League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

Silverraptor · 09-19-2012, 01:26 AM

League of Legends XXXVIII:
Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

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TechnOkami · 09-19-2012, 01:52 AM

Wut... I don't... wut...

Math_Mage · 09-19-2012, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TechnOkami

Wut... I don't... wut...

Silver interpreted Terribad's name as a format to be used for a more specific name. *shrug*

TechnOkami · 09-19-2012, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Math_Mage

Silver interpreted Terribad's name as a format to be used for a more specific name. *shrug*

...

...

fish...

sonofzeal · 09-19-2012, 04:28 AM

Yyyyeah, I think the original was less confusing. No offence to Silverraptor's enthusiasm.

Neoseanster · 09-19-2012, 05:00 AM

Took some time off from League for GW2, and it looks like I missed a full thread. Huh.

I did a random ranked game tonight to avert elo decay and ended up with Swain. I have become terrible (well, more terrible) at last hitting, but oh good grief is he stronger than Karthus if you don't get hit by every Q. Even if it was a fairly bad Karthus (tear of the goddess and catalyst as first two items? @.@), by level 7 or so he would just die from full if he got close enough for me to EQR, even if I missed my W.

I rather like the world championship hotfix patch notes. Lovely QoL buffs for Caitlyn, Galio, and Miss Fortune, all of whom I greatly enjoy... I can't count the times I've died as Caitlyn because I wasted a net while rooted. Saw the AP ratio nerf on Rengar's W coming, but I don't think it'll make AP Rengar unviable. The removal of the casting time and being able to cast it while moving will add a lot to his reliability. And hey, maybe now people will actually play AD Rengar.

I pretty much was absent since her release, how'd Syndra end up turning out?

TechnOkami · 09-19-2012, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neoseanster

I pretty much was absent since her release, how'd Syndra end up turning out?

As far as I know, she has a high skill cap, that when reached is very rewarding but not necessarily cripplingly overpowering.

Also.. could you give me tips on how to Swain? He seems to have fallen out of my grasp as of late in terms of familiarity and power.

Dallas-Dakota · 09-19-2012, 05:59 AM

How I play Swain.

Spells: Flash+Ignite
Masteries: 21-0-9, going for full AP/magic damage in Offense and mana(regen) and buff mastery in Utility.
Skill: Prioritise: R>E>Q>W

Start either boots+3 or Blue Crystal+1. Depending on how hard you anticipate the opponent to be.
Rush Catalyst. Finish boots 2(Mpen) or ROA, roa if you can get it first.

For laning, land as much safe E's as you can. Throw in a AA after it, it's damage will also be amplified by your E.

Are you OOM or low on mana and pushed? Don't B just yet, just last hit. Your passive gives you back mana if you last hit!

Throw down a combo if you think you can either kill your opponent or the game is in a situation where you can make him B and go gank a sidelane. If one of your sidelanes is pushed or unwarded ganking should be reasonably doable since you have a nice range on your snare. If they're (very) pushed, see if your teammates can initiate first, so that the enemy will blow their flash/escape. Your spells are reliant on a opponent not flashing out of your snare/grasp.

Then build Hat/Hourglass. Hourglass first if you're doing badly or one of their phys is getting fed.

Get spellvamp if you're having sustained combats. It will make much more durable.(Having your ult on constantly for so long is very taxing and not worth it. Try and use it only if you're really taking damage, going for the kill or think you're going to need the health in a bit.

Standard combo: W>E>Q. Turn on R when you feel like it/described above.

Optional items that are very good on Swain: Spirit Visage, Athene's Unholy Grail, Banshees Veil, Guardian Angel.
Optional: Vs Soraka, rush Morello's tome.(Soraka is one of the few people who can reliably beat Swain in lane if they're good. Just try and last hit as much as you can untill you hit 6, when you can outheal her. )
Optional: If you're having trouble chasing, Shurelya's. It may sound weird, but you're a slow champion who likes to stick to their target. Do this if you have enough money but trouble chasing.

LordShotGun · 09-19-2012, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neoseanster

I pretty much was absent since her release, how'd Syndra end up turning out?

