Aren't warriors automatically proficient with ALL simple and martial weapons?
Fighters, rangers, paladins and barbarians are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, yes (as are the warrior and aristocrat NPC classes). If you're inquiring in regard to a whip, though, that is an exotic weapon, so most characters require an exotic weapon proficiency feat to be proficient with it. Appropriately enough for Tarquin as someone who thinks "bards are underpowered," bards are proficient with it. Even if Tarquin isn't proficient, he would be suffering a -4 penalty to attack rolls, but could still attempt everything you can do with a whip (in the SRD, at least).
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Last edited by KillingAScarab : 09-13-2012 at 07:29 PM.
He's definitely not a Barbarian (not thick enough), nor Ranger, or Paladin (yeah right) so I guess Blackguard is also out of the way too.
This sentence belongs in the dictionary under "non-sequitur."
You also originally asserted Tarquin was an epic-level warrior, which is an NPC class, not fighter. And other than "he's been adventuring for a lot longer than the OotS," which is evidence although not very compelling evidence (how many levels do you figure Roy's gained in the past, oh, five years or so? Adventurers level in bursts, not steadily), there seems to be a marked lack of evidence in your post that he's epic-level.
I agree with you about the Looking for Group thing, though. (The statement "Looking for Group is a popular webcomic" is inaccurate if Looking for Group is not actually a webcomic; based on my observation of it I'm pretty sure it's a screed. Disguised as a webcomic. And it would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for the meddling kids.)
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Fighters, rangers, paladins and barbarians are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, yes (as are the warrior and aristocrat NPC classes). If you're inquiring in regard to a whip, though, that is an exotic weapon, so most characters require an exotic weapon proficiency feat to be proficient with it. Appropriately enough for Tarquin as someone who thinks "bards are underpowered," bards are proficient with it. Even if Tarquin isn't proficient, he would be suffering a -4 penalty to attack rolls, but could still attempt everything you can do with a whip (in the SRD, at least).
i assume since hes carrying it around he has the feat
unless the whip is for the pterodn but it seems so well trained i find it unlikely
I have to admit, i don't get the joke in the title. Obviously, everyone is looking to regroup - but what's the joke?
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Originally Posted by Forikroder
looking for group is a popular webcomic
And the phrase itself, "Looking for Group" or just "LFG", mostly comes from MMORPG's, where people spam it in whenever they need help to run a dungeon, kill a particular moster, beg for gold, etc.
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I agree with you about the Looking for Group thing, though. (The statement "Looking for Group is a popular webcomic" is inaccurate if Looking for Group is not actually a webcomic; based on my observation of it I'm pretty sure it's a screed. Disguised as a webcomic. And it would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for the meddling kids.)
A "screed" how? Like I said, I don't like it very much, but that wouldn't have been the first - or the second, or the fifth - criticism I would have made.
Love how Tarquin is still convinced Elan is very powerful and an asset to his team.
Father's pride, I guess.
Ok, why is everyone down on Elan all of a sudden? Yes he's not quite the mental powerhouse V is and he lacks Roys commanding presence, but he's not exactly useless. He's beat Nale one-on-one and gone toe-to-toe with Tarquin, and he's getting better with both illusions and spell selection.
Just because he acts a little silly from time to time seems to make lots of readers forget that pretty much every character in the strip so far has commited one or more grievous mistakes that royally screwed them, and/or has near-crippling psycological issues.
I guess you can be physically weak, mentally insecure, or spiritually bankrupt and still adventure just fine, but heaven forbid you don't have a 14+ in Intellect!
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Originally Posted by LadyEowyn
Tarquin is once again prepared for everything. I'm okay with that provided that he is defeated by the end of this book and actually makes one or more visible and clear mistakes.
Just out of curiousity, why does Tarquin need to screw up? Is it somehow less satisfying to see the protagonists succeed by their own merits rather than because of the incompetence of their foes? I still don't understand why Tarquin's near-omniscient preparedness is more upsetting to people than Xykon's near-omnipotent spell spower and quasi-immortality.
