Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

[Anarion]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Aye, gnosis is pretty inexorable, unless Thanqol goes in for the optional arcanum allowance of arcane experience. I'm not sure is go in for gnosis with any character unless it's specifically part of their concept.

Well, in my case, I had to correct the mistake in character creation to make Tessen legal (we'll just say she was an extra special forces prodigy).

Also, pushing up to gnosis 3 quickly means you can do rituals much faster than you could otherwise. That means you can start all kinds of magical experiments and still have time to do other things.

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by Deadly

Alright, Amun has 13 XP and 9 Arcane, then. I'm going to raise Time to 2, costing 12 XP, if that's alright. So 1 XP and 9 Arcane left. I think our messing with the world's time is something that might have inspired Amun a little in that direction.

Sorry for my slowness, I'll go write an IC post now.

Cool cool.

Originally Posted by Lix Lorn

...the Doctor is a valid thing to include in Mage?

A lot of Doctor Who plots can be outright stolen and repackaged for Mage.

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Aye, gnosis is pretty inexorable, unless Thanqol goes in for the optional arcanum allowance of arcane experience.

I don't.

Originally Posted by Anarion

Also, pushing up to gnosis 3 quickly means you can do rituals much faster than you could otherwise. That means you can start all kinds of magical experiments and still have time to do other things.

Correct; Gnosis 3 is a massive game changer. It also opens the door to getting a Legacy.

[the_druid_droid]

Originally Posted by Anarion

Also, pushing up to gnosis 3 quickly means you can do rituals much faster than you could otherwise. That means you can start all kinds of magical experiments and still have time to do other things.

Yeah, Gnosis 3 is on the list, but I probably won't actually buy it until after I can swing Death 4, or unless some big in-game thing convinces me. And before Death 4, I'm planning on at least a couple rotes plus Prime 1. Possibly Life 2 as well, but I'm on the fence there...

[Anarion]

Originally Posted by the_druid_droid

Yeah, Gnosis 3 is on the list, but I probably won't actually buy it until after I can swing Death 4, or unless some big in-game thing convinces me. And before Death 4, I'm planning on at least a couple rotes plus Prime 1. Possibly Life 2 as well, but I'm on the fence there...

I still want silver ladder status, some combination of contacts/allies/resources representing a part time job with some connections, two dots of prime, whatever the heck I'm doing with spirit that will probably include a couple rotes, and gnosis 3 into forces 5. But you know that some of that is going to slide somewhere.

[the_druid_droid]

Hmm, I might buy Firebee as a contact to further cement the IC arrangement. Status will have to wait for the Guardians until Turing is past the Veils though; even so, I like this way better - at character generation I wasn't sure he would actually pass the Crimson. Still not entirely sure he will, but it seems more likely in play.

[SiuiS]

Originally Posted by Thanqol

A lot of Doctor Who plots can be outright stolen and repackaged for Mage.

Changeling, too!

I don't.

Academically, why such a hard line? You would not be willing to allow arcane experience towards, say, forces five if Forces was directly necessary for both the events that grant arcane XP, and allowed forced 5?

Having a clearer understanding of arcane XP I am inclined to agree with your stance however. "this guy is a vampire" is not sufficient for XP, why he's a vampire in his position is.

Correct; Gnosis 3 is a massive game changer. It also opens the door to getting a Legacy.

It also provides mana/turn. For survival however, the early game seems to work better with grabbing sufficient arcana to survive arcane xp acquisition.

It's a moot point, as I couldn't resist the lure of getting a sufficiently fast ritual speed. Stupid-complex cabal scale ritual to create effects which survive independent of said cabal is one I those tantalizing things I would do for a while rather than survive and thrive as a mage, for a few years at least. Tinkering is inherent to my condition.

Originally Posted by the_druid_droid

Yeah, Gnosis 3 is on the list, but I probably won't actually buy it until after I can swing Death 4, or unless some big in-game thing convinces me. And before Death 4, I'm planning on at least a couple rotes plus Prime 1. Possibly Life 2 as well, but I'm on the fence there...

Arcana are strange. The difference from 0 to 1 is so small, but from 1 to 2 is huge. Coupled with some arcana that just aren't "useful" until theyre higher (prime) or are downright mentally detrimental (mid, spirit I'm looking at you guys)...

-

Okay, so change of topic, I think I'm in Anarion's boat and have an idea for a potential game. Or a story within a game, but it's growing like a seed crystal... I'm seeing a certain lackin in my capability to construct an internally consistent sandbox. I may be buggin you guys over other channels for thoughts.

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Academically, why such a hard line? You would not be willing to allow arcane experience towards, say, forces five if Forces was directly necessary for both the events that grant arcane XP, and allowed forced 5?

Because I like a forced progression towards enlightenment, even if it's not in the Mage's best interests. Sooner or later you naturally outgrow certain parts of the world and can't stop it.