Overly complicated for not much reward. In other words, I have never felt threatened by a Syndra in lane or in team fights.

World Champion Hot Fixes are out. Buffs to Cait, Ms.Fortune, and Rengar. Nerfs to Vlad and Yorick.

Cait got piltover peace maker buffed

Ms. Fortune got her ultimate and passive buffed

Rengar got his ultimate and passive buffed

Vlad got tides of blood's base values nerfed a tiny bit but the AP ratio is the same

Yorick's ghouls no longer block pathing, are slower at early levels and his W costs more mana.

aethernox · 09-19-2012, 07:34 AM

Threadname makes no sense zzz.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neoseanster

I pretty much was absent since her release, how'd Syndra end up turning out?

There's something extraordinarily wrong with Syndra, and I find this "she's just hard to play" nonsense to be lacking. There's literally no excuse for a champion to have a 26% winrate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kotarus

I'd like to be added to the list:

Server: NA
Forum Name: Kotarus
League Name: Adrameleck

I like to play League to an unhealthy degree. Already level 30, just throwing that out there.

In context to the current discussion; there aren't enough supports around. I'm really good at it, I own most of the viable ones, and I enjoy it. Too bad its not a very good way to raise ELO.

Silver, I didn't get around to adding this kid to the first post between a job/Borderlands/a new thread, so be a dear and include him for me.

Eldariel · 09-19-2012, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aethernox

There's something extraordinarily wrong with Syndra, and I find this "she's just hard to play" nonsense to be lacking. There's literally no excuse for a champion to have a 26% winrate.

Hey, Rengar had like no winrate either until people figured him out. It's worth noting that M5 has been playing him as a jungler AD. I think they'll be ecstatic with the hotfix

Tho yeah, Syndra feels kinda Xerathish; really low damage outside ult. Further, everything she does is kinda skillshot (aside from said ult) and her stuff is just plain hard to land so it'll take a long time for people to figure her out.

sonofzeal · 09-19-2012, 07:53 AM

New personal milestone: instant triple kill, as Morgana.

Is it just me, or does Morgana play like an AP carry, but fit more into the Support role overall? And why is her AA range so piddly? My first game as her someone else called mid so I was laning with Ashe, and let me tell you getting even a single CS was an uphill battle, especially laning against another Ashe and a Lux.

Also, how viable would a team of all support-tagged characters be? Say... Morgana, Teemo, Kayle, Taric, Lux?

aethernox · 09-19-2012, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eldariel

Hey, Rengar had like no winrate either until people figured him out. It's worth noting that M5 has been playing him as a jungler AD. I think they'll be ecstatic with the hotfix

There's a difference between 37% winrate and 26%. 37% is actually somewhat believable. League seemingly tends to have champions at the higher and lower ends of the W/L spectrum compared to DotA 2 et al, and 37% is something we've seen a few times.

26%, though? How does that even happen?

Real thoughts on Syndra:
Why is her range so low, why does her Q do so little damage for so much mana, why does her W take so long, and why does her E shoot balls in the most random of directions?

I think that being forced into CDR and/or mana itemization for Q spam really hurts Syndra, too. Even Zyra hits the CDR cap with nothing but W and Blue Buff, and she doesn't even need it as much as Syndra.

Eldariel · 09-19-2012, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aethernox

There's a difference between 37% winrate and 26%. 37% is actually somewhat believable. League seemingly tends to have champions at the higher and lower ends of the W/L spectrum compared to DotA 2 et al, and 37% is something we've seen a few times.

26%, though? How does that even happen?

Real thoughts on Syndra:
Why is her range so low, why does her Q do so little damage for so much mana, why does her W take so long, and why does her E shoot balls in the most random of directions?

I think that being forced into CDR and/or mana itemization for Q spam really hurts Syndra, too. Even Zyra hits the CDR cap with nothing but W and Blue Buff, and she doesn't even need it as much as Syndra.

Clearly Riot was on a roll with Zyra, Jayce & Diana in a row (two already nerfed and Jayce an insanely high priority pick) already so they needed a combobreaker. And Rengar wasn't enough 'cause he snuck away.

