League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

[sonofzeal]

Originally Posted by dgnslyr

The Void can do strange things to a person, you know, and Kha'Zix could very well be Kassadaughter after experiencing painful, corrupting influence of the Void. Who knows?

Given that Kha'Zix is obviously a Geiger's Alien reference, couldn't hie just have incubated in Kassadin's chest, thus making him "mother" to it?

[Eldariel]

Originally Posted by Chess435

While we're on the subject of long-range AP casters, can anyone here explain to me how to play Xerath properly?

Q > E > W. Use Q for laning harass and clear, W for landing the finish and for speedbuff. Your kill combo is ERQRR, preferably in Locus. Use map objects like walls and brushes for cover while you hit people with your EQ midgame; the important thing is breaking vision. Build standard AP.

[Silverraptor]

Originally Posted by Chess435

While we're on the subject of long-range AP casters, can anyone here explain to me how to play Xerath properly?

Originally Posted by Eldariel

Q > E > W. Use Q for laning harass and clear, W for landing the finish and for speedbuff. Your kill combo is ERQRR, preferably in Locus. Use map objects like walls and brushes for cover while you hit people with your EQ midgame; the important thing is breaking vision. Build standard AP.

Mostly this. However, I try to reserve my kill combo for EQRRQR. I can aim the line pretty well, so I can stun the opponent and get off an extra Q as it comes off cooldown.

For items, I usually start Saph crystal + 2 pots. Get a catalyst and rod of ages. Deathcap, and then standard AP items depending on what you need. MR, get abyssal or banshee's veil. They stacking MR? Get void staff. No idea what to get, Rylais and wota work well to.

Also, when being chased, don't hesitate to throw the EQ combo on your chaser. Even though you stop for a second, it gives you ample time to increase you distance from your chaser. I can't count the number of times I used that combo to escape.

[Eldariel]

Originally Posted by Silverraptor

Mostly this. However, I try to reserve my kill combo for EQRRQR. I can aim the line pretty well, so I can stun the opponent and get off an extra Q as it comes off cooldown.

For items, I usually start Saph crystal + 2 pots. Get a catalyst and rod of ages. Deathcap, and then standard AP items depending on what you need. MR, get abyssal or banshee's veil. They stacking MR? Get void staff. No idea what to get, Rylais and wota work well to.

Also, when being chased, don't hesitate to throw the EQ combo on your chaser. Even though you stop for a second, it gives you ample time to increase you distance from your chaser. I can't count the number of times I used that combo to escape.

Are you sure you need RoA? I find him kitey enough that he doesn't really need to stack up on defenses overtly much; same reason I wouldn't use Abyssal on him. RoA delays the AP quite a bit; Chalice or Doran's Rings seem to cover for his mana requirements in my experience.

I generally just Deathcap > Void on him most of the time, with a defensive slot if I deem it necessary (e.g. QSS vs. suppression).

[Drascin]

Originally Posted by Dienekes

I doubt it is. Largely because Kassadin had a daughter and they keep referring to this thing as a male. I think it was a joke about that, because Iron Stylus also said Kass is a mother.

Oh, I know. It's basically impossible. But would be cool, which is all I said .

[Godskook]

Originally Posted by sonofzeal

Her AA range is huge, but unless you're building AD Annie I'm not really going to consider that her "engagement range". Her AA damage scales slower than almost every other champion (Lulu is slowest but her passive compensates), and her attack speed is the worst, at every single level. AA makes a nice harass supplement at lvl 1, but even by lvl 4 I really wouldn't count it as a plus

Originally Posted by sonofzeal

I don't see Jax caring much about Annie's AA past lvl 3 for the above reasons, and being in melee range makes landing her W much more difficult (at least on my machine with its mediocre ping)

Potions matter in the pre-6 world. That's 150 HP.

Annie's damage to Jax at lvls:
1 - 40.7
2 - 41.57
3 - 42.4
4 - 43.19
5 - 43.94

So, over the entirety of the pre-6 laning phase, Annie takes ~4 autos to negate a potion. And with higher than a .5 AS, she can do it in less than 8 seconds, while the potions take 15 seconds to work.

Basically, Annie can whittle through a boots+3 Jax's potions in 24 seconds with just her Autos.

And that's without split-pen runes(which may be viable).

