D&D 3e/3.5e/d20The forum for conversations specifically related to the rules and procedures of Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition, 3.5 Edition, or any fantasy game using the d20 system or a variant thereof (commercially published or not).
So I was reading the warblade handbook and it's been making me wonder, why go into barbarian at all?
To get Pounce/Improved Trip. Especially the former is very hard to get otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirAxealot
Do Tome of battle classes make the majority of other melee classes obsolete?
Somewhat. Those classes narrow the gap between spellcasters and meleers a bit, and builds with ToB classes are harder to screw up than those with core classes. There are still interesting and effective builds with core classes. The Horizon Tripper springs to mind.
I am not familiar with the specifics of Zentharim fighter, does it has something like mass Staredown?
Yeah, by level 9 you can be swift-action intimidating all enemies within thirty feet. And you either get an extra step on the fear scale (shakened > frightened > panicked, I believe), or they can't move for one round after the intimidation, I forget which.
There really isn't a wrong way to a barbarian. The class practically writes itself. just take power attack and a bi ol' two handed-weapon. You might want to look int Frenzied Berserker though.
So I was reading the warblade handbook and it's been making me wonder, why go into barbarian at all?
For rage variants and bonus feats, mostly. The d12 HD don't hurt on a crusader or swordsage either.
Quote:
Do Tome of battle classes make the majority of other melee classes obsolete?
NO. The martial adepts add a group of melee classes that have a much wider mechanical variety, but they do not make the others obsolete. Check out this thread, for a direct comparison that's frequently made.
Especially note the mathematical analyses that eggs and I did.
__________________
I am not seaweed. That's a B.
Praise I've received
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell
Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTwerewolf
[...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
There really isn't a wrong way to a barbarian. The class practically writes itself. just take power attack and a bi ol' two handed-weapon. You might want to look int Frenzied Berserker though.
Frenzied Berserker is a TPK waiting to happen unless you go through a lot of hoops. If you want to take Frenzied Berserker, the class definitely does not write itself.
Yeah, by level 9 you can be swift-action intimidating all enemies within thirty feet. And you either get an extra step on the fear scale (shakened > frightened > panicked, I believe), or they can't move for one round after the intimidation, I forget which.
I think it is probably the escalated fear, Cowering is due Imperious Command (which is to Intimidators what Natural Spell is for vanilla druids). Still a shame that CWar lost his main strength...though maybe it is an option on a game where Campaign Setting stuff is banned (Yes, I know Zhentarim can easilly be refluffed; but not all DM permit it)
__________________
Avatar by Ceika
Past Avatars/Iron Chef Trophy:
So I've been winnowing down the skill list to figure out how many points I'll be needing and where, and now I'm wondering if this is a reasonable spread. If it is, I won't need to be that much of a skill monkey after all.
1 Autohypnosis (Wis) - I think I may need more ranks here
5 Balance (Dex) - are more than 5 ranks needed? Every time I see references to balance they say 5 ranks
? Concentration (Con) - Not sure how this ties into warblade stuff just yet
5 Hide (Dex)
11 Intimidate (Cha)
11 Jump (Str)
1 Knowledge - Dungeoneering - For this and nature, and any other potential knowledge skills, a) are tehy worth bothering with b) do I need more than 1 rank in each?
1 Knowledge - Nature
3 Listen (Wis)
? Martial Lore - again, not sure how crucial this is for warblades.
5 Move Silently (Dex)
2 Survival (Wis) - I know this is potentially related to trapkiller
11 Tumble (Dex)
5 Balance (Dex) - are more than 5 ranks needed? Every time I see references to balance they say 5 ranks
5 Ranks are needed to not be flat-footed while balancing. Unless you want to play an acrobat, you probably won't need more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirAxealot
? Concentration (Con) - Not sure how this ties into warblade stuff just yet
There are the maneuvers moment of perfect mind, action before thought and mind over body that let you replace a WIL, REF or FORT save with a concentration check. There are also maneuvers that replace your damage with on two or four times your concentration check.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirAxealot
? Martial Lore - again, not sure how crucial this is for warblades.
I would not bother with it unless you have skill points to spare. It lets you identify maneuvers. While nice to know that you have just been hit in the face with a mountain hammer this is hardly crucial information. Identifying martial scripts in foreign languages might be interesting but hardly necessary either. As long as you know the alphabet the script is written in you can activate it, even if you do not know what maneuver it grants because you can't read the language. Martial scripts can also be identified by other means.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirAxealot
5 Move Silently (Dex)
I would not bother with Hide and Move Silently skill unless you plan to max them. They are always used in opposed rolls. So you will need a very high bonus to have a high chance of success.
