in a long list of things I did dock you slightly for), there's nothing to amend.

Bilblibliip:

Spoiler

I feel like I am being punished for using an obscure source, although I don't consider Serpent Kingdom an obscure source. In fact, writing Sewerm d&d in google results on a scribd link to the Serpent Kingdom book (if need be I'll provide the link myself). Similarly the grapple of the Sewerm might be undervalued, since if the Sewerm is grappling an enemy that enemy looses its dexterity bonus against Bilblibliip thus enabling full use of Nonlethal strike (and crippling strike too).

On the name thing, I pronounce it as Bil - Bli - Bli - Ip but my Kuo-toan is a bit rusty

Your concern about being published for using an obscure source would be valid, if I'd penalized you for it. Closest thing to that is that I had to go off of what you told me, so if you undervalued the Sewerm you lost points. Your point about the grappling is valid, but limited by the fact that your Sewerm's grappling falls off a bit at later levels.

And thank you for your suggested pronunciation.

Doril Shadowbane:
Marked down for backstory, I thought this was a cooking contest not a writing contest.

Really? If this is a cooking contest I'd like my food, then.

I'm sorry if you feel wronged, here, but... well, to continue the metaphor and the reference to Iron Chef, what does it matter if you make the best meal I've ever eaten, but your presentation makes me not want to touch it? A bit extreme (trust me: your presentation did not, in fact, do that), but I personally consider the story a big part of the competition, and an entry.

Look back at my entry for Acolyte of the Skin; the story there is one of the best things I've written, and I'm quite proud of it. Without the story, it's just a Sorcerer/Malconvoker/Acolyte of the Skin. The story makes it The Sacred Demon.

Regardless, I didn't actually penalize you for your backstory, I was merely mentioning it because it kept you from gaining points, like Alive did.

In addition, the Chairman would appreciate a citation for this rule, quoted from The Dark Fiddler, above:

OMG_PONIES said what I would have, did he answer your questions satisfactorily?

[Xodion]

I toyed around with a few ideas, but the genius one I didn't have time to finish in the end started with 'what cool fictional characters (other than Batman) would this class suit?', to which my response was Rorschach. Rogue/Master of Masks/Justiciar - it would have been awesome, if not actually very powerful.

I also tried looking at Mortal Hunter, but there were too many junk feats involved in that build.

[Piggy Knowles]

Originally Posted by Garwain

Deadly Hunter Druid 5/Thug or Hit and Run Fighter 2/Dark Hunter 4/Justiciar 8/Exotic Weapon Master 1

with:
- TWF to get more out of crippling
- vow of peace feat (shatter weapons with your chest con !)
- flanking/grappling companion. (Join the grapple when he's down)
- stone shape spell + dark hunter = HiPS
- druid acf for skills (skilled city dweller, urban tracking, etc.)
- exotic weapon master (qualifies through the proficiency with manacles) to reduce TWF penalties.

I thought about Vow of Peace, and one of the first ideas I had involved it... but unfortunately, both Vow of Peace and Vow of Nonviolence specifically prohibit dealing ability damage to sentient beings...

I do like the use of Dark Hunter, though. It's an always underused PrC, in my opinion!

[The Dark Fiddler]

Having checked over my judgments, I've realized that I penalized Alive, but not Zaroff or Bilblibiip for failing to utilize Ranger spellcasting. As such, I've updated the scores of the latter two.

Gosh, I sure need to do a lot of amendments. This judging thing is tough.

[ThiagoMartell]

I will have my judging up soon-ish.

[Kazyan]

I had a lot of ideas for this one that weren't finished. One of them was an Anthropomorphic Tiger Totemist 4/Umbral Disciple 3/Justiciar 10. Umbral Disciples get a boost to Gather Information from their sept and have a nice skill list, and the Totemist's Girallon Arms would not only improve grapple, but more claws = more Improved Grab chances.

For another, I would have prepared fondue: TO involving Anthropomorphic Tiger, Spirit Bear Totem Barbarian, Bloodstorm Blade, Improved Trip and Cleave could let a Justiciar hogtie everything within throwing distance as a standard action. Throw manacles, trip, get free attack, Improved Grab, rake into hogtie, Cleave out of the free attack from trip to hit the next thing down the line. I'm entirely sure there's a better way to do it.

[Garwain]

Originally Posted by Piggy Knowles

I thought about Vow of Peace, and one of the first ideas I had involved it... but unfortunately, both Vow of Peace and Vow of Nonviolence specifically prohibit dealing ability damage to sentient beings...

