Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI

[Galloglaich]

From what I understand, the spanning devices break down about as follows:

Light crossbows (yew prod) ('knottelarmbrust')
180-250 lbs draw weight
Spanned by hand

Stirrup crossbows (steel or composite prod) ('stiegelarmbrust')
250 - 350 lbs draw weight
Spanned with stirrup, and / or belt-hook

Stirrup crossbows (steel or composite prod) ('schwer stiegelarmbrust')
350 - 550 lbs draw weight
Spanned with goats-foot, or 'wippe'

'English winder' (steel or composite prod) (' Englischwickler')
500 -1500 lbs
Large, spanned with windlass

'German Winder' / 'Stinger' (' Stetchel / schwer arbalest')
800 - 1200 lbs
Small, spanned with cranequin


The price ranged from about 1/5 of a mark for the knottelarmbrust, to 1/2 mark for the stirrup crossbows, to up to 2 marks for a Stetchel with the cranequin. The latter were used by mounted crossbowmen and by knights, as well as by professional marksmen. The windlass type were long ranged and used mainly for sieges, the windlass being by far the slowest to span.

They also have the ancient Greek Gastrophetes type, but from tests I've seen done the shooters seem to get worn out using these pretty fast.

G

[Galloglaich]

Thought some folks here might find this interesting, how war-horses and cavalry were trained (late 16th / early 17thC):

http://www.hroarr.com/knightly-arts-...earted-letter/

G

[Matthew]

Good stuff; looks like some over-interpretation as to "commanding the warhorse to attack/run down", but since the videos are no longer working I cannot see how the horse gets all four of its legs up in the air.

[Conners]

Trying to work something out... Are anti-plate similarly effective against cloth armour?

Was wondering if a stiletto would be better or worse for puncturing cloth armour than a more "bladey" dagger. On one hand, the stiletto tranfers all its force on a narrow point--but a more obtuse, sharp-edged point might slice through the cloth better with a stab.

I'm pretty sure a sword performs better against cloth armour than a warhammer does. But I could be wrong.

[fusilier]

Originally Posted by Galloglaich

Tatami are pretty hard to cut, and are used (at least today) to improve your cutting skill.

There are swords designed specifically for this kind of cutting. I don't think the type of sword has a particular name, but it is straighter, and has a longer and wider blade than a normal katana. A friend of mine teaches Japanese sword fighting, and occasionally would have "cutting parties". I went to one, and the first time swinging this sword, after a few seconds of instructions, I made a nice cut. I proceeded to do two more cuts of the tatami mat, all of them nice and clean. My form wasn't perfect (especially at the end of the swing), nor was I attempting to do anything fancy. The sword was also very well made, and as I said specifically designed for this. My friend had more difficulty when using his standard katana. Interestingly, I did better than a lot of his students, who were probably over-thinking it.

So, sword design is a part of the equation. But for me, tatami mat cutting seemed surprisingly easy! I never got a chance to try my falchion on one though. :-)

[Yora]

I've read about working transportable passive radar that has been presented, which can detect anythign in the air, regarless of stealth construction.

Does anyone know more about it?

Though it sounds simple enough. Instead of sending out beams or pulses and monitoring their deflection from objects in the air, the system just listens to whatever signals are around in the area and monitors not just echos but also shadows.
And with all the wireless communication including TV and radio, you have lots of background signals to monitor in almost every place, which can not be shut down. Unless you are able to shut down all devices in a large radius, since for example radio waves can travel very far and remain clear.

[Galloglaich]

Originally Posted by fusilier

So, sword design is a part of the equation. But for me, tatami mat cutting seemed surprisingly easy! I never got a chance to try my falchion on one though. :-)

Some people just have the knack right out of the gate. I was an 'ok' cutter the first time I cut*, but I used to do landscaping for a living for a while, so I was already pretty used to cutting things with a machete... Some guys in my group cut much better than me their first time, others took months before they could cut anything other than a milk jug (milk jugs are super easy).

