The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

[The Glyphstone]

If Brutes are supposed to be super-tough, I could see a case for them being given Feel No Pain as a special rule.

[deuterio12]

Originally Posted by ChaosLord29

Generally speaking, yes they do, but we thought that didn't really capture how they seem to function in Halo, especially since they are so much easier to overwhelm with explosives or overwhelming firepower.

The diference between real-time and turn-based.

In that game where you play a SM captain in 3rd person view, the Iron Halo became a Regenerative Shield indeed.

Originally Posted by ChaosLord29

I mean, Beamswords aren't really a defense against them, yeah?

Just means they're actually on the level of the old C'tan Phase swords (ignores both armor and Invulnerable saves).

Plus with the latest 6e, regular power swords don't penetrate the top armor anymore (AP 3), and power mauls can't even penetrate power armor (AP 4). Power axes have AP 2, but make you strike at I1.

[ChaosLord29]

Originally Posted by deuterio12

The diference between real-time and turn-based.

In that game where you play a SM captain in 3rd person view, the Iron Halo became a Regenerative Shield indeed.

Honestly I'd attribute that much more to regenerative shields (or health or whatever) being the mechanic dujour of space marine games (no caps intentional).

Just means they're actually on the level of the old C'tan Phase swords (ignores both armor and Invulnerable saves).

Plus with the latest 6e, regular power swords don't penetrate the top armor anymore (AP 3), and power mauls can't even penetrate power armor (AP 4). Power axes have AP 2, but make you strike at I1.

No, the Beamsword is not a C'tan phaseblade lol. Can anyone else confirm that? Do power weapons no longer universally ignore armor saves.

[The_Final_Stand]

Correct. "Power Weapon" is a generic class of weapon. Of this type, there are 3 main ones, Swords, which hit at the same Strength as the user but are AP3, Axes, which hit at S+1 and AP2, but make you strike last, and Maces/Mauls, which hit at S+2 and make their foe hit last instead, but are only AP4.

Thunder Hammers, which is basically what the Gravity Hammer is in this case, strike at 2XS, at AP2, and inflict the same Concussive debuff as the Power Maul, but also strike last.

VV Oh no, Power Fists are still there. They're just like Thunder Hammers, but they aren't Concussive. I was just mentioning the relevant weapons. If you wanted a list of all Melee weapons in 40K, then we'd be here for roughly eternity.

[The Glyphstone]

Power Fists are gone, then? I weep for that poor SM special character who dual-wields them, and for pretty much everyone in the Crimson Fists chapter...

[Forum Explorer]

Originally Posted by Selrahc

Beam rifle should allow Heavy 2(Gets hot). And should probably be rending too, which I think is the standard for snipers now.
Needler I would say is a S2 AP- Assault 2 rending weapon. The way a needler works does act as if it is rending. Very little damage for each individual needle, but a lot of them will suddenly start doing heavy damage.
I'd possibly up the Fuel rod to a S8, and drop its AP to 4. From a game perspective, it is a covenant tank buster. S7 doesn't really work as the mainstay tank buster.
Brute shot looks a little too powerful maybe, I'd drop it S5AP5.
Plasma pistol overcharge would be a little insane for 40k as a basic weapon that almost all troops in an army list can use.

I'd also add as wargear "Overshield", which gives a 4+ invulnerable save for a turn.

S: 7 works for fuel rods when you consider how lightly armored all the vehicles are in the Covenant. I wouldn't give anything in their army an armor value greater then 12.

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

If Brutes are supposed to be super-tough, I could see a case for them being given Feel No Pain as a special rule.

Sure that works.

[Triscuitable]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

If Brutes are supposed to be super-tough, I could see a case for them being given Feel No Pain as a special rule.

I have a theory that they eat high-velocity plasma and 5.56mm bullets for breaktast. But yes, they are unbelievably durable, commonly taking dozens of headshots from a BR or DMR, and even more shots from assault rifles and even miniguns.

[ChaosLord29]

Originally Posted by Triscuitable

I have a theory that they eat high-velocity plasma and 5.56mm bullets for breaktast. But yes, they are unbelievably durable, commonly taking dozens of headshots from a BR or DMR, and even more shots from assault rifles and even miniguns.