Yes, fluff-wise a nice fit, but also not really an option since the vow of nonviolence (prereq) adds +4 to the DC of non-damaging spells, but also special abilities. At first I thought it would also increase the hog-tie special, but that ability states the 'grapple check' as the source for the DC, not the hog-tie itself.

[GreenSerpent]

I had a Monk/Binder/Justicar idea bumping around, somewhat about a monk who was chucked out of his temple from binding spirits to himself and was told if he brought one thousand criminals to justice he could rejoin them.

Involved using Dance of Death (Paimon vestige) and the Justicar's Nonlethal Strike to essentially whirl through a group and kick each of them, doing plenty of nonlethal damage.

Sadly stuff took up my time and I wasn't able to submit it.

EDIT: Perhaps though as everyone seems to require a backstory in the judging Amph should edit that into the initial post, something saying that builds must include a backstory.

[Piggy Knowles]

I was wondering, where does everyone usually look for the images they use with their posts?

I usually think about what I want and then spend a while sifting through either Google Image Search or the WotC website for something that matches, but every now and then I see a really great image used in IC, and it makes me wonder if people drew them on their own or just have some really awesome sources for images.

Also, as a question for the chairman, would you have a problem with two people working on a build together and submitting it as a team?

[Venger]

Originally Posted by Piggy Knowles

I was wondering, where does everyone usually look for the images they use with their posts?

I usually think about what I want and then spend a while sifting through either Google Image Search or the WotC website for something that matches, but every now and then I see a really great image used in IC, and it makes me wonder if people drew them on their own or just have some really awesome sources for images.

Also, as a question for the chairman, would you have a problem with two people working on a build together and submitting it as a team?

dustie's picture came from a drawthread on /tg/ last january, those are a pretty excellent place to start, since drawfriends are rather plentiful and will draw free art to your specifications in order to receive honest peer review from people if you happen to be on the board when a thread is active (at least one usually is) people on them are familiar with D&D terminology and know what characters/races look like, and it's much cheaper and faster than commissioning something.

another popular source is deviantart. D&D and other fantasy things are quite popular there, and you can often find stuff there that's pretty close to the picture you have in mind.

cooking in pairs sounds cool. if the chairman's okay with it, I think it sounds like fun.

[mattie_p]

In the past, when I've submitted a build with an image, I just grab it off a google image search. My bad if breaking the law or whatever, but if it is public, I'll link it.

I am not an artist, so I definitely can't draw my own images, which apparently are almost mandatory, these days.

[Amphetryon]

Originally Posted by Piggy Knowles

I was wondering, where does everyone usually look for the images they use with their posts?

I usually think about what I want and then spend a while sifting through either Google Image Search or the WotC website for something that matches, but every now and then I see a really great image used in IC, and it makes me wonder if people drew them on their own or just have some really awesome sources for images.

Also, as a question for the chairman, would you have a problem with two people working on a build together and submitting it as a team?

Creative Commons is good for images, in my experience.

My concern with 2 contestants sharing a build is the notion of an extra set of eyes giving an unfair advantage, though if a majority supports the idea, I can be persuaded.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Originally Posted by Amphetryon

Creative Commons is good for images, in my experience.

My concern with 2 contestants sharing a build is the notion of an extra set of eyes giving an unfair advantage, though if a majority supports the idea, I can be persuaded.

I've found dA to have some good inspirational stuff.

I'm personally going to vote a big N O on the doubling up of ICO chefs. As in the TV show, there's only room for one chef per kitchen.

[GreenSerpent]

I vote NO as well, same reason as above.

[Garwain]

I vote YES. At this moment, nothing stops you from letting your build being reviewed by peers. In fact, I think I read somewhere that it's recommended.

So if you want to be the sous-chef and for example want the write the backstory or help with the formatting or even put some editorial input in the build mechanics itself, why not?

But do limit the credit to the submitter only (the head chef) and list the others merely as sous-chefs. And ofcourse the sous-chefs should not receive the bragging rights of the trophees.

[Mishkov]

I absolutely loved the cat!

I'm sort of surprised no one went wildshape ranger into master of many forms for the grappling.

Also you can deal nonlethal damage with vow of nonviolence or vow of peace which melds well with justicar, so that could have been an option if people wanted to go the vow of poverty route.

[Piggy Knowles]

Originally Posted by Mishkov

Also you can deal nonlethal damage with vow of nonviolence or vow of peace which melds well with justicar, so that could have been an option if people wanted to go the vow of poverty route.

I mentioned this earlier, but the problem is that dealing ability damage breaks your vow with Vow of Nonviolence/Peace, meaning you wouldn't be able to use one of the Justiciar's best abilities (Crippling Strike).