I'd liken it to shooting. Some people just get it intuitively the first time, others have a little trouble and have to be shown certain things to do or not do; don't jerk the trigger, remember to breathe (exhale before squeezing the trigger), don't 'limp wrist' (when shooting pistols), hold the stock firmly against your shoulder (for rifles) and so on.

Also there are tatami and then there are tatami, it depends first of all how thick they are - I've seen anywhere from 2" to 7". There is also a difference in the mat itself, or so I've been told. We usually just use regular cheap rice mats, but the 'official' tatami are a little harder, and you may or may not put a dowell or a bamboo pole inside of them which also adds some difficulty. Of course they are supposed to be moist when you cut them too needless to say.

But you don't even need to bother with all that. From what I've seen, if you can consistently cut through a (water filled) 2 liter soda bottle with your blade without knocking the bottom over, you can cut tatami. Then the trick is to cut like that without a long preparation; to do it like you would in a fight, quick with no hesitation or telegraph... that's hard!

G

(*I've got a bit better since then but I'm still basically mediocre. Nothing like as good as Edelson is in those videos.)

[Brother Oni]

Originally Posted by Yora

I've read about working transportable passive radar that has been presented, which can detect anythign in the air, regarless of stealth construction.

The only thing I've heard was several years ago and that the American military were supposedly trying to suppress or stop the research as it obsoleted all current design stealth bombers and ships at the time.

Needless to say, take the above rumours with a large pinch of salt or tin foil hat, depending on preference.

[Yora]

That would be hilariously stupid since they are not the only ones working on it. It seems that there are lots of companies in other countries working on such things and the new mobile truck mounted one was made by EADS.

It would seem a much smarter move to instead halt further development on active radar stealth technology and instead focus more on getting your own passive radar tech up to date. Because other countries working with passive radar will also be working on ideas to foil it. And then you want to be the one with the best passive radar system around.

However, it seems that the long term consequences of field ready passive radar could end up much more complicated and drastic. Not only does it become harder to get to air defense stations without being spotted too soon. It seems that finding those stations heavily relies on aiming at the source of the radar pulses of the active radar devices. And passive radar does not emit any of those, making them almost invisible themselves.
Put a tarp over the truck with the passive radar device and you can't even see it from spy planes or satelites. Also don't try drones, those just get shot down.

In one german article one unspecified expert even was quotes as "say goodbye to air superiority". And that would really change things a lot if you lose close air support.

But that brings to mind the current development of hypersonic drones. It doesn't matter if you are completely visible when you can just outrun everything shot at you.

Or alternatively, you need to use superheavy powered exoskeletons for ground assault. I've been saying that those will be the type of mecha we'll be seing in the next couple of decades.

[fusilier]

Galloglaich:

They had for example a type of olive oil which was inedible and was used for lamp oil exclusively.

Do you have any more information on this oil? I've used olive oil in a old style "grease lamp". All I had was a fairly high quality dipping oil, but it worked very well. The wick I used was a bit thick, it took about thirty seconds to get it started burning, but once started it burned very well.

[Yora]

I would assume it tasted awful but burned better than the kitchen variants.
You could burn the kitchen oil and you most probably could digest the lamp oil.

Just like you can drink and will get drunk from industrial cleaning ethanol.

[Norsesmithy]

It's called Bi Static radar, and it uses several receivers, and compares the background "noise" "take" from each and can then produces tracking data with Doppler effects.

It's not fool proof, but the advantage that Bi Static radar has over standard radar installations is that you don't have to pour thousands of watts into the air making yourself a target for anti radiation missiles (HARMs, et al). The reason why it is more effective against stealth designs than standard radar is that since you aren't sending and receiving on reciprocal tracks, the stealth aircraft cannot present a chosen view to the radar (Stealth Aircraft are not equally stealthy in all directions).

However without the addition of a powerful transmitter as a third set, it's not very precise, can't be used for missile guidance, and can be foiled in all the same ways any large Doppler set can be, and we've been training to fight Doppler radar equipped foes for decades, so it's not like there isn't doctrine available to combat folks so equipped already.

