League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

[Ivellius]

Originally Posted by Forrestfire

Didn't wit's end do that and they got rid of it because it countered mana-hungry champs too hard?

Yep.

Probably the closest we could ever get would be something like Veigar's ultimate, where the champion would do more damage based on the character's mana pool. No one really stacks mana all that much, though, aside from Ryze, Yorick, and Singed.

Slowing enemy cooldowns could be a really neat idea for a champion, but Riot would probably see that as toxic gameplay.

[Penguinizer]

Originally Posted by Forrestfire

Didn't wit's end do that and they got rid of it because it countered mana-hungry champs too hard?

I recall them getting rid of it because it was more or less useless or stompy. It was too bipolar.

[Volatar]

Originally Posted by sonofzeal

A champion that attacks the enemy's mana supply / cooldowns might be fun. So far I haven't run across that mechanic, but I haven't tried all champions yet.

There was an item in the game with mana burn previously but it was removed because Riot did not like it. It didn't fit in with their game design vision.

[Mephit]

Who's watching the WCG?

[LordShotGun]

What is with the sun fire cape craze lately? I have seen at least one in almost every tournament game and dyrus is streaming with it being his first major item on darius. WTF?

[Volatar]

So, anyone got an predictions for the results of the World Championships today?

I expect to see

Spoiler

AZN vs M5 in the final.

[Mephit]

Originally Posted by LordShotGun

What is with the sun fire cape craze lately? I have seen at least one in almost every tournament game and dyrus is streaming with it being his first major item on darius. WTF?

It's just a really good item on shen for splitpushing, which is why you saw it a lot. It's not bad either for some lane match-ups.

[Qwertystop]

Originally Posted by aethernox

Irelia's death animation actually involves her own blades impaling her.

It's seriously ****ing brutal.

Um... That link is just giving me a loop of blade sticks in ground > she tries to pull it out > she floats it out > sicks it back in.

Occasionally the blades separate and sometimes form an X, but that's it.

[PersonMan]

Originally Posted by Qwertystop

Um... That link is just giving me a loop of blade sticks in ground > she tries to pull it out > she floats it out > sicks it back in.

Occasionally the blades separate and sometimes form an X, but that's it.

Change the animation to 'Death'...

[Volatar]

Originally Posted by Qwertystop

Um... That link is just giving me a loop of blade sticks in ground > she tries to pull it out > she floats it out > sicks it back in.

Occasionally the blades separate and sometimes form an X, but that's it.

Dropdown box in the upper right.

[Qwertystop]

Oh...
Wow. That's...

[Eurus]

Would mana burn perhaps be more appropriate if it was %based? Something like 2% (or more, or less, or whatever) of the target's max mana per hit?

[LordShotGun]

Originally Posted by Eurus

Would mana burn perhaps be more appropriate if it was %based? Something like 2% (or more, or less, or whatever) of the target's max mana per hit?

Still useless against a large percentage of the champion base.

[Lix Lorn]

Originally Posted by Forrestfire

To be fair, she is a lich, so it makes a bit of sense.

Wait, what? xD

[Forrestfire]

Originally Posted by Lix Lorn

Wait, what? xD

iirc, she was killed on the battlefield and Soraka anchored her soul to the blades so she could stay fighting. Undead + soul bound into an object? Sounds like a lich to me.

[Lix Lorn]

...yeah, that's totally a legit reading. Cool. xD

[Godskook]

Originally Posted by LordShotGun

What is with the sun fire cape craze lately? I have seen at least one in almost every tournament game and dyrus is streaming with it being his first major item on darius. WTF?

Its not a bad item. It gives quite the unique mix of offense and multiplicative defense that's impossible to find in other items.

Originally Posted by Eurus

Would mana burn perhaps be more appropriate if it was %based? Something like 2% (or more, or less, or whatever) of the target's max mana per hit?