Djinn_in_Tonic · 09-19-2012, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aethernox

Real thoughts on Syndra:
Why is her range so low, why does her Q do so little damage for so much mana, why does her W take so long, and why does her E shoot balls in the most random of directions?

I think that being forced into CDR and/or mana itemization for Q spam really hurts Syndra, too. Even Zyra hits the CDR cap with nothing but W and Blue Buff, and she doesn't even need it as much as Syndra.

I feel Syndra has some pretty large issues though. Her kit feels clunky: I'd expect a character with an ability like Karthus's Q or Cass's Q. I *want* to be able to lay out a zone of control, but Syndra currently can't really have that available at all times due to her high mana costs, meaning she has a warm-up period...on a burst mage. That seems awkward to me.

She also just doesn't really have a passive, which I find uncomfortable. I think they could have just given her the passive abilities as a default without changing much about her kit: the level 5 bonuses don't feel significant enough.

Honestly, I'd have *loved* to see her Q become a low-damage harassing tool with a zone attached to the ball: something like 50/70/90/110/130 (+.55 AP) damage [slightly lower than Karthus's multi-target Q damage, but with a better ratio] that begins a zone .5-1 seconds after placement, slowing those in it by 15-20%. Possibly add some further damage (20/35/50/65/80 +.2 AP or something) for each second spent in the sphere's zone. Stick it on a low (about 2 seconds?) cooldown, and allow Syndra to create a constant zone of low-damage harass and minor CC. This would give her more ability to move into position to utilize her E more efficiently, as well as some more teamfight presence.

With this in mind, I'd give her W a tweak for a better feel: increase the pull range, and add damage in a line as you pull the victim to you, and then the nuke + slow as you throw it. You can now plan some moves better: Q a bit behind your opponent to slow their escape, pull a minion through them with W, and toss it back at them for damage. The clunkiness of the W is now a bit more justified, as you can at least set up some likely damage at the beginning of the combo.

Her E should still be fine with this kit, because you'll have more ability to control sphere placement mid-fight, and thus won't need to run around like crazy for better positioning.

For her Ultimate, you'd have to adjust the damage per sphere, as you'll have more spheres out at a time. I'd also love a change to add damage along the sphere's travel path: a sort of Talon Ultimate effect targeted at an enemy's location.

Finally, gut her passive. That effect isn't that strong to begin with, so just make that stuff standard, or forget about it completely. Maybe make her passive a speed boost when within X units of a sphere, so she's encouraged to fight in and around her spheres, and further encouraged to use them as zoning and control rather than just as damage.

Ivellius · 09-19-2012, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonofzeal

New personal milestone: instant triple kill, as Morgana.

...

Also, how viable would a team of all support-tagged characters be? Say... Morgana, Teemo, Kayle, Taric, Lux?

I don't know about that team so much, but an "all-support" team would be easily viable. I think you want Kayle as AD carry, and out of that group it'd be hard to have a decent jungler. You're probably looking at Taric or Morgana there.

Here's decent lane roles for such a team:
Top - Teemo, Nidalee, Shen, Kayle (Karma? Lulu?)
Mid - Karma, Soraka, Lux, Morgana, Galio, Zilean, Lulu
Carry - Kayle (loosely Nidalee or Teemo)
Jungle - Shen, maybe Kayle, though you'd rather have her elsewhere; I also think Karma can jungle
Support - This one's just too easy

Some combination of those ought to work easily enough. Most supports are secondarily mages, so mid lane has a lot of options (probably anyone except Taric or Shen, honestly). The weakest role is AD carry, but Kayle can do that.

Talesin · 09-19-2012, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonofzeal

Also, how viable would a team of all support-tagged characters be? Say... Morgana, Teemo, Kayle, Taric, Lux?

My friends and I play all support games every so often and so far we've only lost 1 game and that was due to a DC.