Gotcha. I'll pull points out of Hide and Move silently and put them into maxing concentration then? Slight jump in number of ranks, up to 64.
Also a couple more questions on alternate class features
Uncanny dodge seems to be commonly swapped for Improved Trip by way of wolf totem. However, Fangshields Barbarian substitution levels let you get Awesome Charge, which lets you make an attack at the end of your charge as if you had the Awesome Blow feat from MM p 303. Which one is preferable? They both seem to knock people over, and Awesome blow can move them around or do dungeoncrasher-lite by knocking people into things.
When replacing Trapsense, the main choices seem to be Fast Charge or Trap Killer. Fast charge also comes from fangshield barbarian, and it says you get a 10 ft enhancement to speed when charging. This applies to any type of movement the barbarian uses. Gain an additional 10 ft bonus every 3 levels, for a total of 60 at level 18. Can I add this bonus to jump distance?
Also, I saw it said somewhere that a monk could get three feats in a two level dip, but I'm not seeing how that's possible. Can someone explain if it is?
Monk get Improved Unarmed strike (1) at level one, they also get either stunning fist or Improved Grapple (2) and at level 2 they get to chose Improved Disarm or Improved trip (3).
So they get 3 feats in two levels, quite good since monk ignore pre-requisites and the variant styles have some interesting feats to pick like Power Attack and Improved Sunder (or Bullrush, can't recall which one). Even better if you use the martial monk variant (Dragon Magazine) which allows you to select feats from the Fighter bonus feat list (some people argue that you don't ignore pre-requisites for these feats, some argue that you do. So as always check with your DM).
__________________
Avatar by Ceika
Past Avatars/Iron Chef Trophy:
About Dungeoncrasher:
one of the reasons it is popular is that feats for fighters aren't really that great, sadly.
In my opinion, dungeoncrasher really shines if you can get "free" bull rushes, such as from the knock-back feat.
With knock-back, you get a free bull-rush every time you hit an enemy using power attack (-1/+2 will do fine). This means that your goliath/half-ogre/half-giant barbarian will be tossing people left and right once in melee, doing additional damage due to dungeoncrasher, and possibly also tripping them if you also picked up shock trooper along the way.
Forcing the enemy to move on your action is a huge boon as it may trigger AoO's galore (have a chain-wielder on your side and close by), and so gives melee a way to break the precious action economy. Note that movement out of your threatened squares from your bull rushing will not trigger an AoO.
All simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor, all shields except tower. Probably going to use some combination of guisarme, gauntlets, armor spikes, and greatsword.
Problems:
Crap will save, poor reflex save, BAB suffers a little, a tiny bit short on skill points if I have to keep Intimidate, Jump, Tumble, and Concentration at the max possible throughout progression. Can't wear heavy armor.
Low Int reduces benefit from all the Warblade "Battle" class features, warblade bonus feats limited to small pool. Warblade levels 10, 14, 16, 18, and 20 contribute nothing other than BAB/save progression.
have yet to pick a race. Don't get Streetfighter or Indomitable Will. Frenzy is limited to a few uses per day and, I think, doesn't scale. Doubt feats are well chosen other than the ones instructed on. Fatigue after Whirling Frenzy, concerned about that. feat progression is all messed up because of some class features being delayed (see extra frenzy at level 15)
I'm not sure how to figure out what my reflex scores and such will be, but I'm about to dive back into the books.
EDIT: For battle jump, do you actually have to jump off something, or can you just jump up and come back down onto them?
Last edited by SirAxealot : 09-26-2012 at 05:18 PM.
Think of the totems this way: You have two totems... one SPIRIT totem, one more MUNDANE totem. So one is more about you follow the ghost and the concept of the lion as it exists in the spirit realm, and at the same time the physical presence and respect and physical attributes and fighting techniques of the wolf.
Or you ignore barbarian fluff completely and are just a guy who can pounce and trip? And with battle jump, yes you can come up and down.
Last edited by Gavinfoxx : 09-26-2012 at 05:41 PM.
Note that Monk and Barbarian have a little trouble mixing; you have to either relax alignment restrictions (a reasonable enough houserule, but can't be assumed) or switch alignments somewhere in there (which is awkward).
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirAxealot
EDIT: For battle jump, do you actually have to jump off something, or can you just jump up and come back down onto them?
There's debate on that. By a tight reading of RAW, you need to be approximately above your enemy (i.e. vertically higher while adjacent) and fall roughly straight down. By RAI, the frequent references to ledges tend to support that. RACSD is a bit more dubious; you could argue that it refers specifically to gathering your muscles for a downward charge, or that it's mostly about downward momentum (however gathered), or whatever.