Both the US and the Czech Republic have bi static radars or radars with bi static capability already in production, and the Czechs, in particular, are trying to sell them to everyone. The American Bi Static radars are designed to work with a third set with a powerful transmitter instead of simple background noise, generally using an AWACs or J-STAR for the transmitter set, but also sometimes a AGEIS ship.

Other "anti-stealth" radar technologies include high powered digital VHF radars, the lower frequency means that a VHF radar is less affected by the use of Radar Absorbing materials, and the digital signal processing means that the set will do a better job eliminating the signal ghosts that are so prevalent with VHF radar sets. Biggest issue with them is that they are still much easier to jam than a UHF or Microwave band set.

The Bi Static radars are a big threat not because they have a higher likelihood of detecting reduced radar cross section aircraft, but because they can provide raid warning without the need to be broadcasting with a powerful transmitter, and that makes them much more difficult to target than a traditional radar set.

Edit to add, the Bi Static capability of certain American radars has been around for decades. It's Bi Static radar able to run simply on background noise that's fairly new.

[Brother Oni]

Originally Posted by Yora

Just like you can drink and will get drunk from industrial cleaning ethanol.

Theoretically you could, but then the additives they add to make it unfit for human consumption will either cause you to vomit it all up or put you into hospital/the morgue.

[Yora]

How much does wood stop bullets? Both pistols, rifles, and machine guns and of course depending on type and thickness of the wood.

After all, wood can take a lot of deformation before splintering and even then there's still the fibre structure holding everything together. I think it might actually take bullet impacts very well.

[Spiryt]

Originally Posted by Yora

How much does wood stop bullets? Both pistols, rifles, and machine guns and of course depending on type and thickness of the wood.

After all, wood can take a lot of deformation before splintering and even then there's still the fibre structure holding everything together. I think it might actually take bullet impacts very well.

I'm pretty sure that one can find some rough penetration tables for popular bullets in the Internet, such as

here

Generally, wood will vary so much depending on species, particular tree/shrub, it's part, moisture, angle of impact (with grain? against it?) etc. that it's hard to tell.

Soft, light wood like dry pine is for example pretty poor at stopping even airgun lead pellets, and even 'stocky' pistol 9mm will carve a path in it easily AFAIR.

[Daosus]

Originally Posted by Brother Oni

Theoretically you could, but then the additives they add to make it unfit for human consumption will either cause you to vomit it all up or put you into hospital/the morgue.

Well, in the "civilized world" they add stuff to make it unfit for consumption. In the Soviet Union, industrial alcohol was a common piece of contraband and bartering item.

[Brother Oni]

Originally Posted by Daosus

Well, in the "civilized world" they add stuff to make it unfit for consumption. In the Soviet Union, industrial alcohol was a common piece of contraband and bartering item.

I can't speak for the manufacturing practices in the old Soviet Union, but over here, stuff is added so that they can avoid it being classed as an 'alcoholic beverage' and avoid the tax on it.

For comparison, a 2.5L bottle of ~95% pure ethanol for laboratory use costs about 30UKP, with duty, it's closer to 200UKP. It also doesn't have any additives (otherwise it couldn't be that pure), but industrial ethanol for cleaning purposes doesn't have that restriction.

[TimeWizard]

Maximilian Armor, aka "fluted". Why are there ridges in the armor? what do they serve?

[Spiryt]

Mostly for aesthetics, probably.

Substantial fluting could give more rigid surface for the same weight, I guess, if it was required. Actually 'wrinkled' surface wouldn't get damaged as easily by heavy impacts, but I'm not sure if this effect was really visible in most armor pieces.

[Galloglaich]

My understanding was that the 'fluting' (ridges) were to make it stronger / lighter. A lot of that Maximillian harness, the stuff made in Augsburg and Innsbruck anyway, was very thin tempered steel (and so very light, as armor goes), and I'd been given to understand that the fluting was part of it. But I never precisely understood how that works.

G

[Daosus]

Originally Posted by TimeWizard

Maximilian Armor, aka "fluted". Why are there ridges in the armor? what do they serve?

Flutes increase resistance to bending (ie, impact weapons) by increasing the second moment of inertia on the cross section. This can be done without adding much weight.