Also, while Jax v. Annie is almost never going to happen, I have played it, in ranked no less. Jax was useless and denied all laning phase, but top-lane fell apart and cascaded downward against me. Still, the point holds true for other laners who have equally small engagement zones(pre-6 Kassadin and pre-6 Akali for instance).

Originally Posted by sonofzeal

Tibbers has a cast-range of 600 and a splash of 200, where are you getting the 880 from? And unless you've got the reflexes of a coked-up chipmunk and the distance sense of an OCD machinist, you risk blowing both your ult and your passive. Her actual engagement range is thus something solidly less than 800, depending on how close you're willing to cut it and what your ping is. Mine is fairly high, so I might be overly pessimistic, but I'm still not going to believe there's much of anyone who can nail an 800 range Tibbers-stun reliably against an uncooperative target.

Tibber's Aura is 200 radius.

Summon damage radius is 280.

The wiki is confusing one which is which, but once you read it a couple of times, its quite distinct.

And I'll grant that 880 is *HARD* to land while smartcasting, but its Annie's ult, you can just hard-cast it if you want to land it on someone that far away.

[MCerberus]

I refunded "welp, the loading screen music did not make the champion fun for me" Diana... now I'm not sure if I should insta-buy the next champion or just get Zyra.

edit- or the rune pages, but those are a scam and you only need 2 ever right?

[Silverraptor]

Originally Posted by Eldariel

Are you sure you need RoA? I find him kitey enough that he doesn't really need to stack up on defenses overtly much; same reason I wouldn't use Abyssal on him. RoA delays the AP quite a bit; Chalice or Doran's Rings seem to cover for his mana requirements in my experience.

I generally just Deathcap > Void on him most of the time, with a defensive slot if I deem it necessary (e.g. QSS vs. suppression).

Well, I haven't been able to play him much since the Unholy grail addition, but I still like this build. He doesn't have any natural sustain, which he doesn't necessarily need since he's long range, but any damage accumilated really adds up. I get the catalyst so I can trade harass with my enemy, then get the health boost to move in for the kill. Also, any extra health Xerath accumalates stacks with his passive. Often times I get into the mid game with 120 armor from his passive. And his passive is also the most underappreciated thing in his kit. How many brusier like champions are there with gap closers designed to take out the enemy carry/mage? I can't count the times where a xin or garen, or renekton, or any brusier that focuses ad jumps on me, and yet I kill them with barely enough health. Xerath is meant to be long range, but there are those situations where someone gets through the fight and closes on you.

Also, Abyssal and banshee's are situational. Abyssal is mainly for close-range ap-assassins like fizz or akali. The extra MR plus the reduction in their MR can keep you alive longer and be able to place a kill. People underestimate Xerath's power at close range for some reason. However, if they don't have any AP-gap closers but have some long-range AP harass champions, I'll sometimes get BV. Partly because the additional health stacks with his passive Like I said before, but another part is you will be a sitting duck sometimes when you W. The main thing I think about is Nid's spear, and those things hurt.

So yes, I build Xerath as a champion who not only is range, but is able to survive if the enemy somehow manages to close on me and I need to kill, or reposition away from them.

[Godskook]

Originally Posted by MCerberus

edit- or the rune pages, but those are a scam and you only need 2 ever right?

I would say the 'need' number is higher than that. Some champs(Akali) have weird rune setups(who else would run AD quints with M-Pen marks?, or AP quints with AD marks? Well, maybe Jax....), and I at least want 2 generic pages per role, so I can customize in champ select.

[Eldariel]

Originally Posted by Silverraptor

Well, I haven't been able to play him much since the Unholy grail addition, but I still like this build. He doesn't have any natural sustain, which he doesn't necessarily need since he's long range, but any damage accumilated really adds up. I get the catalyst so I can trade harass with my enemy, then get the health boost to move in for the kill. Also, any extra health Xerath accumalates stacks with his passive. Often times I get into the mid game with 120 armor from his passive. And his passive is also the most underappreciated thing in his kit. How many brusier like champions are there with gap closers designed to take out the enemy carry/mage? I can't count the times where a xin or garen, or renekton, or any brusier that focuses ad jumps on me, and yet I kill them with barely enough health. Xerath is meant to be long range, but there are those situations where someone gets through the fight and closes on you.

