For whoever speaks Latin (or Spanish, Italian, French, Portuguese, Romenian... heck, even Greek), a character whose name ends in "-ius" is obviously male, because such names can only be male. It sounds very "manly", indeed. A woman named "-ius", instead, would be ridiculous. Granted, in a fantasy world the rules don't have to be the same. And if Rich had intended for V's gender to be uncertain from the start, it might have sounded weird that he was called Vaarsuvius, but still acceptable (that is the case with Inkyrius). Unlikely, mind you, but still technically possible. However, given the level of culture that Rich has proved to have, and given the fact that he openly stated that he didn't plan V's gender to be ambiguous from the beginning, it's frankly unthinkable that he would have called an originally female "Vaarsuvia" with a name such as Vaarsuvius.
On the matter of OOTS levelling, I think you guys underestimate how far they've gone since the time they had to flee from a dozen goblins or a couple ogres. Trying to guess their lvl according to their number of attacks or highest level of spells cast can be done but won't be very accurate. Just like stating that according to my experience as a RPG player, when Roy came in possession of a +5 sword a very long time ago I will guess that he must have been lvl 13-14 at the very least at the time.
I think you don't understand one fundamental trait of "OOTS leveling": NPCs don't need to actually level up. They can be paradropped in front of the PCs any time and when that happens, they'll magically be at the "right" level, appropriate for the story and challenge.
So, regardless of what we do or do not know about Tarquin's background, he's clearly a fair bit higher level than the Order. I had called that before we knew Durkon's Holy Word hadn't affected him -- that piece of confirming evidence wasn't even needed to know it, because it's so obvious that it (should normally) go without saying: when the PCs meet a new big bad villain, the said big bad villain is more powerful than them, no matter how many years of adventuring he's got under his belt.
just lookat, say, Malack telling Tarquin to stop messing around and fight seriously
besides even assuming that that is tarquins main fighting style it still doesnt change that without his axe hes completely reliant on the rest of his party to do the damage, with only a whip we wont take someone down in a million years
Without the Axe, yes, he can't do things like Power Attack and Cleave very well.
He could pretty easily, however, disarm someone with a weapon that can, and then just use that. So...
Look, guys, it's very simple: Vaarsuvius' gender is now officially "unidentified".
After a few strips, Rich Burlew realized that people couldn't tell what V was, and decided to catch up on the joke, spreading several conflicting hints, and letting the characters in the strip itself divide on the subject.
However, V was originally intended to be one or the other.
Rich Burlew never said which one, but a few hints indicate that V was meant to be male:
Early on, Rich Burlew was surprised to see appreciation comments on having a D&D party with two females;
You know how many of us say "s/he" referring to Vaarsuvius? Or how others just say "he" or "she" depending on what they think V is? Well, Rich Burlew usually goes with the politically correct "s/he" expression. Except once, when he said "he". A slip, for sure, but quite a revealing one.
For whoever speaks Latin (or Spanish, Italian, French, Portuguese, Romenian... heck, even Greek), a character whose name ends in "-ius" is obviously male, because such names can only be male. It sounds very "manly", indeed. A woman named "-ius", instead, would be ridiculous. Granted, in a fantasy world the rules don't have to be the same. And if Rich had intended for V's gender to be uncertain from the start, it might have sounded weird that he was called Vaarsuvius, but still acceptable (that is the case with Inkyrius). Unlikely, mind you, but still technically possible. However, given the level of culture that Rich has proved to have, and given the fact that he openly stated that he didn't plan V's gender to be ambiguous from the beginning, it's frankly unthinkable that he would have called an originally female "Vaarsuvia" with a name such as Vaarsuvius.
NOT THAT IT MATTERS, THOUGH.
Because an author has every right to ret-con what he sees fit (and in this case, since V's gender was never openly stated, it's a very mild ret-con), and what it was meant to be at the beginning has no effect on what it is now.
Thanks for summing this up!