The problem isn't "figuring out how to balance it". The problem is "Any mana burn mechanic that was meaningfully impactful for the aggressor would be too unfun for the victim".

And if you wanted to 'temporarily' deny someone access to their mana pool, well you're basically coming up with Silence from another angle.

Originally Posted by Forrestfire

iirc, she was killed on the battlefield and Soraka anchored her soul to the blades so she could stay fighting. Undead + soul bound into an object? Sounds like a lich to me.

I'm splitting hairs here, but I don't think she's quite dead yet.

Also, I kinda want them to make her brother into a proper league champion.

[toasty]

Originally Posted by Volatar

There was an item in the game with mana burn previously but it was removed because Riot did not like it. It didn't fit in with their game design vision.

Let me expand on that:

Wits End was originally gave 42 additional magic damage that also burned an equal amount of mana. This item was originally envisioned as a counter to Mages. It made sense from a DotA background because DotA mages always had very high base mana pools. LoL at the time had a similar situation as most mages simply stacked Archangel's Staffs as there was no Deathcap.

With the release of Deathcap mages didn't really stack Archangels, and Wit's End, already considered a mediorce item... kinda fell away. However, players realized that Wits End was more useful against heroes with a low base mana pool as they could actually get rid of a player's entire mana pool. Suddenly heroes like Warwick and Ashe hated Wits End because if someone had it, they had no mana. So suddenly, an item designed to be good vs AP heroes is actually good versus... random heroes with low mana.

Basically, this was one of those unintended consequences that pop up rather often. Riot is okay with them sometimes, especially on heroes, but not so much on items. Instead, Riot nerfed Wits End and made it do what it actually is meant to do: be a really good bruiser item vs AP heroes. Then when it was still too good in that regards they nerfed it and now no one uses it.

[Silverraptor]

Originally Posted by sonofzeal

A champion that attacks the enemy's mana supply / cooldowns might be fun. So far I haven't run across that mechanic, but I haven't tried all champions yet.

Originally Posted by Forrestfire

Didn't wit's end do that and they got rid of it because it countered mana-hungry champs too hard?

Also, one of Kassadin's abilities did the same thing. It did additional damage to their mana and then restored his mana per basic attack.

Originally Posted by toasty

Let me expand on that:

Wits End was originally gave 42 additional magic damage that also burned an equal amount of mana. This item was originally envisioned as a counter to Mages. It made sense from a DotA background because DotA mages always had very high base mana pools. LoL at the time had a similar situation as most mages simply stacked Archangel's Staffs as there was no Deathcap.

With the release of Deathcap mages didn't really stack Archangels, and Wit's End, already considered a mediorce item... kinda fell away. However, players realized that Wits End was more useful against heroes with a low base mana pool as they could actually get rid of a player's entire mana pool. Suddenly heroes like Warwick and Ashe hated Wits End because if someone had it, they had no mana. So suddenly, an item designed to be good vs AP heroes is actually good versus... random heroes with low mana.

Basically, this was one of those unintended consequences that pop up rather often. Riot is okay with them sometimes, especially on heroes, but not so much on items. Instead, Riot nerfed Wits End and made it do what it actually is meant to do: be a really good bruiser item vs AP heroes. Then when it was still too good in that regards they nerfed it and now no one uses it.

And also there were a number of champions, including Tryndamiere and Garen where everyone at the time didn't know if the abilities did anything to them. In other words, did it still do 42 magic damage to them if there was no mana to drain? As a little wee summoner then, my friends and I wondered that constantly.

[Nadevoc]

Originally Posted by Silverraptor

Also, one of Kassadin's abilities did the same thing. It did additional damage to their mana and then restored his mana per basic attack.



And also there were a number of champions, including Tryndamiere and Garen where everyone at the time didn't know if the abilities did anything to them. In other words, did it still do 42 magic damage to them if there was no mana to drain? As a little wee summoner then, my friends and I wondered that constantly.