Ok, I know they do that in the game on hard and legendary mode and all that, but there's nothing I've read about then in the canon literature to suggest they can take multiple headshots.

[The_Final_Stand]

Scarabs probably count as having more than 12 Armour. I can see a point for Open Topped though, given that A: It kinda is, and B: If you get a good hit in, on say, the legs, it is going down.

I wouldn't quite count the Ghost as a vehicle in its own right, more a Jetbike with a twin linked Light Plasma Cannon.

Light Plasma Cannon
Range 24" Strength 6 AP 4 Heavy 2

Ghosts may be taken by Grunts, Elites, and Brutes. Models equipped with a Ghost follow all the rules for Jetbikes as described in the Warhammer 40Kovenant rulebook. Ghosts are fitted with twin linked Light Plasma Cannons.

How's that? I'm guessing Plasma Cannon refers to the tripod mounted ones that can be picked up by Spartans/Elites/Brutes? My justification is that these are similar (on Halopedia, these are Class 2 cannons, the tripod ones are Class 1), but can't quite match the rate of fire, and are mounted on Ghosts and Banshees.

Maybe they'd just count as regular bikes, since they never actually fly over anything, like Jetbikes do. If that was the case, then I'd make Banshees Jetbikes, with a Twin Linked Light Plasma Cannon, and a Fuel Rod Gun.

Also note that Ghosts Turbo Boosting is already taken care of in the 40k rulebook.


While I'm posting, I disagree with the Assault Cannon, and the Fuel Rod Gun too somewhat. I'd have put the Hunter variant as fired in one of two modes: Fuel Rod Gun mode (both of which should probably have Blast), or the Beam mode, with the current profile minus the Blast.

[ChaosLord29]

Originally Posted by The_Final_Stand

Scarabs probably count as having more than 12 Armour. I can see a point for Open Topped though, given that A: It kinda is, and B: If you get a good hit in, on say, the legs, it is going down.

I wouldn't quite count the Ghost as a vehicle in its own right, more a Jetbike with a twin linked Light Plasma Cannon.


How's that? I'm guessing Plasma Cannon refers to the tripod mounted ones that can be picked up by Spartans/Elites/Brutes? My justification is that these are similar (on Halopedia, these are Class 2 cannons, the tripod ones are Class 1), but can't quite match the rate of fire, and are mounted on Ghosts and Banshees.

Maybe they'd just count as regular bikes, since they never actually fly over anything, like Jetbikes do. If that was the case, then I'd make Banshees Jetbikes, with a Twin Linked Light Plasma Cannon, and a Fuel Rod Gun.

Also note that Ghosts Turbo Boosting is already taken care of in the 40k rulebook.


While I'm posting, I disagree with the Assault Cannon, and the Fuel Rod Gun too somewhat. I'd have put the Hunter variant as fired in one of two modes: Fuel Rod Gun mode (both of which should probably have Blast), or the Beam mode, with the current profile minus the Blast.

That mostly sounds reasonable, but we're leaving the Scarab off the main army list on the basis that it's a super heavy vehicle.

[Triscuitable]

Originally Posted by ChaosLord29

Ok, I know they do that in the game on hard and legendary mode and all that, but there's nothing I've read about then in the canon literature to suggest they can take multiple headshots.

Because nobody tried. The only books to feature them are Evolution, Contact: Harvest, The Cole Protocol, The Ghosts of Onyx, and First Strike. They weren't very common, either. By Halo 3, they're very common.

[ChaosLord29]

Originally Posted by Triscuitable

Because nobody tried. The only books to feature them are Evolution, Contact: Harvest, The Cole Protocol, The Ghosts of Onyx, and First Strike. They weren't very common, either. By Halo 3, they're very common.

Well, if Feel No Pain is a viable rule, should we change them from being a Troops choice? Is that and their weaponry enough to qualify them as an Elite option?

[Triscuitable]

Originally Posted by ChaosLord29

Well, if Feel No Pain is a viable rule, should we change them from being a Troops choice? Is that and their weaponry enough to qualify them as an Elite option?

