Why do wizards hate sorcerers?

[Chaotic Queen]

I get that sorcerers are born with magic and wizards have to learn it, but why do wizards act like they're the top of the foodchain? They should be praising/fearing sorcerers who reach their level without even trying!

In real life, I'm a good fighter because I trained myself to be like that. If I ever met a gifted figher, I'd be incredibly honored to meet them!

Frankly, being a sorcerer seems like a gift and deserves far more respect than a wizard. And there's also the fact that Xykon (a sorcerer) completely trampled Vaarsuvius (a wizard) without even trying.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html

[Chaotic Queen]

PS: Whatever happened to Banjulhu?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0085.html

[factotum]

What makes you think wizards *do* hate sorcerers? Everything in the comic indicates that wizards consider themselves to be superior to sorcerers, but that doesn't imply or require hate. As for why that might be, wizards have intelligence as their main casting stat while sorcerers use charisma, so it's entirely possible to be a total idiot and still be a powerful sorcerer--this is probably why wizards in the setting don't consider sorcerers to be proper opponents.

[B. Dandelion]

Well, you can't spell "learn" without "earn". They see their magic as "worth more" as a result of the effort they had to put into it.

Imagine a self-made rich person meeting a lottery winner. The one had to study hard, work long hours, build things up from scratch, take risks, suffer setbacks, etc. The other... picked some numbers and got lucky. Does the self-made rich person admire and feel honored to meet the lotto winner because of their wealth?

[Emperordaniel]

Originally Posted by Chaotic Queen

PS: Whatever happened to Banjulhu?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0085.html

He still slumbers away, forgotten by all but a few forumers. Centuries from now, a secret society of dark priests from the underworld of the morally justified threads will seek to awaken his unholy power, and when He returns, all will hear His call...the call of BANJULHU!

There's your answer.

[Anarion]

Hate isn't really the right word. I think it's more like resentment, and maybe even jealously at some level, though most wizards would never admit that to themselves.

If a wizard were making the argument, she would point out a few things
1) Magic is dangerous, and without long hours of study and care to learn to wield it properly, sorcerers are likely to be reckless and foolhardy.
2) Sorcerer magic is highly limited in known spells. Wizard power is limited only by what the wizard can find to study. This allows wizards to better prepare for any encounter compared to sorcerers.
3) Sorcerers are quite often less intelligent than wizards (thanks to having mechanically different casting stats).

All this adds up, for most wizards in the OoTS 'verse at any rate, to a feeling among wizards that sorcerers don't deserve their powers.

Of course, from the sorcerer perspective, the wizards are a bunch of elitists who want to keep everyone out of the club that hasn't gone through the proper hazing rituals.

[Winter]

I think the end of the story is "They got for free what I sacrificed my life for!"

[SoC175]

Originally Posted by Anarion

Hate isn't really the right word. I think it's more like resentment, and maybe even jealously at some level, though most wizards would never admit that to themselves.

If a wizard were making the argument, she would point out a few things
1) Magic is dangerous, and without long hours of study and care to learn to wield it properly, sorcerers are likely to be reckless and foolhardy.
2) Sorcerer magic is highly limited in known spells. Wizard power is limited only by what the wizard can find to study. This allows wizards to better prepare for any encounter compared to sorcerers.
3) Sorcerers are quite often less intelligent than wizards (thanks to having mechanically different casting stats).

4. Wizards know what they are doing on the broader scale. Sorcerers, due to the their typical stats, are just not good at understanding magic. They can cast those spell that came to them naturally, but they're not able to understand complex magic, solve magical problems or create new magic due to their lower spell-craft and knowledge (arcana) skills.

While the wizard might be able to solve the magical riddle preventing your party from venturing deeper into the ancient ruin, a sorcerer can stand before it just as clueless as the fighter if it's not just happen that one of his known spells can be used to blast through.

[Winter]

Originally Posted by SoC175

While the wizard might be able to solve the magical riddle preventing your party from venturing deeper into the ancient ruin, a sorcerer can stand before it just as clueless as the fighter if it's not just happen that one of his known spells can be used to blast through.

That cannot be it for the general case: Sorcerers also have spellcraft and knowledge(arcana) as class skill.

It should also be pointed out that this "rivalry" is something we are seeing in Rich's interpretation of the rules. The rules as written do not mention this.

I think the rivalry makes sense due to all(!) the stuff outlined above. There's a lot reasons for "academic" wizards to look down upon those arcane Rainmans (who in turn have the right to feel looked down upon).
I always saw Rich's interpretation of Wizards as elitist university professors.

[Chaotic Queen]

Originally Posted by Emperordaniel

He still slumbers away, forgotten by all but a few forumers. Centuries from now, a secret society of dark priests from the underworld of the morally justified threads will seek to awaken his unholy power, and when He returns, all will hear His call...the call of BANJULHU!