Also, Abyssal and banshee's are situational. Abyssal is mainly for close-range ap-assassins like fizz or akali. The extra MR plus the reduction in their MR can keep you alive longer and be able to place a kill. People underestimate Xerath's power at close range for some reason. However, if they don't have any AP-gap closers but have some long-range AP harass champions, I'll sometimes get BV. Partly because the additional health stacks with his passive Like I said before, but another part is you will be a sitting duck sometimes when you W. The main thing I think about is Nid's spear, and those things hurt.

So yes, I build Xerath as a champion who not only is range, but is able to survive if the enemy somehow manages to close on me and I need to kill, or reposition away from them.

Generally though, buying RoA/Catalyst just for lane sustain isn't enough value; the full item is 3k and Catalyst is 1325. Compare that to two Doran's Rings and buying a ****ton of potions.

You can get 13 health potions for the price of the combination or about 2000 health restored. That's equivalent to 8 procs of Catalyst, some of which are usually not fully utilized.


Generally, if you buy Catalyst/RoA, you want the mana as it is a huge part of the item's cost is the mana. I don't necessarily feel Xerath needs the mana. Do you feel you don't need the early damage or that he does enough damage with just RoA to warrant postponing Deathcap?

Currently I go Double Doran's or Chalice into Deathcap and Void if enemy has high enough MR opponents to warrant it (generally any bruisers building MR) followed by Rylai's/DFG/Superchalice/Zhonya's/etc.

[Math_Mage]

Originally Posted by Godskook

I would say the 'need' number is higher than that. Some champs(Akali) have weird rune setups(who else would run AD quints with M-Pen marks?, or AP quints with AD marks? Well, maybe Jax....), and I at least want 2 generic pages per role, so I can customize in champ select.

I think he was joking.

Anyway, my opinion is that rune pages are the only RP purchase I want to make as a matter of playing the game. Any other RP I eventually buy would be because I couldn't pass up a skin, and that's a long way from where I am now.

[Qwertystop]

I just thought of a champ idea that is, at the very least, interesting.

Main role would be AD, or possibly AS/Onhit.

Passive, I'm not sure about.

Q and W would have an unusual cooldown system. Their cooldown is stated as the time it takes to do X number of autoattacks. While either one is on cooldown, you cannot cast the other, and you cannot autoattack. Effectively, it has a cost of "your next X autoattacks".

E would have an ammo system (like Teemo's shrooms). It can only be cast when either Q or W are on cooldown. When cast, it "reloads", allowing you to autoattack and cast the other of Q or W, whichever was not on cooldown.

The ult would probably be some kind of AS boost or onhit or something.

[Math_Mage]

Originally Posted by Qwertystop

I just thought of a champ idea that is, at the very least, interesting.

Main role would be AD, or possibly AS/Onhit.

Passive, I'm not sure about.

Q and W would have an unusual cooldown system. Their cooldown is stated as the time it takes to do X number of autoattacks. While either one is on cooldown, you cannot cast the other, and you cannot autoattack. Effectively, it has a cost of "your next X autoattacks".

E would have an ammo system (like Teemo's shrooms). It can only be cast when either Q or W are on cooldown. When cast, it "reloads", allowing you to autoattack and cast the other of Q or W, whichever was not on cooldown.

The ult would probably be some kind of AS boost or onhit or something.

Workable as a jungler, anything else is suspect because it requires you to push lane if you want your cooldowns up.

[Eldariel]

Hell, it's about damn time. Looks pretty damn good too. Now to decide which skin is the best for her; stick with Dryad or go with Divine, hmm?

[Godskook]

Originally Posted by Math_Mage

Workable as a jungler, anything else is suspect because it requires you to push lane if you want your cooldowns up.

I could point out Graves and Ezreal, both of which have mechanics that would push the lane in order to get CDs back up. I could also point out Mordekaiser, who's entire schtick is pushing lanes with impunity. Champs who push lanes are viable laners, if they're otherwise given a kit that works with the playstyle that pushing supports.

It really depends on how the champ is set up, as a skill-reliant champ with long auto-requirements would be difficult to lane as an AD carry, well at least bot lane. However, if the skills are less required and more 'bonus'(like Cait's), it could be quite workable.

