The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

[Anecronwashere]

Originally Posted by Triscuitable

And yet you choose to ignore the fact that the Covenant have the quickly-regenerating, reliably defensive energy shields.

That go down when hit by a few metal slugs...
If I hit someone in Legendary with that big as Beam Weapon will it's shields go down? What happens if they take 2-3 hits?

Lasguns (titled Flashlights due to their being Weak compared to other weapons) are those Beam Cannons on semi-auto/auto.

Or how about Bolters? Which basically Penetrating Rockets. (Rocket-propelled, they explode inside you) Would their armour hold up to that? Even if they do stop the insertion would the Rocket-To-The-Face be protected against?

Your regenerating shield is basically a 1-use Armour save.

[Tiki Snakes]

Originally Posted by Triscuitable

Also of note, MJOLNIR is lightweight stuff (despite it weighing half a ton) when wielded by a Spartan. It's so effective that it actually enhances body functions while providing incredibly powerful energy shields, seperate implants, and doesn't impede movement at all.

Hell, if this were a Spartan versus a Space Marine, the Spartan would more than likely win. He's got better training, less cumbersome armor, and can quite efficiently goomba-stomp their foe to death, should they try.

They also have a tendency to, y'know, wear their helmet.

Actually, Space Marines have an implant specifically designed to insure that their armour DOESN'T affect their mobility at all. that is specifically what the Black Carapace is for, and it allows them to be just as hard to hit as if they weren't even wearing it, despite them counting as a size bigger whilst they are. It also increases their strength to ridiculous degrees and has a number of fancy tricks that the average spartan would be incredibly jealous about, such as a range of different sensors (which would most likely handily negate the covenants cloaking devices), automatic medical treatments and so on. It's easy to understate how much more impressive Space Marine Armour is that the Mjolnir thing.

[Forum Explorer]

Originally Posted by Triscuitable

And yet you choose to ignore the fact that the Covenant have the quickly-regenerating, reliably defensive energy shields.

Well I didn't know about them. So I looked it up on the Halo wiki and here is generally what I found.

The shields are decent and actually provide some defense against torpedoes unlike Imperial shields. However they are particularly weak to lance weapons and other energy weapons. They also charge up slower then the Imperial shields. Also they do have an exploitable weakness in that they have to drop shields around fighter bays/torpedo tubes in order to launch their weapons.

I also found that the 'glassing' gun is generally on the three top ships and is about equilvent to a single lance in both range and power. However the glassing itself takes a long time as they go over the entire planet's surface having to actually shoot again and again to cover the entire surface. So their planet destruction abilities are much worse then the Imperium's.

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Forum Explorer

Well I didn't know about them. So I looked it up on the Halo wiki and here is generally what I found.

The shields are decent and actually provide some defense against torpedoes unlike Imperial shields. However they are particularly weak to lance weapons and other energy weapons. They also charge up slower then the Imperial shields. Also they do have an exploitable weakness in that they have to drop shields around fighter bays/torpedo tubes in order to launch their weapons.

I also found that the 'glassing' gun is generally on the three top ships and is about equilvent to a single lance in both range and power. However the glassing itself takes a long time as they go over the entire planet's surface having to actually shoot again and again to cover the entire surface. So their planet destruction abilities are much worse then the Imperium's.

That could work in the Covenant's favor to a degree then, because it is standard Imperial doctrine to batter down shield with projectile batteries before firing lances so the shields don't get in the way. Until/unless they get some salvage samples, they'd assume shields = shields like every other energy shield in their universe and use standard tactics.

[Forum Explorer]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

That could work in the Covenant's favor to a degree then, because it is standard Imperial doctrine to batter down shield with projectile batteries before firing lances so the shields don't get in the way. Until/unless they get some salvage samples, they'd assume shields = shields like every other energy shield in their universe and use standard tactics.

The difference as far as I can tell is that a lance would go through the shields like a bullet through tissue paper and the batteries would have to go through it normally.


Also source? I've never heard that as a standard tactic before. Particularly as some ships only have lances or are just very lance heavy.

I should point out also that some ships do have energy weapon banks that aren't lances. So they'll likely figure it out sooner then you think.