In other words, ask your DM.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Bear
That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hamishspence
"Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid"
I often hop into threads for just one thing
Note that Monk and Barbarian have a little trouble mixing; you have to either relax alignment restrictions (a reasonable enough houserule, but can't be assumed) or switch alignments somewhere in there (which is awkward).
There's debate on that. By a tight reading of RAW, you need to be approximately above your enemy (i.e. vertically higher while adjacent) and fall roughly straight down. By RAI, the frequent references to ledges tend to support that. RACSD is a bit more dubious; you could argue that it refers specifically to gathering your muscles for a downward charge, or that it's mostly about downward momentum (however gathered), or whatever.
In other words, ask your DM.
Oh, are there rules for alignment switches or something?
What's RACSD?
Just a little review about the options in the beginning here...
Fighter was also up for potential inclusion, would give heavy armor proficiency, and I found a class called exoticist which is free as far as I can tell, gets you 4 exotic weapons. Also has full BAB progression, but weaker saves.
Ranger, with Arcane Hunter at level 1 and Combat Style: Strongarm at level 2; gives the ability to use wands I think someone said. Full BAB, no will but good fort and reflex.
There may well be some other brilliant class to add to dippin' dots here, feel free to make suggestions.
Need to pick a fighting style for the monk levels.
You don't want to dip both, Rogue and Monk. It's one or the other. Losing two points of Base Attack Bonus just isn't really feasible early on on a warrior-type since it restricts your ability to Power Attack and plain makes you miss a lot. Take Ranger instead of Rogue if you want Trapfinding and the extra skills.
Oh, are there rules for alignment switches or something?
What's RACSD?
Not really, for the most part; essentially, alignment reflects your character's personality and beliefs, not the other way around. However, DMs (for various reasons) tend to frown on characters vacillating between ethical beliefs, especially if the only reason you're doing it is to qualify for dips. Therefore, you should at minimum have a reasonable explanation for why your character's tendencies changed so noticeably.
RACSD stands for Rules As Common Sense Dictates; the link in my sig has a collection of specific cases where RACSD differs from Rules As Written (as well as an explanation of why it's a more useful metric than RAW or Rules As Intended/RAI).
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Bear
That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hamishspence
"Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid"
I often hop into threads for just one thing
First, you can't take multiple instances of a skill trick. You either know the trick or you don't. Uncanny trickster can let you use some of them twice in an encounter but that's as good as it gets without magical trickster.
Second, alignment is a complex animal in D&D. We've had thread after thread about it here. The basics of the RAW are thus:
Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos are cosmic forces to which certain moral and ethical patterns have been attached. A characters alignment is determined by his behavioral patterns. If your character regularly does evil things, he's evil. He does not do evil things because he's evil, he's evil because he does evil things. The same goes for the other three. If a characters behavioral patterns change, his aligment changes to match.
It's generally frowned upon to have an alignment shift planned as part of a character build. It reeks of munchkinry whether that's your intent or not. RAW, a casting of atonement can cause an instant shift in alignment, but if your behavior doesn't change to match the new alignment then your alignment will change back after a while, as determined by the DM. Generally it's better to avoid this potential problem altogether by simply picking an alignment and sticking to it throughout the character's career. For you this means forget about monk. The bonus feats are nice, but they're not worth the potential headache a shifting alignment can cause.
__________________
I am not seaweed. That's a B.
Praise I've received
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell
Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTwerewolf
[...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
First, you can't take multiple instances of a skill trick. You either know the trick or you don't. Uncanny trickster can let you use some of them twice in an encounter but that's as good as it gets without magical trickster.
That's 2 points per skill trick, not two of each. And I decided to drop monk because it was delaying the acquisition of all the jumpiy feats til 9, and because i hadn't realized how hard to use decisive strike would be. Invisible fist would still be damn nice, but it's not worth a 2 level dip.
EDIT: Interesting that it's considered cheesy to change alignment once. If you were flip-flopping around like Catwoman then I could see it but I think one change of alignment is ok.
Last edited by SirAxealot : 09-29-2012 at 10:56 AM.
That's 2 points per skill trick, not two of each. And I decided to drop monk because it was delaying the acquisition of all the jumpiy feats til 9, and because i hadn't realized how hard to use decisive strike would be. Invisible fist would still be damn nice, but it's not worth a 2 level dip.
EDIT: Interesting that it's considered cheesy to change alignment once. If you were flip-flopping around like Catwoman then I could see it but I think one change of alignment is ok.