You actually forgot a couple other elements that are also pointing to V having been created male (for example, off the top of my head, there's RawBearNYC's opinion on the ways Rich invariably made male/female bodies different in his very early stick figure style, and from memory there's also another thing Rich said somewhere in 2003 which is quite revealing when you read between the lines), but getting into the details of these would belong in the (currently dormant, as no other evidence ever surfaces as the years pass) V's gender discussion thread.
It's hard to see Tarquin as 17th or so, if we assume that the OOTS is 13-15 or so. He talks about them as mid-level and about how things were back when he was their level. that could just be Tarquin, but he seems to tolerate them the way that Xykon does, as a nuisance as opposed to a threat. I'd guess he's significantly more powerful than any OOTS character.
As for Elan - there's a very good reason why he would be bad in this fight, which is that his competence is tied to his puns. I'm guessing that if the opponent cannot hear the pun, he is no longer oddly effective Elan, but just a guy singing a song Elan.
i assume since hes carrying it around he has the feat
unless the whip is for the pterodn but it seems so well trained i find it unlikely
Tarquin is the ruler of an empire built upon slavery. Even if he isn't training dinosaurs, in the past there might have been plenty of humans to use it upon without trying to fight them. He has slavedrivers to do that for him now, when they aren't on strike.
I would be surprised if Tarquin didn't have Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Whip.
('Course, Forikroder, if he does that's evidence against Tarquin having a ton of feats around using a greataxe, and flat-out refutation of the idea that Tarquin has no feats that are about using another weapon.)
__________________
Spoiler
"You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan
"The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan
Tarquin could be as low as level 15-16 or as high as Epic. More likely somewhere in between.
I have two quibbles with Tarquin being Epic level:
(1) It is impressive to toy with a group of opposing characters just 2 or 3 levels lower than you, because it can easily go wrong. If Tarquin is 21st+ level, it is just toying with outright inferiors. That is not impressive at all. It is just a DM Pet peeing on the PCs with impunity (yet again).
(2) I have suspension of disbelief difficulties with Epic NPCs lying around. The OotsVerse doesn't feel (to me) like a world where there are many challenges around to actually push past the mid-teens. IMHO, of course.
Obviously there is some significant degree of wiggle room on both points. But "wow, Tarquin must be Epic" is not really a positive point for how I would rate Tarquin, both as a character and the quality of writing for his character.
And the same points apply to Xykon, albeit to a much lesser degree. "Wow, Xykon is probably 27th level" makes me first and foremost think how amazingly incompetent he is, not how impressive or interesting his is.
If Malack is in the room with all the corpses, my first guess would be that he's going to make more undead, but, what would he do with more undead? Maybe we will get to find out what else his staff does soon.
Basically? Have them one-shotted. But more to the point, Malack is not really into necromancy, and not even into fighting the OOTS. Flee or Talk are his options.
It also occurs to me that the point of the "inactive ingredient" is to drive home that Elan was absolutely right to think that any item Tarquin would have to give would be monstrously evil.
__________________
Spoiler
"You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan
"The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan
Basically? Have them one-shotted. But more to the point, Malack is not really into necromancy, and not even into fighting the OOTS. Flee or Talk are his options.
Malack holds his cards close to his chest, something to be commended in a Maybe Major Villain. He is fun to speculate about (and I my own fun and outlandish speculations about Malack, which I will not go into here), but really we do not know what makes Malack tick yet.
I look forward to seeing him play his cards on the table.
Tarquin could be as low as level 15-16 or as high as Epic. More likely somewhere in between.
Agreed. A more constructive discussion would be on Tarquins maximum level. I think we can safely conclude Tarquin's level < Xykon's. I think there is a lot of evidence that Tarquin's level >= Durkon's level + [1d4 + 1], somewhere in that range. I don't see any justification for going much higher.
Isn't it very established by now that Tarquin favours pre-marital sex? He certainly didn't mind it with the Captain of the Free City of Doom. It seems almost certain that the oinment is not the reason for all his wives dying, after all, remember we all thought he had killed Penelope, and look who was actually the killer :P.
It also occurs to me that the point of the "inactive ingredient" is to drive home that Elan was absolutely right to think that any item Tarquin would have to give would be monstrously evil.