[shadow_archmagi]

Originally Posted by Forum Explorer

The difference as far as I can tell is that a lance would go through the shields like a bullet through tissue paper and the batteries would have to go through it normally.


Also source? I've never heard that as a standard tactic before. Particularly as some ships only have lances or are just very lance heavy.

I should point out also that some ships do have energy weapon banks that aren't lances. So they'll likely figure it out sooner then you think.

The Rogue Trader sourcebook mentions it over and over again- because Lances ignore armor, and Void Shields block anything, they use projectile weapons to soak the shields and then fire lances to ignore the hull armor

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi

The Rogue Trader sourcebook mentions it over and over again- because Lances ignore armor, and Void Shields block anything, they use projectile weapons to soak the shields and then fire lances to ignore the hull armor

Indeed.

And yes, there do exist energy based non-lance weapons, but they are rare (typically mounted on Adeptus Mechanicus ships who can experiment with the weird stuff, or lost archaeotech ships), and usually shorter-ranged. The exceptions are xeno-tech weapons (Eldar use energy weapon batteries instead of projectiles), but that wouldn't be found on Imperial Navy line vessels.

Ships with lance-only or lance-heavy armament aren't typically standard line vessels either. They're purpose designed that way, to move in concert with other ships carrying a heavy or pure projectile armament.

[Triscuitable]

Originally Posted by Forum Explorer

I also found that the 'glassing' gun is generally on the three top ships and is about equilvent to a single lance in both range and power. However the glassing itself takes a long time as they go over the entire planet's surface having to actually shoot again and again to cover the entire surface. So their planet destruction abilities are much worse then the Imperium's.

So we're not including psychological warfare, and ignoring the fact that they can always target notable areas first for the sake of strategy. Sounds good. They have a lot more capable weapons, but they glass to make humans suffer. They want to remind them of their power by showing them they can just take a few days to completely annihilate the surface of a planet, with no worry of opposition. Should they want to use more efficient methods, they will.

[ChaosLord29]

Originally Posted by Triscuitable

And yet you choose to ignore the fact that the Covenant have the quickly-regenerating, reliably defensive energy shields.

Quickly regenerating reliable shields that go down reliably against UNSC MAC cannons. We did the math and they can withstand a couple megajoules of energy (enough to defend against their own plasma weapons; but not the energy projectors aboard Super Carriers). Imperial Lance Batteries operate at the level of gigajoules.

How do we know? Because standard Covenant Plasma weapons melt through UNSC ships with relative ease. A standard Lance Battery aboard and Imperial Cruiser does the same thing, only against ships double or triple the size of the Covenant ships. The other difference being that Imperial Ships have Void shielding which can withstand multiple Lance hits (they have to, because Lances melt right through the 10-30 meter thick armor, again nearly twice that of Covenant ship hull plating), and are similarly regenerative (not quite as reliably as the Covenant's, but still).

And based on the Battle of Reach novel and the Halo wiki, the standard engagement range for Covenant craft is 10,000-30,0000km. Again, only half or a third of the standard engagement range established in Battlefleet Gothic (the ship combat game for the 40k universe).

The only thing in the Covenant Fleet capable of giving anything in the Imperial Navy a run for it's money is the Super Carrier. Standard Imperial Frigates and Cruisers should reliably be able to tank dozens of Covenant ships, disabling or destroying them in droves with their broadsides and Torpedos (which Covenant craft point defense systems will be less effective against, seeing as Imperial Torpedos are again twice or three times the size of anything the UNSC or Covenant themselves use).

As for how to deal with the Super Carriers themselves? Boarding actions by Space Marine Terminators should be more than sufficient.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Originally Posted by ChaosLord29

Imperial Lance Batteries operate at the level of gigajoules.

Where does this come from?

No seriously what is this being established from?

And if its JUST a number... well I really don't like to use numbers in arguments like this but. A standard MAC is for its slug and velocity is rated at 2.7 x 10¹⁴ Joules. Rounded off that is a Petajoule but even rounding down to 10¹⁴ a Gigajoule's order of magnitude is 10⁹. So help me if remember my scientific notation properly that is along the lines of 100,000 times difference.