[Kairaven]

Originally Posted by Qwertystop

Q and W would have an unusual cooldown system. Their cooldown is stated as the time it takes to do X number of autoattacks. While either one is on cooldown, you cannot cast the other, and you cannot autoattack. Effectively, it has a cost of "your next X autoattacks".

Essentially a more restricted version of Volibear's bite?

[MCerberus]

Originally Posted by Eldariel

Hell, it's about damn time. Looks pretty damn good too. Now to decide which skin is the best for her; stick with Dryad or go with Divine, hmm?

Soraka is wearing a shirt now instead of just a tabbard. And to keep the fanservice fans happy, she still doesn't have pants!

[Qwertystop]

Originally Posted by Kairaven

Essentially a more restricted version of Volibear's bite?

No. Voli's bite can only be used after you have AAed three times, with no more than four seconds between. This would be "After you use this ability, you cannot AA for <let's say 3 just so we have a number> AA-intervals, where one AA-interval is the time between one AA and the next for your attack speed. When you are affected by a condition that prevents you from AA-ing, you cannot use this ability."

[aethernox]

Originally Posted by Eldariel

Generally, if you buy Catalyst/RoA, you want the mana as it is a huge part of the item's cost is the mana. I don't necessarily feel Xerath needs the mana. Do you feel you don't need the early damage or that he does enough damage with just RoA to warrant postponing Deathcap?

This is what I was thinking. RoA costs a ton of gold, and that's 3k gold that you aren't spending on your Deathcap, which is really when Xerath's midgame begins to shine. RoA isn't an efficient item on champions who don't need the mana or the HP, and Xerath (relative to most mages) isn't particularly lacking either.

[Kairaven]

Originally Posted by Qwertystop

No. Voli's bite can only be used after you have AAed three times, with no more than four seconds between. This would be "After you use this ability, you cannot AA for <let's say 3 just so we have a number> AA-intervals, where one AA-interval is the time between one AA and the next for your attack speed. When you are affected by a condition that prevents you from AA-ing, you cannot use this ability."

I see, since most champ start at around 0.5 attack/sec the cooldown is essentially (let's say three AA's) 5+ seconds. and At max AttSpd cap, CD would be 1.2 second.

sounds more like a kit that prevents pushing/farming/last hits rather than helping.

Also at such short CD it just seem rather pointless. If you make the required AA-interval longer it would cripple the champion's early farm game severely. Unless they use E, which unless E has a passive associated with it pretty much means you are robbing the champ of an ability.

edit: didn't mean to sound harsh, just that the mechanic forces certain traits that must be implemented for it to work. For instance Q and W have to be really good in damage or utility to sacrefice AA for it, since AA accounts for a lot more then people realize in fights. E would probably have to have an active short timed or permanent passive AD AA steroid to make up for a lost skill slot.

[Qwertystop]

Originally Posted by Kairaven

I see, since most champ start at around 0.5 attack/sec the cooldown is essentially (let's say three AA's) 5+ seconds. and At max AttSpd cap, CD would be 1.2 second.

sounds more like a kit that prevents pushing/farming/last hits rather than helping.

Also at such short CD it just seem rather pointless. If you make the required AA-interval longer it would cripple the champion's early farm game severely. Unless they use E, which unless E has a passive associated with it pretty much means you are robbing the champ of an ability.

edit: didn't mean to sound harsh, just that the mechanic forces certain traits that must be implemented for it to work. For instance Q and W have to be really good in damage or utility to sacrefice AA for it, since AA accounts for a lot more then people realize in fights. E would probably have to have an active short timed or permanent passive AD AA steroid to make up for a lost skill slot.

Well, the cooldown could scale. Maybe it's only one AA at low levels, and it gains one every other rank. E could certainly have a boost to stats, but frankly, Zilean gets by fine with one ability devoted to CDR. Maybe Q is a really big on-next-attack modifier fluffed as shooting several rounds all at once. Maybe W is really long range (as in Noct Ult sort of range) and can be a skillshot if you can't see the area to target someone. What I thought of is more a mechanic than a champ design, but I think it could work if the exact abilities are done right. I don't pretend to know how to balance this stuff, which is why I didn't put in any numbers.