On the nose.
To add insult to injury, the objectionable part is an inactive ingredient, that is rifting on a classic D&D non-evil magic item. It could have been heart of a pig. Or olive oil. It so happens that Tarquin simply likes it better when it includes heart of a virgin.
Just out of curiousity, why does Tarquin need to screw up? Is it somehow less satisfying to see the protagonists succeed by their own merits rather than because of the incompetence of their foes? I still don't understand why Tarquin's near-omniscient preparedness is more upsetting to people than Xykon's near-omnipotent spell spower and quasi-immortality.
Because Xykon is near-omnipotent following the plot, while Tarquin's near-omniscient preparedness is due to the Plot.
Tarquin doesn't really seem unusually prepared, or particularly 'broken' in terms of what he can do.
I would expect a high-level Factotem with roughly infinite WBL, in a universe where rolled stats can and do produce anti-MAD monsters like Miko, to be more than capable of doing everything he has*. By the same token, his preparations are general precautions rather than Batman-style "aha, but I secretly fed you paralyzing poison in your hotel chocolates, which are activated by the adrenaline of our fight**" shenanigans.
Personally though, I still like Nale much much more than Tarquin. He is funny, actually pretty successful as antagonists go, has connections to every major player in the plot, and the Nale/Sabine relationship is interesting. If Nale doesn't kill Tarquin and take back the "recurring secondary villain" mantle by the end of this arc I would be very surprised.
*Heck, with the right items even a high-Int Fighter could pull off most of his tricks; slap some Gloves of Arrow Snatching, a used-up Luck Blade or three, the item which gives Mettle + a Ring of Evasion, standard Save and AC boosting items, even something like a Tome of Clear Thought +5 if he needs extra skill points/languages known.
**Actually a real Batman plan, though it was **** Grayson instead of Bruce himself.
-Edit-
Seriously? THAT got auto-censored?
Last edited by Water_Bear : 09-14-2012 at 01:26 PM.
Reason: Huh?
It also occurs to me that the point of the "inactive ingredient" is to drive home that Elan was absolutely right to think that any item Tarquin would have to give would be monstrously evil.
Very good observation!
__________________
LGBTitP
Quote:
Originally Posted by ti'esar
I just want to say that if this isn't the weirdest line of argument I've seen this thread take yet, it's not for lack of trying.
Personally though, I still like Nale much much more than Tarquin. He is funny, actually pretty successful as antagonists go, has connections to every major player in the plot, and the Nale/Sabine relationship is interesting. If Nale doesn't kill Tarquin and take back the "recurring secondary villain" mantle by the end of this arc I would be very surprised.
These are my thoughts as well.
For some reason, I see Nale teleporting and leaving Tarquin by himself in a collapsing pyramid, near an exploding Gate, and/or near a bored Xykon.
__________________ group hug! Hold Person.
~R.I.P. Thog (possibly) and Durkon Thundershield (eventually)~
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by martianmister
Mongolian hordes. Lots of lots of mongolian hordes. With a mongolian warrior chief. They will conquer Gobbotopia and rename it as Mongolitopia. Because that makes so much sense.
Because Xykon is near-omnipotent following the plot, while Tarquin's near-omniscient preparedness is due to the Plot.
Honestly, hisknowing Drow sign language was the only really questionable thing he did, and it's at least conceivable that a really, really experienced adventurer such as himself would take the time to learn a silent form of communication, as he'd know that there would be at lesat some situations where verbal communciation would be impossible.
Hell, I thought of this in a totally unrelated situation, so...
Me, for a character of mine. I ultimately discarded the idea because practically no one else knows Drow Sign Language, so the communication wouldn't be effective, but Tarquin's been in a position to train armies. He could easily have taught some of his elite goons the language, and thus found a use for it.
Nale, by virtue of knowing Dimension Door, can teleport. Granted, he can only go a few hundred feet at a time, but he's a sorcerer. He can do it again. And again. And again. You see the pattern.