That is the standard for a UNSC shipboard MAC, which the wiki goes onto explain a Covenant vessels shields can tank multiple impacts from. Ergo by your own rating Imperial Lances are well within the tolerance level of Covenant shielding being several orders of magnitude weaker then weapons they routinely bear the brunt of.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm also curious where the gigajoules figure comes from, though all this line of argument is proving to me is that science fiction writers (Star Wars, Star Trek, Halo, 40K, whatever) should never be allowed near a number pad, because they have no sense of scale whatsoever.

[deuterio12]

Originally Posted by Anecronwashere

That go down when hit by a few metal slugs...
If I hit someone in Legendary with that big as Beam Weapon will it's shields go down? What happens if they take 2-3 hits?

Lasguns (titled Flashlights due to their being Weak compared to other weapons) are those Beam Cannons on semi-auto/auto

Lasguns are weak, point. When 40K first came out they were claimed to be good as military rifles. Aka our guns from multiple decades ago.

And then when you check Imperial Guard novels, taking cover behind the bodies of unarmored heretics always works to stop lasgun shots. Whereas our real-world hand rifles can easily punch trough multiple human bodies.

[Forum Explorer]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

I'm also curious where the gigajoules figure comes from, though all this line of argument is proving to me is that science fiction writers (Star Wars, Star Trek, Halo, 40K, whatever) should never be allowed near a number pad, because they have no sense of scale whatsoever.

Agreed. The more impressive number is the 10-30 meters of Armor ignored anyways. Also with their shields being weak to lances (and other energy weapons) and their shorter engagement ranges it looks like the Imperium would be able to pick off all but the Supercarriers which look to be roughly equivilant to a Space Station with 7 lance shots. Harder to deal with but do-able. Also the sort of thing that would attract Space Marines or Mechanicus ships.

[Triscuitable]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

I'm also curious where the gigajoules figure comes from, though all this line of argument is proving to me is that science fiction writers (Star Wars, Star Trek, Halo, 40K, whatever) should never be allowed near a number pad, because they have no sense of scale whatsoever.

Back to the Future, which got time travel right in almost every aspect, failed to represent a gigawatt. 1.21 gigawatts from plutonium? Or recycled matter? That won't work. Especially considering the average nuclear power plant produces about 5 to 6 gigawatts.

Either that, or Doc got his hands on some really, really good plutonium.

[Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Triscuitable

Were they trained to specifically fight the Covenant? Do they know what Covenant weaponry is capable of? Can they recognize the roles of Covenant infantry on sight? Can they pilot Covenant vehicles?

Also note that there were a lot more Spartans than just the Master Chief (not "Master Chief". As awesome as that sounds, it's shorthand for Master Chief Petty Officer). Chief is a Spartan II, though there were Spartan IIIs, and now even IVs. The IIs were trained from the age of six with a very small success rate, the IIIs were trained from adolescence with a higher rate of success, and the IVs are volunteers from the most notable members of squads. No training needed, just give 'em the "upgrades" and send them through UNSC Infinity simulation to teach them how to use MJOLNIR armor.

Also of note, MJOLNIR is lightweight stuff (despite it weighing half a ton) when wielded by a Spartan. It's so effective that it actually enhances body functions while providing incredibly powerful energy shields, seperate implants, and doesn't impede movement at all.

Hell, if this were a Spartan versus a Space Marine, the Spartan would more than likely win. He's got better training, less cumbersome armor, and can quite efficiently goomba-stomp their foe to death, should they try.

They also have a tendency to, y'know, wear their helmet.

{Scrubbed}

[Triscuitable]

Uh, if it's any consolation, or if I hurt your feelings, I'm sorry. I don't know what you posted, but clearly I must have offended you in some manner.

[The Glyphstone]

Oh hey, look what I just found on the Halo Wiki, on the page for Orbital Defense Platforms and their Super MACs:

These cannons fire a 3000-ton ferric-tungsten round at 119916983.2 meters per second,[4] impacting with a massive amount of kinetic energy, equal to approximately 5325 megatons of energy.

So, one of the two numbers we have (either for the basic MAC or the Super MAC) is horribly horribly wrong. Is there a mathematician or physicist in the house?

Ignore me, I got Gigatons and Gigajoules mixed up.

[Triscuitable]

I like how Halo fails in physics just as much as Warhammer.