[Godskook]

Originally Posted by Qwertystop

Well, the cooldown could scale. Maybe it's only one AA at low levels, and it gains one every other rank. E could certainly have a boost to stats, but frankly, Zilean gets by fine with one ability devoted to CDR. Maybe Q is a really big on-next-attack modifier fluffed as shooting several rounds all at once. Maybe W is really long range (as in Noct Ult sort of range) and can be a skillshot if you can't see the area to target someone. What I thought of is more a mechanic than a champ design, but I think it could work if the exact abilities are done right. I don't pretend to know how to balance this stuff, which is why I didn't put in any numbers.

I misunderstood you a little earlier.

I think self-CC, by its nature, is a less-than-fun mechanic. It can be made to work, but the pay-offs generally need to be quite large.

What I understood you to mean was a CD that had no time requirement, just measured in autos required before coming off cooldown. Such a skill could be more easily balanced, and champions who have CD-reduction on hit(spell or auto) are plentiful enough that this is more of a logical extension of those concepts.

Also, as written, the E is basically a non-ult version of Jayce and Nidale ults, but with smaller access to what skills it unlocks.

[Eldariel]

Ok, what's going on with the balancing department in LoL lately? Looking at recent releases, we have:

Spoiler

Syndra: Ridiculously low damage on release, gonna be patched soon (ulti with 6 Orbs is still only .9 AP ratio, E is .4, W is .7, Q with Transcendent is only .575). Q does less damage than Annie Q even with Transcendent, let alone before it. Short range too. High skill cap and mediocre even if mastered.

Rengar: Underpowered AD, patched as AP. Last patch had a lot of buffs and AP nerf for him.

Diana: Ridiculously strong on release, still strong after heavy nerfs.

Jayce: Only recent release to only receive a minor nerf but he has the Irelia-syndrome of having a ridiculous kit; he'll see more nerfs later.

Zyra: Ridiculously strong on release, still strong after heavy nerfs.

Draven: Only balanced recent release, mostly thanks to the axes being hard to pick back up later (meta considerations of wanting jaunts on carries also a part of his unpopularity).

Darius: Ridiculously strong on release, still strong after heavy nerfs.

Out of the recent 7 champions, 4 have been heavily nerfed, 1 has been slightly nerfed (with more nerfs likely in the future), 1 will be heavily buffed and only 1 (6th) is considered broadly balanced.

This with the long test periods before release. This...is significantly worse initial balance than the previous releases for a long time (Hecarim fine, Varus fine, Lulu nerfed as AP, Fiora fine, Nautilus slightly nerfed, Ziggs fine, Sejuani fine). I wonder what's going on in there... Swamped for work and too fast release schedule?

I'd guess so; balancing a 100+ champ game is hard. Still, it isn't overtly complex to Syndra's overall damage output, compare it to other champs in the same role, account for her strategic issues (ult requires Orbs out to do a lot of damage, she has short range and she's hard to use) and adjust the numbers appropriately. This would at least achieve a broad balance; right now she's just off the charts weak.

[Godskook]

Originally Posted by Eldariel

I'd guess so; balancing a 100+ champ game is hard. Still, it isn't overtly complex to Syndra's overall damage output, compare it to other champs in the same role, account for her strategic issues (ult requires Orbs out to do a lot of damage, she has short range and she's hard to use) and adjust the numbers appropriately. This would at least achieve a broad balance; right now she's just off the charts weak.

Syndra's 'surprise' burst(read: only sphere is from her current Q):

1463 + 2.275*AP

Syndra's prepared burst:

2003 + 2.725*AP

Annie's burst:

975 + 2.15*AP + Auras + Tibber's auto

Lux's burst:

1380 + 2.05*AP (2 passive procs)

Leblanc's burst:

1317 + 3.76

Ahri's burst:

1235 + 2.86*AP (land all 3 ult charges, 1 spell rotation)

All told, Syndra's damage numbers are fine. She's got enough burst to be a viable mage. Her problem isn't that easy to solve. She needs QoL buffs(her cast animations and times are horrible), and possibly some re-curving on her damage(her early game is crap), but her overall damage values are fine where they are. Her mana and CDs probably need some improvement, but that's all really hard to tell.