They replaced the Elites when the Sangehlians defected.

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Triscuitable

They replaced the Elites when the Sangehlians defected.

So making them an Elite army slot would be the right choice. Maybe an army special rule that prevents you from taking Elites and Brutes in the same army, to represent pre- and post-schism Covenant.

[Triscuitable]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

So making them an Elite army slot would be the right choice. Maybe an army special rule that prevents you from taking Elites and Brutes in the same army, to represent pre- and post-schism Covenant.

Technically this is Covenant around Halo 3 ODST era, so the Elites and Brutes are both races in the Covenant, but they refuse to operate together. You won't see the cooperate at any time.

[ChaosLord29]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

So making them an Elite army slot would be the right choice. Maybe an army special rule that prevents you from taking Elites and Brutes in the same army, to represent pre- and post-schism Covenant.

Well, I'd prefer a complete army list that represents the Covenant at the height of their power, when they had access to and could field both Sangheili Elites and Jiralhanae Brutes.

How about they are both Default Elite choices, but if you field a Sangheili Zealot, his fellow Sangeilie Elites are now Troop choices, and if you choose instead to field a Jiralhanae Chieftain, then Brute Packs can now be taken as Troops.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Couldn't the Brutes and Elites work together if a Prophet was in charge so they all had to play nice?

Also since I'm only scanning a lot of the details has anyone done anything about Plasma Grenades?

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee

Couldn't the Brutes and Elites work together if a Prophet was in charge so they all had to play nice?

Also since I'm only scanning a lot of the details has anyone done anything about Plasma Grenades?

I'd just call them Krak grenades for simplicity. Their sticky properties aren't significant enough at the scale they come into play to warrant special rules, and they are the 'tankbusting' grenades.

[dgnslyr]

Would plasma grenades compare to Melta-bombs? They're both grenades full of really-hot-fiery-stuff, right? Dunno about how the blast compares, but they both seem to wreck armor within their respective universes.

[Tiki Snakes]

Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee

Couldn't the Brutes and Elites work together if a Prophet was in charge so they all had to play nice?

Also since I'm only scanning a lot of the details has anyone done anything about Plasma Grenades?

They wouldn't magically burst into flames but essentially as I understand it, they just don't.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

I'd just call them Krak grenades for simplicity. Their sticky properties aren't significant enough at the scale they come into play to warrant special rules, and they are the 'tankbusting' grenades.

I disagree sticking makes them so much easier to hit with. Plus they seem to be certain death if you stick it to a foe. Plus they are at least as deadly as Frags for infantry which I seem to remember Kraks being slightly less.

I don't know if 40k table top mechanics are precise enough though, it makes some pretty broad generalizations and I don't know them well at all.

[Chess435]

Alright, I'm gonna have a go at this. It's just a rough draft, so I'm open to suggestions.

Thel 'Vadamee, Arbiter of the Sanghelli

WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	LD	Sv
7	7	5	5	3	5	2	10	3+

Wargear:
Dual Plasma Rifles (Treat as twin-linked)
Plasma Grenades (Once rules for them are worked out)
Energy Sword
Arbiter's Combat Harness (as normal harness, but 3+ armor save)
Energy Shields (Allow re-roll of one failed save per round)
Active Camo (Single use, used at the beginning of a turn. All units shooting at Thel must roll as if using the Night Fighting rules.)


Special Rules:
Independent Character
Eternal Warrior
Fleet of Foot
Lightning Reflexes (Grants a 5+ Invulnerable save)
Fury of the Covenant (All allied Covenant units within 12" [including himself] are Fearless)

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee

I disagree sticking makes them so much easier to hit with. Plus they seem to be certain death if you stick it to a foe. Plus they are at least as deadly as Frags for infantry which I seem to remember Kraks being slightly less.

I don't know if 40k table top mechanics are precise enough though, it makes some pretty broad generalizations and I don't know them well at all.