[The Glyphstone]

Warhammer doesn't really try to pretend its physics is realistic, though, which is a small technical point in its favor.

[ChaosLord29]

Yeah, guess I never should have tried to bring in numbers XD

Anyway, I think the point that Imperial Lance weapons routinely melt through ships double and triple the size of Covenant Cruisers should count for a lot in how any space battles will work out.

[Triscuitable]

Originally Posted by ChaosLord29

Yeah, guess I never should have tried to bring in numbers XD

Anyway, I think the point that Imperial Lance weapons routinely melt through ships double and triple the size of Covenant Cruisers should count for a lot in how any space battles will work out.

Considering it's been previously established that the Covenant isn't outright stupid, they wouldn't engage the Imperium in space combat. If they got put into that position, they'd enter a slipspace jump as quickly as possible to get from one place to the next. While not as efficient, it's still better as an escape plan, as slipspace travel is more akin to teleportation rather than moving unbelievably fast.

You're not going to get a space battle with them, as nice as that sounds . They're going to engage the Imperium where they have the advantage. Namely, where they can set up cannon fodder at the front lines, forcing the Imperium to waste their resources on little punks like Grunts and Skirmishers without knowing of the other, more obvious threats while Jackals take them apart with long-range weaponry, Brutes put on pressure with heavy weaponry, Elites flank and penetrate defenses with effective anti-shield weaponry (plasma is made to take down shields, not armor; however, it's still effective against armor), and of course, the incredibly devastating Gravity Hammer and Energy Sword.

Note: the Energy Sword blocks bullets. The Gravity Hammer displaces gravitational fields at such a rapid pace that the bends would seem like a sneeze in comparison to the pain you'd have to deal with.

[Creed]

Yeah, in my eyes, I, along with a few buddies and a case of energy drinks, kicked the Covenant's butt six ways to Sunday. Four guys basically soloed their entire military power over and over and over. I'd give them almost no odds against the Imperium. Just talking sheer manpower, the Covies are just not capable of doing anything except reaching a draw by wiping out sentient life with a Halo ring, if you even gave them a Halo as a resource and the Imperium didn't just blow it up faster that you can say "Master Chief".

[Starbuck_II]

Originally Posted by Creed

Yeah, in my eyes, I, along with a few buddies and a case of energy drinks, kicked the Covenant's butt six ways to Sunday. Four guys basically soloed their entire military power over and over and over. I'd give them almost no odds against the Imperium. Just talking sheer manpower, the Covies are just not capable of doing anything except reaching a draw by wiping out sentient life with a Halo ring, if you even gave them a Halo as a resource and the Imperium didn't just blow it up faster that you can say "Master Chief".

What if Covanent had all the spartans on their side (and I mean, every Spartan that ever existed)?

[WitchSlayer]

Originally Posted by Starbuck_II

What if Covanent had all the spartans on their side (and I mean, every Spartan that ever existed)?

Well the Greeks wouldn't help that much, and the supersoldiers are too few in comparison to the Space Marines.

[Brother Oni]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Warhammer doesn't really try to pretend its physics is realistic, though, which is a small technical point in its favor.

Given that there are several places and factions in 40K that treat the laws of physics as minor suggestions, it's understandable.

[Triscuitable]

Originally Posted by Creed

Yeah, in my eyes, I, along with a few buddies and a case of energy drinks, kicked the Covenant's butt six ways to Sunday. Four guys basically soloed their entire military power over and over and over. I'd give them almost no odds against the Imperium. Just talking sheer manpower, the Covies are just not capable of doing anything except reaching a draw by wiping out sentient life with a Halo ring, if you even gave them a Halo as a resource and the Imperium didn't just blow it up faster that you can say "Master Chief".

Consider this:

• The Covenant in the games is not the Covenant we are basing this argument on. Rather, we're paying attention to lore rather than whatever difficulty you played on.
• There was only one person fighting the Covenant, not four. And he happened to have extraordinary luck.
• He was also trained from six to fight specifically this force.