[Silverraptor]

Originally Posted by Eldariel

Generally though, buying RoA/Catalyst just for lane sustain isn't enough value; the full item is 3k and Catalyst is 1325. Compare that to two Doran's Rings and buying a ****ton of potions.

You can get 13 health potions for the price of the combination or about 2000 health restored. That's equivalent to 8 procs of Catalyst, some of which are usually not fully utilized.


Generally, if you buy Catalyst/RoA, you want the mana as it is a huge part of the item's cost is the mana. I don't necessarily feel Xerath needs the mana. Do you feel you don't need the early damage or that he does enough damage with just RoA to warrant postponing Deathcap?

Currently I go Double Doran's or Chalice into Deathcap and Void if enemy has high enough MR opponents to warrant it (generally any bruisers building MR) followed by Rylai's/DFG/Superchalice/Zhonya's/etc.

Xerath's early damage is still quite good enough to delay the deathcap. His Q is on a pretty quick cooldown and good base damage that warrants a bit of extra mana from the rod cost. Trust me when I say, Rod is a good item on him, or atleast the way I play him. I'm not trying to say this is *THE* only way to play him, but the way that I've adapted my play with him.

[TheShrike]

Syndra doesn't have the damage to reliably kill a bruiser (that's basically in the Cass/Ryze/sometimes Karthus category) and she doesn't have the range/CC/mobility to reliably one-shot the enemy carry. She also doesn't have amazing sieging powers, and her combo (including the stun/knockback) is on an infuriatingly long cooldown. Basically, what is it that she is supposed to do?

[Terribad]

Originally Posted by aethernox

This is what I was thinking. RoA costs a ton of gold, and that's 3k gold that you aren't spending on your Deathcap, which is really when Xerath's midgame begins to shine. RoA isn't an efficient item on champions who don't need the mana or the HP, and Xerath (relative to most mages) isn't particularly lacking either.

I get the "Who to build RoA on" problem alot as well. RoA is good but definitely delays Deathcap which is neccessary on most mages. What are the champions that find RoA situational? I'll kick off

Cassiopeia - This is a real conundrum. I build it if I'm not doing well otherwise its double dorans to Deathcap as Cass can make morale crumble by mid game.

Lux - Again, I don't know. She needs the front loaded damage more but at the same time, too many gap closing jungle types make her range irrelevant in the current meya

Malzahar - I find I usually have to build it on Malz as his spell range is pretty short.

Morgana - Nope. I double dorans to Hourglass then Cap.

Orianna - Is it needed on her? I don't use Ori much but once again short range spells means she needs to build it.

Diana - I don't play her mid. When I jungle I prefer double dorans into Rylais. But almost all the mid Dianas do build RoA, presumably because of her small mana pool

[Eldariel]

Originally Posted by Terribad

I get the "Who to build RoA on" problem alot as well. RoA is good but definitely delays Deathcap which is neccessary on most mages. What are the champions that find RoA situational? I'll kick off

Cassiopeia - This is a real conundrum. I build it if I'm not doing well otherwise its double dorans to Deathcap as Cass can make morale crumble by mid game.

Lux - Again, I don't know. She needs the front loaded damage more but at the same time, too many gap closing jungle types make her range irrelevant in the current meya

Malzahar - I find I usually have to build it on Malz as his spell range is pretty short.

Morgana - Nope. I double dorans to Hourglass then Cap.

Orianna - Is it needed on her? I don't use Ori much but once again short range spells means she needs to build it.

Diana - I don't play her mid. When I jungle I prefer double dorans into Rylais. But almost all the mid Dianas do build RoA, presumably because of her small mana pool

I don't use RoA on any of those regularly (situationally tho on Orianna & Malz in high burst scenarios where I just need flat defenses and expect to get targeted a lot). Only RoA-champs I use are Ryze, Kassadin, Anivia & Karthus since they really need/benefit of the mana.

[Terribad]

Originally Posted by Eldariel

I don't use RoA on any of those regularly (situationally tho on Orianna & Malz in high burst scenarios where I just need flat defenses and expect to get targeted a lot). Only RoA-champs I use are Ryze, Kassadin, Anivia & Karthus since they really need/benefit of the mana.

I suppose Swain is included as well?

[Eldariel]

Originally Posted by Terribad

I suppose Swain is included as well?

Yeah, forgot about him (knew I was forgetting somebody). Swain too.