Memorable games for me were with Ad Janna, Ad Lulu, Jungle Lulu and Jungle Karma (though mainly for how much that sucked). But we've played most of the support characters in most of the lanes. We try and run the support characters away from their 'natural' positions, so no AD Kayle and no Jungle Nunu. Also for the support we tend to run a non-support to just really mess the team up.

We've lost all 3 lanes in the laning phase but when it comes to grouping up and teamfighting you can't stop a team that has all the free stats from a farmed tanky Taric, an AP Ali mid who could almost 1 hit kill the enemy AD in a combo (with DFG), an Ad janna with her shield and peels on top of a support Kayle's Ult and a Lulu Ult from the jungler.

I remember HotShot complaining about Lulu top because of the utility she gets from the support tag. But this time you've got 5 of those who all hit moderately hard, but can keep each other alive for much much longer than a traditional team should be able to.

600hp from Lulu Ult, Kayle ult, 2x 200+hp shield from Janna and Lulu. Wouldn't want to try and dive that Ad carry with an unkillable alistar rampaging through the team.

Djinn_in_Tonic · 09-19-2012, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivellius

I don't know about that team so much, but an "all-support" team would be easily viable. I think you want Kayle as AD carry, and out of that group it'd be hard to have a decent jungler. You're probably looking at Taric or Morgana there.

Here's decent lane roles for such a team:
Top - Teemo, Nidalee, Shen, Kayle (Karma? Lulu?)
Mid - Karma, Soraka, Lux, Morgana, Galio, Zilean, Lulu
Carry - Kayle (loosely Nidalee or Teemo)
Jungle - Shen, maybe Kayle, though you'd rather have her elsewhere; I also think Karma can jungle
Support - This one's just too easy

Some combination of those ought to work easily enough. Most supports are secondarily mages, so mid lane has a lot of options (probably anyone except Taric or Shen, honestly). The weakest role is AD carry, but Kayle can do that.

Top: Nidalee top, definitely. She's REALLY hard to get out of there.
Mid: Since I don't consider Galio or Morgana to really be supports, I'd say mid is Karma or Lux. Probably Karma, as she can be a monster mid-game, and with a Nidalee top you'll want to really stomp the mid-game before Nid becomes useless.
Jungle: Shen. No question.
Bot Lane: I'd probably favor Kayle / Taric, for the slow + stun + armor reduction + damage, although Sona / Kayle would have a ton more poke, and might be worth picking.

...or the team above me. Totally forgot Ali existed, and the same with AD Janna.

Eldariel · 09-19-2012, 08:42 AM

We've done all-support team comps every so often with Winterwind, Bunny_of_Faith, Adumbration & co. They work extremely well. Actually, in one of those Riot vs. Pros show matches, Riot made the mistake of making Pros play an all-support team. I'm not sure if the Pros had any deaths

AD Sona is amazing and I maintain she's actually legit. Janna's AP ratios got gutted but she's still okay. She also works AD. Taric's fine AP, Alistar's great AD. Lulu is great as...anything.

Last time we ran Sona/Nidalee bot, Lulu top, Janna mid & Taric jungle. Obviously not Alistar jungle since that's just too easy.

sonofzeal · 09-19-2012, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivellius

I don't know about that team so much, but an "all-support" team would be easily viable. I think you want Kayle as AD carry, and out of that group it'd be hard to have a decent jungler. You're probably looking at Taric or Morgana there.

Here's decent lane roles for such a team:
Top - Teemo, Nidalee, Shen, Kayle (Karma? Lulu?)
Mid - Karma, Soraka, Lux, Morgana, Galio, Zilean, Lulu
Carry - Kayle (loosely Nidalee or Teemo)
Jungle - Shen, maybe Kayle, though you'd rather have her elsewhere; I also think Karma can jungle
Support - This one's just too easy

Some combination of those ought to work easily enough. Most supports are secondarily mages, so mid lane has a lot of options (probably anyone except Taric or Shen, honestly). The weakest role is AD carry, but Kayle can do that.

I think Kayle is actually listed as a T1 Jungler, and Teemo can be AD carry since other teammates have CC out the wazoo.