[Forum Explorer]

Originally Posted by Triscuitable

Considering it's been previously established that the Covenant isn't outright stupid, they wouldn't engage the Imperium in space combat. If they got put into that position, they'd enter a slipspace jump as quickly as possible to get from one place to the next. While not as efficient, it's still better as an escape plan, as slipspace travel is more akin to teleportation rather than moving unbelievably fast.

You're not going to get a space battle with them, as nice as that sounds . They're going to engage the Imperium where they have the advantage. Namely, where they can set up cannon fodder at the front lines, forcing the Imperium to waste their resources on little punks like Grunts and Skirmishers without knowing of the other, more obvious threats while Jackals take them apart with long-range weaponry, Brutes put on pressure with heavy weaponry, Elites flank and penetrate defenses with effective anti-shield weaponry (plasma is made to take down shields, not armor; however, it's still effective against armor), and of course, the incredibly devastating Gravity Hammer and Energy Sword.

Note: the Energy Sword blocks bullets. The Gravity Hammer displaces gravitational fields at such a rapid pace that the bends would seem like a sneeze in comparison to the pain you'd have to deal with.

The problem being that the Covenant lose even worse on the ground. The Imperial Guard generally have the resources and ability to wipe out anything the Covenant can throw at them. Particularly the tanks. Such as the Leman Russ for front line or the scarily accurate Basilisk. They even have dedicated air corps in Valkyries and Vendettas which drop off more units to help out flank. All of the Imperium's tanks tend to have better armor and weapons then anything seen from the Covenant.

[DaedalusMkV]

Originally Posted by Triscuitable

[*]He was also trained from six to fight specifically this force.[/list]

Lies!

He was trained from six to fight rebels. The UNSC didn't even know the Covenant existed until after the Spartan IIs first couple of combat missions. Hell, the Mjolnir armour wasn't even developed until years after the war started and the shield generator addition came at basically the end of the war. Not that it matters, because the Covenant's ground forces are not sufficiently different from what the Imperium is used to that Space Marines would have trouble adapting. A single squad of Marines is going to curb-stomp the Covenant's ground forces just as hard as the Spartans do. Which is entirely irrelevent, because this versus is decided entirely in space, just as the UNSC-Covenant war was in every location except on a Halo array, which do not come into play by the stipulations of this versus matchup.

Daedalurker, away!

[Triscuitable]

Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV

Lies!

He was trained from six to fight rebels. The UNSC didn't even know the Covenant existed until after the Spartan IIs first couple of combat missions. Hell, the Mjolnir armour wasn't even developed until years after the war started and the shield generator addition came at basically the end of the war. Not that it matters, because the Covenant's ground forces are not sufficiently different from what the Imperium is used to that Space Marines would have trouble adapting. A single squad of Marines is going to curb-stomp the Covenant's ground forces just as hard as the Spartans do. Which is entirely irrelevent, because this versus is decided entirely in space, just as the UNSC-Covenant war was in every location except on a Halo array, which do not come into play by the stipulations of this versus matchup.

Daedalurker, away!

Yeah, I kind of recalled after about five seconds that the Covenant didn't show up until about 2 years after he was deployed. Even then, his training shifted immediately to take them down. Also worthy of note is how the majority of the Spartan IIs and IIIs died.

Originally Posted by Forum Explorer

The problem being that the Covenant lose even worse on the ground. The Imperial Guard generally have the resources and ability to wipe out anything the Covenant can throw at them. Particularly the tanks. Such as the Leman Russ for front line or the scarily accurate Basilisk. They even have dedicated air corps in Valkyries and Vendettas which drop off more units to help out flank. All of the Imperium's tanks tend to have better armor and weapons then anything seen from the Covenant.

Do they have active camo? Or what about the fact that the Covenant could have all their forces on the ground much sooner than the Imperium?

Also, you can't just say "the Imperium can beat the Covenant because they've got better stuff". Explain what weapons they have that are so much better than a bullet blocking sword and gravity field displacing hammer. Y'know, the incredibly easy to manufacture weapons of which the only restriction is whether or not you are allowed to hold one.

[The Glyphstone]

Uh...ordinary metal swords can block bullets, depending on caliber. You just have to get the sword in the way of the bullet, and that's a question of reflexes, not weaponry. You hand a Grunt an energy sword and I doubt he's going to be going anything except dying, regardless of his weapon's bullet-blocking abilities.