[kardar233]

Originally Posted by Yora

How much does wood stop bullets? Both pistols, rifles, and machine guns and of course depending on type and thickness of the wood.

After all, wood can take a lot of deformation before splintering and even then there's still the fibre structure holding everything together. I think it might actually take bullet impacts very well.

I wouldn't know when dealing with trees and such, but The Box of Truth did a penetration test with 3/4" pine boards in which they were pretty small defense.

[DrewID]

Originally Posted by Daosus

Flutes increase resistance to bending (ie, impact weapons) by increasing the second moment of inertia on the cross section. This can be done without adding much weight.

Similar in effect to the middle layer of corrugated cardboard.

DrewID

[headwarpage]

Hey all,

My boss has an old sword just laying around his office. He doesn't know anything about it, other than that it's been in his family forever and his forebears traveled quite a bit. He said it was ok if I asked around, so I was curious what you guys could tell me as far as age, origins, etc. Overall length is somewhere around 28", blade is about 22". Pictures below.

Spoiler

[zlefin]

how hard is it to throw a weapon (e.g. grenade, throwing knife) while prone?

[Straybow]

Originally Posted by Spiryt

Minute or more would be mostly very lazy rate, vast majority of bows probably didn't require that much time, with enough effort.

http://crossbows.republika.pl/cr/crannequin2.jpg

Unless sad remains of my German are failing me, this cranequin allows to draw about 1100 pounds over 140mm, in 25 seconds during which hands will cover about 20m, providing mechanical advantage.

So with a lot of effort and dextrous use one shot every 30 seconds would be good guess.

Crossbows of about 400 pounds generally weren't of winch etc. variety, save for hunting ones, where rate of fire didn't matter much anyway.

Yes, I seem to be off on draw by a factor of two. Cranking the cranquin is 25 seconds, but you've neglected the time of retrieving the device, attaching it to the stock, setting the catch, and then carefully detaching the device from the crossbow (no "safety" switch to prevent accidental release) and stowing it (you don't just drop it to the ground, where dirt can get in the gears and speed corrosion).

[Diamondeye]

Originally Posted by zlefin

how hard is it to throw a weapon (e.g. grenade, throwing knife) while prone?

Not very easy. I can't speak to a throwing knife, but grenades are significantly heavier than most people realize who have not handled one. Prone is not really an ideal position to make throwing motions since you can only use the arm to throw, not the whole body.

With a grenade, you overcome some of that by lobbing it up into the air in a high arc. This also has the side benefit of getting it over obstacles and giving the fuse time to burn.

[Yora]

Originally Posted by headwarpage

Hey all,

My boss has an old sword just laying around his office. He doesn't know anything about it, other than that it's been in his family forever and his forebears traveled quite a bit. He said it was ok if I asked around, so I was curious what you guys could tell me as far as age, origins, etc. Overall length is somewhere around 28", blade is about 22". Pictures below.

Spoiler

Funny you mention this know. I just learned about this kind of sword some weeks ago.
I am pretty sure it's a Yatagan, the base of the grip makes it quite distinctive and the blade shape also matches. Size seems about average. Most yatagans were made from the 1750s to the 1850s in Turkey, but it could be older or more recent, or from a completely different place.
The insciption is probably arabic, maybe it has some useful information as well. It looks somewhat unusual though, but I can't read any form of arabic.
Given the amount of decoration, it's probably a private item and not mass produced for the military. But from a first glance, it still looks completely functional. The decorations look kind of painted on on the photos, so my guess would be that it was not a terribly expensive custom made sword for a rich person. But I don't know anything about price ranges for swords in the otoman empire, so it's a total guess. Though I would assume it's for someone who can afford a more expensive sword that the common man, but still does not have a bottomless purse.

I think the best way to learn more would be find someone who can descipher the inscription on the blade.
Also, it should be cleaned of the rust. It will only get worse if left in this state.

[TimeWizard]

Ah, Yora beat me to it. That is a Yatagan. Its the starting sword in Assassins Creed Revelations too, if you wanted to see it in action.

[headwarpage]

Thanks for the info. It's a cool looking sword, hopefully he'll clean it up a bit.