Krak grenades and frag grenades, as infantry wargear, don't actually do damage to other infantry despite thinking it'd be obvious for them to do so - frags ignore cover bonuses, kraks are anti-vehicle melee weapons for troops who can't melee a vehicle on their own. Sure, it's easier to kill someone with a grenade if it's magnetic, but at the scale that melee combat represents, it's not really much better than stabbing them with your spiked skull-covered chainsaw sword. Though in the RPG, Kraks are grenades with higher damage and smaller blast radius.

I just think the last thing that the game needs is ANOTHER type of special grenade with wonky rules, when 'counts as frag/krak grenades' is enough and the game's newest editions are trying to weed them out. Though now that I'm thinking of it, the sticky property could be represented as having plasma grenades count as both frag and kraks, and have plain frag grenades as a separate and cheaper option.

Wargear:
Dual Plasma Rifles (Treat as single Plasma Rifle at Assault 4)
Energy Sword
Arbiter's Combat Harness (as normal harness, but 3+ armor save)
Energy Shields (Allow re-roll of one failed save per round)
Active Camo (Single use, used at the beginning of a turn and grants a 3+ cover? save for that turn)

If it's dual-wielding, that'd make more sense as a Twin-Linked plasma rifle. Having two guns side by side in 40K will never give you more hits than one, it just makes you twice as likely to hit with any of them.
Active Camo - have it grant the Night Fighting special rule for anyone who shoots at him that turn.
Re-rolling saves isn't as good as you think because you can't re-roll an automatic fail, which AP3 weapons would do. Instead, just have the Energy Shields give a 4+ invulnerable save.

[Triscuitable]

Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee

Couldn't the Brutes and Elites work together if a Prophet was in charge so they all had to play nice?

A Prophet was in charge. He was the one who ordered the Brutes to attack the Elites. Tartarus is another hero unit you should consider. He's the one who ruined the Elite/Covenant alliance.

[Chess435]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

If it's dual-wielding, that'd make more sense as a Twin-Linked plasma rifle. Having two guns side by side in 40K will never give you more hits than one, it just makes you twice as likely to hit with any of them.
Active Camo - have it grant the Night Fighting special rule for anyone who shoots at him that turn.
Re-rolling saves isn't as good as you think because you can't re-roll an automatic fail, which AP3 weapons would do. Instead, just have the Energy Shields give a 4+ invulnerable save

I'm pretty sure Dire Avenger Exarchs get extra shots for dual-wielding.

Also, I really like your Active Camo idea.

The reason I gave the Arbiter an Invuln on the side instead of in the shields is that if every Elite was running around with a 4+ or even a 5+ invulnerable save, things would get problematic quickly. Would you guys be comfortable giving all units with Energy Shields a 6+ Invulnerable save and 1 reroll per round? (Improving to 5+ for Zealots/Generals/Special Characters?)

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Chess435

I'm pretty sure Dire Avenger Exarchs get extra shots for dual-wielding.

Also, I really like your Active Camo idea.

Maybe so, I don't play Eldar. It'd be a strong exception if it is true, though.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Krak grenades and frag grenades, as infantry wargear, don't actually do damage to other infantry despite thinking it'd be obvious for them to do so - frags ignore cover bonuses, kraks are anti-vehicle melee weapons for troops who can't melee a vehicle on their own. Sure, it's easier to kill someone with a grenade if it's magnetic, but at the scale that melee combat represents, it's not really much better than stabbing them with your spiked skull-covered chainsaw sword. Though in the RPG, Kraks are grenades with higher damage and smaller blast radius.

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Triscuitable

A Prophet was in charge. He was the one who ordered the Brutes to attack the Elites. Tartarus is another hero unit you should consider. He's the one who ruined the Elite/Covenant alliance.

I know that but if you are talking about a slightly more generic version of the Covenant before the Schism... just saying doesn't nessecarily make sense that they never worked together

[ChaosLord29]

Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee

Fair enough.



I know that but if you are talking about a slightly more generic version of the Covenant before the Schism... just saying doesn't nessecarily make sense that they never worked together

Actually, the rules I outlined already cover for that. If you take a Prophet, but not a Zealot or a Chieftain, then both Jiralhanae and Sangheili are available as Elite choices.