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A "screed" how? Like I said, I don't like it very much, but that wouldn't have been the first - or the second, or the fifth - criticism I would have made.
Agreed - mostly due to not knowing that term and being unable to find anything relevant via Google.
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Originally Posted by Deepbluediver
Ok, why is everyone down on Elan all of a sudden? Yes he's not quite the mental powerhouse V is and he lacks Roys commanding presence, but he's not exactly useless. He's beat Nale one-on-one and gone toe-to-toe with Tarquin, and he's getting better with both illusions and spell selection.
Just because he acts a little silly from time to time seems to make lots of readers forget that pretty much every character in the strip so far has commited one or more grievous mistakes that royally screwed them, and/or has near-crippling psycological issues.
I guess you can be physically weak, mentally insecure, or spiritually bankrupt and still adventure just fine, but heaven forbid you don't have a 14+ in Intellect!
I think it's more that he doesn't have high intelligence (and since most people on this board presumably do, it's something we as a whole tend to disproportionately dislike) and doesn't have the redeeming factors of, say, Belkar or Thog (badassery and cute-innocence-while-dismembering-enemies). And, to be fair, he's been getting progressively effective since the start of the comic, as opposed to the others who tend to be effective (if only in combat) throughout the comic.
But I agree that some are discounting him too much.
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Just out of curiousity, why does Tarquin need to screw up? Is it somehow less satisfying to see the protagonists succeed by their own merits rather than because of the incompetence of their foes? I still don't understand why Tarquin's near-omniscient preparedness is more upsetting to people than Xykon's near-omnipotent spell spower and quasi-immortality.
I also agree with this - while Xykon & Team Evil is clearly still the BBEG, Tarquin has taken the secondary position in my mind. Even if the rest of the LG doesn't stick around, Tarquin is still a force to be reckoned with. (And I'd like to see him beaten by the OOTS fair and square.)
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Originally Posted by ti'esar
I just want to say that if this isn't the weirdest line of argument I've seen this thread take yet, it's not for lack of trying.
Another winner. I guess that the kobold really isn't a front line fighter/high level character in disguise, but he was high enough level to avoid dying from the Holy Word.
Boring escape it is. My personal opinion on todays comic is "Anti-climactic with a dab of yawn". Looking forward to the next one though, hopefully one with meaningful progress involving Malack.
You're assuming that nobody else is going to show up; it's high time for Xykon to do exactly that. Then there is the matter of where V and Malack are.
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People are down on Elan? I don't think that's the case in the sense that people have stopped liking him as a character. Rather, he was called out as not being as powerful and as much an asset to his team as Tarquin thinks, if at all. And, strictly speaking, he's not. He is, by his own admission, a halfway competent melee fighter, something that doesn't scream "powerful" by any means. And he's sometimes an asset to his team and sometimes a liability. In this arc alone he's been both an asset and a liability, getting Haley and V ambushed by bounty hunters but then getting the team the information they need to track down the Gate.
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Just because he acts a little silly from time to time seems to make lots of readers forget that pretty much every character in the strip so far has commited one or more grievous mistakes that royally screwed them, and/or has near-crippling psycological issues.
I guess you can be physically weak, mentally insecure, or spiritually bankrupt and still adventure just fine, but heaven forbid you don't have a 14+ in Intellect!
The gentleman doth protest too much, methinks.
You're arguing against a position no one has taken.
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Just out of curiousity, why does Tarquin need to screw up? Is it somehow less satisfying to see the protagonists succeed by their own merits rather than because of the incompetence of their foes? I still don't understand why Tarquin's near-omniscient preparedness is more upsetting to people than Xykon's near-omnipotent spell spower and quasi-immortality.