There's your answer.

Most awesome response ever! V(^.^)^

[Chaotic Queen]

Hey, I just noticed something about Banjulhu! For two years I thought he pulled a second puppet out of his pocket, sort of like with Giggles. I just barely noticed that he actually casted a spell to transform the puppet! It's interesting what you can notice when you look at something a few times.

Also, we must prepare ourselves for the battle against the Cult of Giggulhu!

[SoC175]

Originally Posted by Winter

That cannot be it for the general case: Sorcerers also have spellcraft and knowledge(arcana) as class skill.

Yes, but wizards have the higher ability mod on it. And with the higher number of skillpoints that comes along with it are able to cover a broader field.

A sorcerer might have spellcraft and knowledge (arcana) with lower mods in both than the wizard, but the wizard can have knowledge (the planes) and knowledge (religion) and a host of other skills related to work out planar portals, magical bindings, etc.

[Darkfyre99]

Originally Posted by Winter

That cannot be it for the general case: Sorcerers also have spellcraft and knowledge(arcana) as class skill.

True, but a Sorcerer's most important Stat is Charisma, while a Wizard's most important stat is Intelligence, which means that the average wizard is going to be better at those skills (being intelligence based) than the average sorcerer, especially given that the intelligence skill may not be a priority for a sorcerer, given the value of Dexterity and Constitution to a class that only gets d4 hit points and doesn't wear armor. Even Wisdom may be a higher priority for a combat oriented Sorcerer than Intelligence, just as Charisma may be a low priority for a Wizard.

Furthermore, the number of ranks a character gets is based on Intelligence. And there are more magical branches of knowledge besides arcana, as well as the Decipher Script skill, which are class skills for a Wizard, but not a Sorcerer. Finally, there is the fact that there are other skills that may compete with the limited number of skill ranks available to both classes, such as Craft (Alchemy), Concentration, or for the Sorcerer, Bluff.

All in all, a Wizard will have more ranks in those skills than a Sorcerer will, and also gets a larger bonus. If a riddle requiring Knowledge (arcana) has a high DC, a Wizard will have a much higher chance of success than a Sorcerer of the same level would.

[Winter]

Originally Posted by Darkfyre99

True, but a Sorcerer's most important Stat is Charisma, while a Wizard's most important stat is Intelligence, which means that the average wizard is going to be better at those skills (being intelligence based) than the average sorcerer, especially given that the intelligence skill may not be a priority for a sorcerer, given the value of Dexterity and Constitution to a class that only gets d4 hit points and doesn't wear armor.

Obviously, yes. But the point still stands: judging from the rules, the difference is not the knowledge here.

That classes that get two points per level + int are broken in regard to RP and development of more than "I can do one thing" in 3.x is another matter.

[Chaotic Queen]

But what about the fact that Xykon mopped the floor with Vaarsuvius while she was pumped up on wizard steroids? I think it all depends on the dedication.

[Winter]

Originally Posted by Chaotic Queen

But what about the fact that Xykon mopped the floor with Vaarsuvius while she was pumped up on wizard steroids? I think it all depends on the dedication.

It was a Power That Does Not Compare To Normal Rules. It also happened within a story, not a real game. And even more important, the point here was explicitly that the casting-power of a character does not tell anything about what it actually can achive.
It's about the "sum of the things", level, skills, saves, dedication, extra stuff, eq, it all adds up. So if anything, the "what does Xykon's win tell us?" supports anything I wrote (e.g. that sorcs in general are broken in the sense of rules and power because they get casting, but basically nothing else).

[Gift Jeraff]

They're envious of their "charisma," if you know what I mean.

[Anarion]

Originally Posted by Winter

Obviously, yes. But the point still stands: judging from the rules, the difference is not the knowledge here.

That classes that get two points per level + int are broken in regard to RP and development of more than "I can do one thing" in 3.x is another matter.

While saying 3.x is broken is a valid point, part of the interpretation here is related to that brokenness. Wizards, due to the mechanics, are actually smarter than sorcerers. That means that even with the same skills, wizards are better at interpreting magic and solving puzzles than sorcerers. If you want to use that as a reason to call the system broken, you can, but in context, it's also a reason for wizards to be elitist and say that they're better than sorcerers.

Also, I suspect that being bookish nerds, many wizards are particularly resentful that sorcerers can be so sociable and make friends so easily.

Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff

They're envious of their "charisma," if you know what I mean.

And that.

[Andre]

Why, is there someone who doesn't hate sorcerers?

[Chaotic Queen]

Originally Posted by Andre

Why, is there someone who doesn't hate sorcerers?

I think sorcerers are awesome! It's like in Skyrim, how anyone can learn to shout with years of practice, but the Dragonborn can learn instantly!

[recluso]

Xykon feels every wizard looks down on him.