At first, Wit's End didn't do any damage if there was mana to burn. About the time the ninjas came out, it was modified so the damage and mana burn were separate (always did the 42 damage).

Wit's End was basically a hard counter to Rammus, which was really counterintuitive. It didn't kill him, but you burned out his mana very, very quickly and he'd just wander around going "....okay"

[TechnOkami]

Originally Posted by Forrestfire

iirc, she was killed on the battlefield and Soraka anchored her soul to the blades so she could stay fighting. Undead + soul bound into an object? Sounds like a lich to me.

Oh... I was thinking Lich with a capital B.

[toasty]

Can I point out that the growing level 1 strats and planning in League really, really remind me of DotA level 1s I've seen?

Wit's End was basically a hard counter to Rammus, which was really counterintuitive. It didn't kill him, but you burned out his mana very, very quickly and he'd just wander around going "....okay"

Yeah, like I said: it was this really wonky item with strange "optimal play" so Riot remade it.

Honestly, its one of the things I do like about a lot of Riot's newer champions: Heroes seem to have very dominant playstyles, even if you can build them differently, their kits FEEL good.

[Eldariel]

Originally Posted by toasty

Can I point out that the growing level 1 strats and planning in League really, really remind me of DotA level 1s I've seen?

Yeah, it was kind of a foregone conclusion that eventually LoL evolution would lead to DoTA-style play (though with automatic junglers).

[NineThePuma]

Can you define what you mean? =O

[toasty]

Originally Posted by NineThePuma

Can you define what you mean? =O

I watched a little bit of "The International 2" when it was hosted. Not a lot... but some.

Basically, lanes were not very well defined. You had obvious hero roles, but you could put your "carries" anywhere. Farm mid, trilane bot, have a dedicated jungler, have a dedicated roamer, etc.

League has had very well defined 1-1-2 lanes since the beginning of jungling, which was in Beta. Obviously bot lane has changed a lot, and that has effected top/mid lane, but basically since the invention of support+AD duo we've had the laning we've had.

But now that's changing. Lane swaps are common. Solo mid isn't necessarily a requirement anymore. You can run Duo mid, you can run duo top. I've seen some rather strange eventual lane matchups due to extended level 1s.

Extended level 1s themselves are also common in DotA. In DotA you'll often, often see very extended level 1s as team attempt to disrupt the opposing startup and determine lanematchups ASAP. The same is beginning to happen in League as teams have realized they can clear almost the entire jungle pre level 1 and create a huge advantage for themselves and use that to snowball the lanes.

edit: The best way to explain this would be to watch the Season 2 World Finals and watch the level 1s. Compare the level 1s in these games to your average level 1 in whatever elo you play at. Even Top elo players don't do this in solo queue. Compare the lane matchups as well. You'll see the same heroes, but a lot of different setups and strats.

[Duos]

Just a reminder, fellow summoners: Change is good.

[Eldariel]

Holy ****, CLG.EU vs. WE is an awesome series. Tho Yellowpete and Snoopeh are really disappointing me thus far (and Wickd trying to play Malphite and getting destroyed time after time gets a bit old).

[aethernox]

Originally Posted by Duos

Just a reminder, fellow summoners: Change is good.

Progression and evolution are good, but change isn't necessarily good on its own merits. Change for the sake of change isn't particularly valuable, in my opinion.

[toasty]

Originally Posted by aethernox

Progression and evolution are good, but change isn't necessarily good on its own merits. Change for the sake of change isn't particularly valuable, in my opinion.

This is why bot lane is still bot lane, for the most part.

@Eld: don't jix them now! Wickd is the best top laner in the world! I NEED TO BELIEVE.

[Mephit]

Originally Posted by Eldariel

Holy ****, CLG.EU vs. WE is an awesome series. Tho Yellowpete and Snoopeh are really disappointing me thus far (and Wickd trying to play Malphite and getting destroyed time after time gets a bit old).

The first games were intense. The last 20 minutes were so awful to watch.