Ultimately, it comes down to believability. Is it more believable that Tarquin will screw up, or that the Order will get over that physical weakness, mental insecurity, and spiritual bankruptcy that you brought up in your last paragrph, not to mention the incompetence they have exhibited since strip 1 panel 1 when Durkon was going to let a goblin, of all things, "knock him on his ass"? Are the Order really meritorious enough that we can believe them succeeding on their own merits rather than the incompetence (or, depending on which antagonists we're talking about, untrusting relationship destined to end in betrayal) of their foes? Really, that's a matter of taste, but I can see why, to some, it is more believable that a character we've seen for one arc will act against their established type than that the ensemble of protagonists we've seen from the start of the comic will act against type. There is a substantial body of opinion on this board that believes it will be Redcloak who destroys Xykon, for instance, because they find the idea of the Order doing so just that unbelievable.
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Originally Posted by Anarion
And remember, whoever captures the fox and brings it under their control first gains ownership and accompanying property rights over the wild beast.
He is higher level then Durkon (I doubt he is epic. Epic is a major deal, Epic requires far more dedication and focus then Tarquin has had time for)
He is crazy prepared (He's Genre Savvy, this goes with the territory. Elan is generally considered a fool, but he was savvy enough to keep the girdle of masculinity/femininity stashed, knowing that if it was acquired with the knowledge of its effects before accidentally cursing a member of the party, then it was meant to be of great use at later time. So if the Genre Savvy Fool is prepared, why wouldn't his Magnificent Bastard Genre Savvy Evil Father be even more prepared)
He is Evil (Well, Duh, it isn't like we needed it spelled out in giant flaming letters... but we pretty much had that happen anyway... either that, or he really likes custard)
I'd put odds he does have the feat to use the whip.
I wouldn't put odds he has as many Axe focused feats, especially Greataxe, since he uses a Waraxe, not a Greataxe... Thog originally used a Greataxe (Which was also the one he was depicted as using in the Gladiator Posters) while Tarquin uses a Waraxe/War Axe, similar to the one Thog actually used when he fought Roy.
As for the catching arrows, their are magic items that allow that, so why waste feats on that when we already know Tarquin loves to have loads of magic items to augment his capabilities (The guy has Glamoured Armor so he can change allegiances with a thought instead of multiple sets of armor, why would he waste valuable feats that he could use on things magic items have trouble emulating when a magic item can do it for him and he can use that feat on something like taking a unique weapon proficiency, making cross-class skills into class skills, or gaining loads of free attacks/actions)
Tarquin had the Axe in Storage, which implies it is not his go to weapon... storage is where you put something you don't use almost ever, not something you're specialized in. If he'd said, "I'll use my 3rd best Axe for this, don't want to obliterate them with a single slash" instead of "I may even get my axe out of storage for the occasion" I could believe he has a specialization with axes (Someone that specializes heavily might not keep multiple backups with them, but they'd have one close at hand unless some circumstance made that not possible, and they'd have a backup somewhere, and they definitely wouldn't have only the one of the item which they keep in storage except on rare occasions.)
If Tarquin was Epic level, with so much specialization, he'd have done far more damage with any strike... (Seriously, check what Thog used to do with his Greataxe, and try to argue that an Epic character with specializations with one would not be able to one shot most foes)
This sentence belongs in the dictionary under "non-sequitur."
Come again ?
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Originally Posted by Kish
You also originally asserted Tarquin was an epic-level warrior, which is an NPC class, not fighter. And other than "he's been adventuring for a lot longer than the OotS," which is evidence although not very compelling evidence (how many levels do you figure Roy's gained in the past, oh, five years or so? Adventurers level in bursts, not steadily), there seems to be a marked lack of evidence in your post that he's epic-level.
My bad about this typo, I really meant fighter.
On the matter of OOTS levelling, I think you guys underestimate how far they've gone since the time they had to flee from a dozen goblins or a couple ogres. Trying to guess their lvl according to their number of attacks or highest level of spells cast can be done but won't be very accurate. Just like stating that according to my experience as a RPG player, when Roy came in possession of a +5 sword a very long time ago I will guess that he must have been lvl 13-14 at the very least at the time.