It is start of darkness, where the "Wizard >>> Sorceror" idea is consistedly presented; as a very common yet still personal opinion, and it is always said in the presence of Xykon, so in all cases it could be meant to insult the specific sorceror Xykon.

Maybe it is just a lot of wizards overestimate themselves; With few contact you don't learn to appreciate others well.

V is happy with Jephton being spliced upon her. Jephton, Haerta and Ganonron seem to work together well and respect each other.

V is very hostile to but not condescending towards Samatha and the Black Dragon, at least not due to their sorcerer levels.
In oots 677, The drawmij messenger tried to find and use anti-sorceror prejudice in V. That didn't work. He had to resort to the warlock-insult.

[theNater]

Originally Posted by Chaotic Queen

I think sorcerers are awesome! It's like in Skyrim, how anyone can learn to shout with years of practice, but the Dragonborn can learn instantly!

This is actually generally really frightening. You'll note that many of the shouts can destroy objects and kill people. Because they don't know what they can do, a careless Dragonborn can cause a lot of harm to people who really can't defend themselves. A person who studies the effects before learning such abilities may cause trouble on purpose, but someone who just up and has them is an accident waiting to happen.

Also note that sorcerer powers don't care who gets them. Bullies, people bent on petty revenge, and psychopaths are just as likely to be sorcerers as anybody else. It is commonly believed that training as a wizard will include steps taken on the part of the teacher to ensure that such individuals do not progress far enough to become dangerous.

[snikrept]

I imagine a wizard looks at a sorcerer like he would any other kind of magical beast with spell-like abilities. Sorcerer has a human form, is all.

[Andre]

Originally Posted by Chaotic Queen

I think sorcerers are awesome! It's like in Skyrim, how anyone can learn to shout with years of practice, but the Dragonborn can learn instantly!

I agree with neither.

At any rate, previously I was joking as usual, so it's all good.

[IW Judicator]

Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff
They're envious of their "charisma," if you know what I mean.

Possible, but probably not the most likely scenario. As we are shown in Start of Darkness

Spoiler

Fyron suggested that Sorcerers were compensating for that, even though their Charisma should give them something pretty impressive under the hood (per Haley's statement when Elan was running around naked)

Jealousy? Perhaps. But to me it feels a bit more like a Wizard's arrogance rearing its ugly head again.

That being said, if you think about it a little, Wizards are also rather hypocritical. In order to be a half-way competent magic user, a Wizard needs a decent start up Intelligence, something that doesn't come by particularly often. While Intelligence can certainly be improved through years of hard study and training, there's a limit to how much the average person could accomplish with average Intelligence (by the rules, they would by lucky to figure out how to cast cantrips). Wizardry, much like Sorcery, requires a certain level of innate talent. Otherwise you're watching half your life run by, only to then be able to start doing what others could do after only a few years because of their innate talent (be it Intelligence or Charisma).

[Eldariel]

Mostly Wizards just consider Sorcerers inferior. Like was said before, Sorcerers are limited and they can never learn more than their restricted list of spells. They also don't understand Magic nearly on the same level (yes, K: Arcana is a class skill for both but it's Int-based so Wizards have a natural advantage and Sorcerers don't automatically even have enough skill points to take ranks in it; generally Concentration and Spellcraft take their 2 points per level) and they are just plain dumb by comparison.

Sorcerers have the gift but to Wizards they seem like kids dabbling with toys they don't understand; they have the ability to use magic but they lack everything else associated to it. Of course, it's not universal for Wizards; Wizards are individuals too after all, just like Sorcerers. But generally, if Wizards do overlook Sorcerers, the reasons tend to draw to the Sorcerers' restrictions and lack of intellect.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff

They're envious of their "charisma," if you know what I mean.

In a lot of ways, that's the big logic hole. Successful sorcerors are likeable, that's pretty much what having a high charisma means. You wouldn't know that from the way people are said to react to them, or to be fair, from the way they are usually played.

[The Pilgrim]

"So, that imbecile who is barely literated enough to read common, has got for free what it has taken me years of hard work and study, and also CHICKS DIG HIM MORE!!!"

I think the above pretty much settles the issue. Specialy the chick thing (Sorcerers have CHA as primary attribute and Bluff as a class skill, while for a Wizard it's a dump stat and a cross-class skill).

[Sorator]

To be fair, I don't know that there's always hatred involved. But otherwise, yeah, the person who intensively studied for decades to wield magical power will generally look down upon those who were gifted with it at birth, don't entirely know how it works, and are generally not as intelligent or as skilled (be they sorcerers or warlocks, either).

I want to know what the occasional Ultimate Magus (sorcerer/wizard) thinks on the subject.

[Marthian]

Something to note: Sorcerers make better Liches :P

No really, if you don't know them, Liches are undead, and from my understanding: the undead use charisma instead of constitution, which really is a big deal.