Also, why are people assuming Z's going to consciously betray Nale for Tarquin? He's stayed loyal to Nale for over eight hundred strips, and has been working behind Tarquin's back, on Nale's behalf, for a significant part of that time. A small kindness by Tarquin is enough to persude him otherwise? Why? Because Tarquin has magical friendship powers? Now, I like MLP as much as the next guy, but this story is not that one.
__________________
Milk Chocolate Justiciar of the Haley fanclub
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anarion
And remember, whoever captures the fox and brings it under their control first gains ownership and accompanying property rights over the wild beast.
You're assuming that nobody else is going to show up; it's high time for Xykon to do exactly that. Then there is the matter of where V and Malack are.
Even if Xykon now gets the jump on Tarquin and co, the pace has been slowed considerably. I am indeed looking forward to seeing Malack again, as I posted before, but the LG getting away to regroup has been done before. More than once. As someone else commented in this thread, it feels like a children's show where the villain always miraculously escapes so he'll be around for the the next episode.
I'd love to see some definite progress, not yet another escape + replace the mooks.Even the loss of Sabine is very much temporary (although the time she's forcibly gone can be more than enough for a decent confrontation.
But hey, it's not my story, I definitely can't do better. But this is how I feel about this plot point :)
Drow are traditionally matriarchal, so them being less gender ambiguous makes sense.
__________________ group hug! Hold Person.
~R.I.P. Thog (possibly) and Durkon Thundershield (eventually)~
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by martianmister
Mongolian hordes. Lots of lots of mongolian hordes. With a mongolian warrior chief. They will conquer Gobbotopia and rename it as Mongolitopia. Because that makes so much sense.
Drow are traditionally matriarchal, so them being less gender ambiguous makes sense.
All the more reason for those to be male drow in drag, scheming to usurp power. Nah, there are two male drow featured in On the Origins of the PCs. Both have boxy torsos and they are either wearing the trappings of wizards or come with the standard-issue scimitars. Zz'dtri does both. There was also at least one female elf in OOotPC, and a number of them in Start of Darkness, however none of those were Drow.
Some more clues for Ron Miel, which I don't think have been brought up. First, the Linear Guild recruited Pompey as Vaarsuvius' evil opposite; Pompey had a clearly-established gender identity. Also, Qarr is openly confused about V's gender, yet confident in using male pronouns for Zz'dtri. Z is too... terse to really establish that, but I think Qarr and Sabine is enough. I also found it very funny when Vaarsuvius used Haley's catchphrase - guess which part was the error.
Last edited by KillingAScarab : 09-14-2012 at 11:53 PM.
I think you don't understand one fundamental trait of "OOTS leveling": NPCs don't need to actually level up. They can be paradropped in front of the PCs any time and when that happens, they'll magically be at the "right" level, appropriate for the story and challenge.
So, regardless of what we do or do not know about Tarquin's background, he's clearly a fair bit higher level than the Order. I had called that before we knew Durkon's Holy Word hadn't affected him -- that piece of confirming evidence wasn't even needed to know it, because it's so obvious that it (should normally) go without saying: when the PCs meet a new big bad villain, the said big bad villain is more powerful than them, no matter how many years of adventuring he's got under his belt.
I agree with you as far as one shot vilains are concerned, but that would be silly for recurent ones like Red Cloak for exemple. You can't have him cast much more powerful spells from 1 strip to another without raising questions.
I agree with you as far as one shot vilains are concerned, but that would be silly for recurent ones like Red Cloak for exemple. You can't have him cast much more powerful spells from 1 strip to another without raising questions.
Really?
So you had questions when Nale went from Expeditious Retreat to Suggestion? Or when Redcloak summoned a fiendish elephant?
__________________
Spoiler
"You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan
"The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan
RSS Feeds: 
Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
Milk Chocolate Justiciar of the Haley fanclub 
Secretary of the Shoes For Wights fund 
Nah, there are two male drow featured in On the Origins of the PCs. Both have boxy torsos and they are either wearing the trappings of wizards or come with the standard-issue scimitars. Zz'dtri does both. There was also at least one female elf in OOotPC, and a number of them in Start of Darkness, however none of those were Drow.