And as I pointed in a previous post, you need to be fairly powerful/ high level to be able to handle almost on your own a whole group of lvl 15-16ish PCs, and a couple levels over them won't be enough, which is why I wrote I thought Tarquin's epic level. Did yo usee how easily he passed saves against D spells (want to try & estimate the DC of that Will Save which as everyone knows is the forte of Fighters? and how he got rid of R and B ? got mildly annoyed by H's backstabs which must pack quite a punch, how easily he avoids/snatches H's arrows?
As Xykon taught V, "Power is Power". Do you think you've seen the real power of even a lvl17 fighter yet in any fight ? I don't think so, but we soon will when he gets bored of playing with Nale and the OOTS.
"Rabid fanboying leading said rabid fanboy to make up evidence to fit a preconceived notion" would suit just fine.
Shojo's sixty or so years on the throne, dealing with precisely the sort of problems you mention (opposition, monsters, PCs, and especially assassins) were worth fourteen levels of an NPC class.
Errmmmmm, I beg to differ, he pretended to be a senile old man talking to his cat to avoid being a target. Or am I thinking of someone else ?
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Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915
Redcloak's four months of ruling a city and dealing with these threats, but also surviving an attack by an uber-wizard with an ECL so high that defeating the ABD didn't give her XP, got him one level in his preexisting PC class.
Dealing with the low lvl scum resistance will hardly get him any xp IMO, but on the other hand we've got the evidence that this secondary villain is already lvl17 since he can cast "Gate".
So you really think Tarquin who's a major villain in the story arc is only as powerful, or even less so since he's not a spell caster (or is he ?) as Xykon's lieutenant ? Good one but I really don't think so :)
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Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915
Of the feats you attribute to Tarquin, only Deflect Arrows, Snatch Arrows, and probably some of the improved combat maneuvers feats are necessary to explain his actual, observed feats. The rest? That's all out of your head, buddy. Sure, if he's level 30 he would have a lot of feats unaccounted for, and maybe some of them would be on your list. But if he's level 17 and a fighter he'd still have a lot of feats unaccounted for. Either way, there's no real reason except rabid fanboyism to believe that any of those feats you mention, besides those he's demonstrated, have made the cut.
Wow, you do like that "rabid fanboyism" thing, don't you ?
If you're a meatshield, with high AC, high INT, the best defensive tools out there are Combat Expertise & Defending Weapon. YMMV.
Then again, please tell me what kind of feats a high lvl fighter might want aside from the PA/GCleave, weap focus, imp crit, weap spec/and the dodge series ?
Yes I'm supposing T's an epic level fighter with lots of flashy Feats he'll use soon.
Do we need to send Rich emails untill he sends us the complete PC and NPCs sheets so you can shove it in our face screaming "haha, stupid rabid fanboy, I was right from the beginning ?".
r.e. Tarquin being super prepared: Were he a PC, Tarquin would be *normally* prepared by the standards of many campaigns. Or even underprepared. All he brought for healing options is that jar of ointment that effectively does CLW, at his level of resources? And he didn't even bring it with him into the dungeon? And he has no backup damage weapon?
He's shown against a backdrop of other characters who are almost universally underprepared or underoptimized, because incompetence is funny and this is a humorous comic. So he looks really prepared by comparison.
r.e. Tarquin being super prepared: Were he a PC, Tarquin would be *normally* prepared by the standards of many campaigns. Or even underprepared. All he brought for healing options is that jar of ointment that effectively does CLW, at his level of resources? And he didn't even bring it with him into the dungeon? And he has no backup damage weapon?
He's shown against a backdrop of other characters who are almost universally underprepared or underoptimized, because incompetence is funny and this is a humorous comic. So he looks really prepared by comparison.
Yep, people complain about Tarquin being prepared, while other people complain that the Order isn't as prepared.. Okay..
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If we take this assumption as granted, then Durkon is female.
Are there still people arguing about this?
Look, guys, it's very simple: Vaarsuvius' gender is now officially "unidentified".
After a few strips, Rich Burlew realized that people couldn't tell what V was, and decided to catch up on the joke, spreading several conflicting hints, and letting the characters in the strip itself divide on the subject.
However, V was originally intended to be one or the other.