ZeroNumerous · 09-19-2012, 08:45 AM

I think if you're gonna do all-support, then you can't forget Alistar jungle. I'd swing something like: Top lane Nidalee, AP Janna, AD Sona, Taric Support, Jungle Cow.

sonofzeal · 09-19-2012, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talesin

Memorable games for me were with Ad Janna, Ad Lulu, Jungle Lulu and Jungle Karma (though mainly for how much that sucked).

Wait...

Wait.
Wait.

What?!?

ZeroNumerous · 09-19-2012, 08:49 AM

AD Janna has her shield steroid, move speed buff, move speed debuff, and tornado CC. Her range is a bit low though.

Eldariel · 09-19-2012, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonofzeal

Wait...

Wait.
Wait.

What?!?

You're new here, aren't you? :3

Nadevoc · 09-19-2012, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eldariel

You're new here, aren't you? :3

I think his point was that it should clearly be standard Janna supporting AD Sona.

Talesin · 09-19-2012, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadevoc

I think his point was that it should clearly be standard Janna supporting AD Sona.

Well we've played most supports as Ad with a variety of things supporting it. Ad Lulu, Ad Sona, Ad Soraka, Ad Janna, Ad Karma supported by Taric, Lux, Janna, Leona.

Every character can work as an Ad carry to some extent, they probably won't rival the traditional Ad carrys due to a lack of certain steroids/mobility enhancers/7 rockets as an ult.

Ad Janna is actually one of the better ones because she does have an AD steroid, though if you're focused its useless, has a flat movespeed steroid that enables her to run through units plus Q and R to peel for herself. Of course all of those things make her a great support because doing the above means you're not AAing 100% of the time as an AD could/should. Yeah the range thing sucks but if you're playing all support its for fun rather than seriousness anyway.

Things we've seen work well:

Top: Taric, Nunu (though I know he's played there by some), Lulu
Mid: Sona, Ali, Janna, Lulu, Nunu
Ad: Janna, Lulu, Sona
Jungle: Janna, Lulu, Karma (though only her sustain/clear speed, she's dire in all other regards)

Janna and Lulu seem to come up pretty often but I would say they have the best kits for playing most of the roles. I think someone like Taric/Nunu would be good ADs if they were ranged and Taric could be played in the jungle.

Godskook · 09-19-2012, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonofzeal

I think Kayle is actually listed as a T1 Jungler, and Teemo can be AD carry since other teammates have CC out the wazoo.

If you're referring to Stonewall's list, Kayle's T2, but that's a fairly workable tier in his list, so not much difference.

aethernox · 09-19-2012, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic

Mid: Since I don't consider Galio or Morgana to really be supports, I'd say mid is Karma or Lux. Probably Karma, as she can be a monster mid-game, and with a Nidalee top you'll want to really stomp the mid-game before Nid becomes useless.

I find this amusing because A) I don't really consider Karma to be a support and B) Galio is more viable as a support champion than Karma regardless of their tags. At least support Galio has been played by a tournament-level support player, whereas Karma has been played... by pretty much no one. :[

sonofzeal · 09-19-2012, 09:56 AM

Actually, I was thinking Lulu. Janna's AA is decidedly mediocre and her only ability that synergizes with AD play can be used on someone else, who can then apply their own abilities that also synergize. Lulu isn't much of an AD champ, and she can technically give Pix to others through her E, but it's easier not to. I've heard of AD Lulu before, and it makes some sense to me. But AD Janna just boggles me. IDK.

Eldariel · 09-19-2012, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonofzeal

Actually, I was thinking Lulu. Janna's AA is decidedly mediocre and her only ability that synergizes with AD play can be used on someone else, who can then apply their own abilities that also synergize. Lulu isn't much of an AD champ, and she can technically give Pix to others through her E, but it's easier not to. I've heard of AD Lulu before, and it makes some sense to me. But AD Janna just boggles me. IDK.

She's fast. She has a steroid. She has CC. Obviously AD Janna is the best thing ever. Her range is a bit low but hey, once you get strong enough it doesn't really matter

AD Janna works tho I prefer Bruiser Janna just 'cause that way you can get into the fray and towerdive!