Ah, my mistake then.
It's not generally considered cheesy to change alignment as long as it's a natural change based mostly in having mislabled your original alignment or having the character undergo significant personal development. It becomes cheesy when the only reason for the alignment shift is to qualify for something mechanical like taking a level in a class with an alignment restriction.
__________________
I am not seaweed. That's a B.
Praise I've received
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell
Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTwerewolf
[...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
EDIT: Interesting that it's considered cheesy to change alignment once. If you were flip-flopping around like Catwoman then I could see it but I think one change of alignment is ok.
Changing one's alignment is not cheesy per se, but changing it at a previously designated point to achieve an otherwise impossible build might be considered thus.
After level 6, should I go straight warblade?
I miss out on delicious streetfighter features and whirling frenzy boosts, but I gain a lot more versatility. I saw on the WotC forums that a guy named Tleilaxu_ghola had some clever way to "leapfrog" martial adept levels with other classes, but I can't find out much about it since the link to it is dead. Anyone know anything about that?
As is, I'm a bit feat starved for everything I want to do and the lack of barbarian progression means I can only frenzy once a day. Still wondering about how fatigue works - haven't seen much discussion of it as an issue in other reading I've been doing
I think I've got a reasonably good blend going on here. I can jump around for mobility, I have reasonably powerful charges, and I can do a bit of controlling through tripping and knocking people around a bit. Is there any other job a big meaty type should be doing?
Questions on a fair number of feats, spoilered for length.
Spoiler
Charge enhancers: I'm thinking that my charges will be pretty powerful as is, but it may be worth taking one of these for that last bit of oomph
>Reckless Offensive - Won't I already be trading AC for hit bonus with power attack much of the time?
>Headlong rush - high risk, high reward. Double damage on a charge in exchange for potentially forcing AoOs against you. orc or half-orc only.
>Power Lunge - Seems like a weaker version of headlong rush
Movement enhancers:
>Battle Jump - not sure how good this might be, especially given the wording. Can you simply jump up and come down onto your enemies, or do you actually have to be on a ledge?
>Leap of the heavens - seems like it would be very good for a dragoon-type?
>Evasive Reflexes - Can I chain together the 5 foot steps, or is it capped at a 1 square move?
Control enhancers:
>Stand Still - I believe I can use one AoO to force a target to stay immobile, hit oter targets ith AoOs, and then tear them apart the next turn, correct?
>Combat Brute - there any way to get around the improved sunder requirement?
General utility:
>Mad Foam Rager - This seems like it could combine well with iron heart surge?
>Vital Recovery - my suspicion is tat this won't heal enough to be worth it
Last edited by SirAxealot : 10-06-2012 at 06:01 PM.
If you can fit in Extra Rage, you can Frenzy more than once a day... Can you take flaws or traits?
And Reckless Offense would add on to the penalty you take to AC from Shock Trooper. Your AC would be EVEN MORE in the tank (go for miss chances. Get miss chances. Miss chances are good!)
Last edited by Gavinfoxx : 10-06-2012 at 09:40 PM.
Not totally certain about what I'm doing with levels 6+. I could pick up extra whirling frenzy from fear instead of steadfast determination, or like I said simply.take another level of barbarian. I've already got a flaw at 1st level and so far as I know no traits.
I think you're advising against reckless offense?
Right now it seems like both taking and giving attacks of opportunity will be a big part of my gameplay. what can I do to make that work better for me? Getting into karmic strike might be a little tough, I'm low on feats as is. Might be able to get it by 15 if I have warblade bonus feats, for instance.
No, reckless offensive is fine. You won't be relying on armor class ANYWAY, since it is always going to be crap. You'll be relying on miss chances to not be hit, right? So low AC doesn't matter at all -- just invest in getting several miss chances. Why not take a 2nd flaw? If your GM lets you take 5 flaws, take 5 flaws. Taking a flaw is ALWAYS better than not taking it, those things can really be mitigated or might not affect you at all. Look at the Chet Kindredcircle page (google it) for lists of flaws and traits.
Is there any point in going dwarf and getting into deepwarden, for the con to AC (or fist of the forest, same reason)? Or will that not be enough to offset the massive AC hits from power attacking? My AC won't be hit as hard to begin with, thanks to whirling frenzy...
Also, I've been assuming I'll hit with power attack most of the time. Is there anything I need to do to increase the chances of that?
Smoking won't help when charging, which is when your AC will be lowest:
-smoking needs a standard action to activate (no mention of any other action).
-smoking only provides concealment in the square you activated it.
RSS Feeds: 
Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