Rich Burlew never said which one, but a few hints indicate that V was meant to be male:
Early on, Rich Burlew was surprised to see appreciation comments on having a D&D party with two females;
You know how many of us say "s/he" referring to Vaarsuvius? Or how others just say "he" or "she" depending on what they think V is? Well, Rich Burlew usually goes with the politically correct "s/he" expression. Except once, when he said "he". A slip, for sure, but quite a revealing one.
For whoever speaks Latin (or Spanish, Italian, French, Portuguese, Romenian... heck, even Greek), a character whose name ends in "-ius" is obviously male, because such names can only be male. It sounds very "manly", indeed. A woman named "-ius", instead, would be ridiculous. Granted, in a fantasy world the rules don't have to be the same. And if Rich had intended for V's gender to be uncertain from the start, it might have sounded weird that he was called Vaarsuvius, but still acceptable (that is the case with Inkyrius). Unlikely, mind you, but still technically possible. However, given the level of culture that Rich has proved to have, and given the fact that he openly stated that he didn't plan V's gender to be ambiguous from the beginning, it's frankly unthinkable that he would have called an originally female "Vaarsuvia" with a name such as Vaarsuvius.
NOT THAT IT MATTERS, THOUGH.
Because an author has every right to ret-con what he sees fit (and in this case, since V's gender was never openly stated, it's a very mild ret-con), and what it was meant to be at the beginning has no effect on what it is now.
He does have one or two daggers; there's the one he used in the clash with Elan, and he threw one (possibly the same one) at Nale the following day to pinpoint his location for Malack's Invisibility Purge. However, daggers don't really do a lot of damage in combat, and aren't good defensive weapons.
"He is not a barbarian, or ranger, or paladin, so he's not a blackguard."
The conclusion in no way derives from, or even relates to, the premise.
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On the matter of OOTS levelling, I think you guys underestimate
[...]
...Once again, not really a reply to what it's claimed to be. Your original argument was that Tarquin must be epic level because he'd been adventuring so much longer than the Order. I said that how long he'd been adventuring was not strong evidence, since adventurers level in bursts, not steadily. The Order has, indeed, gained a large number of levels in a relatively short amount of time. That's the point.
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And as I pointed in a previous post, you need to be fairly powerful/ high level to be able to handle almost on your own a whole group of lvl 15-16ish PCs, and a couple levels over them won't be enough
So I take it you're a member of the "Miko was much higher level than the Order when she beat them up" club.
I'm not. Tarquin hasn't done anything that couldn't be done by a fighter the same level as Roy who focused on defensive rather than offensive feats, except possibly the Will saves, which are most likely explained by some manner of item (even if he's epic level, if he doesn't have any kind of item that boosts his Will saves in some way, he's making absolutely no effort to cover his Achilles heel, which would be odd).
(For the benefit of anyone reading this who remembers a certain old argument: Yes, I argued against someone's blithe assertion that Tarquin has a Ring of Mind Blank. And I'd do it again, because "the ring on Tarquin's not-committed-to-the-Ring-of-True-Sight finger is a not-from-D&D-books*, epic** item permanently enchanted with this eighth-level spell" is both an oddly specific claim, and an even more extreme one than simply "Tarquin is epic level." That's not the same as arguing that Tarquin has nothing that boosts his Will save in any way.)
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As Xykon taught V, "Power is Power". Do you think you've seen the real power of even a lvl17 fighter yet in any fight ? I don't think so, but we soon will when he gets bored of playing with Nale and the OOTS.
So wait. Are you saying Tarquin is epic level, or that he's level 17?
*There's no Ring of Mind Blank in any D&D book. There are rules for creation of items, but...
**...the cost of a Ring of always-on Mind Blank comes out to an epic item, before we get to the whole question of who made it; I guess the wizard or sorcerer in Tarquin's adventuring party is epic whether Tarquin is or not, and only too eager to spend his or her XP on Tarquin.
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Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
A "screed" how? Like I said, I don't like it very much, but that wouldn't have been the first - or the second, or the fifth - criticism I would have made.
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