The only messy part of the rule is that you can't pick both a Zealot and a Chieftain, since even before the schism the two sides largely refused to work with one another, or at the very least a Sangheili would never follow a Jiralhanae leader into battle. They'd have their own separate Sangheili commander (even if one lower ranked than the Brute).

Originally Posted by Chess435

Alright, I'm gonna have a go at this. It's just a rough draft, so I'm open to suggestions.

Thel 'Vadamee, Arbiter of the Sanghelli

Wargear:
Dual Plasma Rifles (Treat as twin-linked)
Plasma Grenades (Once rules for them are worked out)
Energy Sword
Arbiter's Combat Harness (as normal harness, but 3+ armor save)
Energy Shields (Allow re-roll of one failed save per round)
Active Camo (Single use, used at the beginning of a turn. All units shooting at Thel must roll as if using the Night Fighting rules.)


Special Rules:
Independent Character
Eternal Warrior
Fleet of Foot
Lightning Reflexes (Grants a 5+ Invulnerable save)
Fury of the Covenant (All allied Covenant units within 12" [including himself] are Fearless)

It looks pretty good to me, especially with the changes suggested thus far. The only thing I would suggest is that Fury of the Covenant have an addendum that it does not affect Jiralhanae. You might even go so far to include that all Jiralhanae fighting Thel 'Vadamee Hate this model (40k has standardized rules for Hatred now right? Always hit on a 3+, will not leave combat with, etc.)

[ChaosLord29]

Originally Posted by Chess435

Alright, I'm gonna have a go at this. It's just a rough draft, so I'm open to suggestions.

Thel 'Vadamee, Arbiter of the Sanghelli

Wargear:
Dual Plasma Rifles (Treat as twin-linked)
Plasma Grenades (Once rules for them are worked out)
Energy Sword
Arbiter's Combat Harness (as normal harness, but 3+ armor save)
Energy Shields (Allow re-roll of one failed save per round)
Active Camo (Single use, used at the beginning of a turn. All units shooting at Thel must roll as if using the Night Fighting rules.)


Special Rules:
Independent Character
Eternal Warrior
Fleet of Foot
Lightning Reflexes (Grants a 5+ Invulnerable save)
Fury of the Covenant (All allied Covenant units within 12" [including himself] are Fearless)

It looks pretty good to me, especially with the changes suggested thus far. The only thing I would suggest is that Fury of the Covenant have an addendum that it does not affect Jiralhanae. You might even go so far to include that all Jiralhanae fighting Thel 'Vadamee Hate this model (40k has standardized rules for Hatred now right? Always hit on a 3+, will not leave combat with, etc.)

[The_Final_Stand]

Originally Posted by Chess435

Alright, I'm gonna have a go at this. It's just a rough draft, so I'm open to suggestions.

Thel 'Vadamee, Arbiter of the Sanghelli

Wargear:
Dual Plasma Rifles (Treat as twin-linked)
Plasma Grenades (Once rules for them are worked out)
Energy Sword
Arbiter's Combat Harness (as normal harness, but 3+ armor save)
Energy Shields (Allow re-roll of one failed save per round)
Active Camo (Single use, used at the beginning of a turn. All units shooting at Thel must roll as if using the Night Fighting rules.)


Special Rules:
Independent Character
Eternal Warrior
Fleet of Foot
Lightning Reflexes (Grants a 5+ Invulnerable save)
Fury of the Covenant (All allied Covenant units within 12" [including himself] are Fearless)

I want to note that I disagree with giving him higher Strength and Toughness. Special Characters in 40K are still technically Human/Eldar/Ork/Whatever, so they aren't any stronger or tougher. They may have more Wounds to grant them more staying power, or better saves from more advanced Wargear, or higher WS/BS/I/Ld to represent greater combat experience, but the physical stats rarely change unless they've been augmented in some way (Straken).

Presumably, Active Camo could be a piece of Wargear for Elites (the species, not the FO slot) in general to take as an upgrade?

^^Hatred just means that on the first round of close combat with the Hated foe, they reroll all misses.