Okay, so change of topic, I think I'm in Anarion's boat and have an idea for a potential game. Or a story within a game, but it's growing like a seed crystal... I'm seeing a certain lackin in my capability to construct an internally consistent sandbox. I may be buggin you guys over other channels for thoughts.

I've actually got a backup character designed and in place for the game you one day run.

[the_druid_droid]

Originally Posted by Thanqol

Because I like a forced progression towards enlightenment, even if it's not in the Mage's best interests. Sooner or later you naturally outgrow certain parts of the world and can't stop it.

That... sounds like Mage, all right.

[Anarion]

I can only imagine the pure amount of magical "stuff" necessary to get the 40 xp to go from gnosis 4 to 5. It's probably a lot of stuff.

[Tiki Snakes]

Man I should really figure out how much Xp I have and what I actually want to do with it.
I'll totally think about it tomorrow. Tomorrow Night, perhaps.

[SiuiS]

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

Man I should really figure out how much Xp I have and what I actually want to do with it.
I'll totally think about it tomorrow. Tomorrow Night, perhaps.

Raise your wisdom!

[Tiki Snakes]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Raise your wisdom!

Why would I want to do that?
(Genuine Question)

[Anarion]

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

Why would I want to do that?
(Genuine Question)

To be a virtuous fellow and have slightly higher resistance to doing atrocious things in the future. Also, if you get to wisdom 9+ you get a +1 bonus on social dice rolls when dealing with spirits and a +1 bonus when countering the powers of abyssal beings. Also, higher wisdom reduces paradox duration and according to the book, high wisdom means that other mages are more likely to accept you as a student if/when you want to learn new magic.

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Raise your wisdom!

GO AHEAD, THROW YOUR XP AWAY!

*Has done this*

[SiuiS]

That's all mechanically great an all, but my answer is because Jack of Hearts seems interested in such.

If you knew that there would be situations such as going to see the Jerusalem man, but you might not be savvy enough to see them in time, would you not want to condition yourself to make responses you'll be proud of?

Or take the Thyrsus route and consider it a personal challenge. Emotional turmoil is as much a physical sensation as mental. This also applies to Arrows.

[Tiki Snakes]

A bonus on countering the powers of Abyssal beings would make sense, if that was the focus of the character. The rest I could very much take or leave for the most part.

Especially the more virtuous bit. I'm not sure that's what it really means so much as you feel worse about a larger range of stuff. That's not really the same as being virtuous to my mind.

I imagine potential masters would look on higher wisdom types more favourably as students on average, given that above 7ish, you start feeling seriously bad for some very simple things and if your student cannot even bring themselves to lie to another human being the chances of them doing horrendous things with your teachings are a lot less.

But, yeah. Pass on that for Jack. Doesn't feel appropriate characterwise and doesn't do much for me character-build-wise.

Edit for ninjas;

I don't know. I don't think Jack's really a candidate for actual high wisdom scores yet. I'm sure there's a subtle distinction between someone who acts in line with say, wisdom 8 or 9 and someone who actually has wisdom 8 or 9, but like Jack himself, there is an element of me just playing this by gut feeling.

It's true however, that he may indeed be working with the teachings of Vash The Stampede ("The world is made of peace and love") and Edward Elric. I find the way my characters represent snapshots of where my mind was when they were concieved kind of weird sometimes, but those are ingredients here.

[Anarion]

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

Especially the more virtuous bit. I'm not sure that's what it really means so much as you feel worse about a larger range of stuff. That's not really the same as being virtuous to my mind.

You seem to be implying that being virtuous and feeling guilty aren't the same and that the Church has been lying to us all for the last couple thousand years of human history, give or take. That's impossible! By which I mean, entirely possible and 100% true

[Tiki Snakes]

I'm certainly implying no such thing.
Because it borders on board-innapropriate topics and I'm a cautious fellow.

[Thanqol]

In seriousness, there are no mechanical advantages for higher wisdom really worth justifying the cost. It has to purely come down to ST fiat to have NPCs respect that you're choosing the higher road.

I'll do that, but you can't assume that in general.

*

Incidentally, a new efficiency houserule I'm stealing:

A good rule of thumb would be to make the potency of non-scaling spells equal to the number of dots in the primary arcanum of the spell used to cast it. This can end up with some spells being slightly harder to dispel than normal, but it's not a big deal.

You have Prime 4? Your Prime mage armour and mage sight have a potency of 4. You're out of combat? You can activate them without rolling.

[Anarion]

Originally Posted by Thanqol

In seriousness, there are no mechanical advantages for higher wisdom really worth justifying the cost. It has to purely come down to ST fiat to have NPCs respect that you're choosing the higher road.

I'll do that, but you can't assume that in general.

*

Incidentally, a new efficiency houserule I'm stealing:

Wouldn't the mechanical advantage be that you're intentionally making things harder for yourself, which tends to translate to extra experience and willpower restoration?

Oh and I am alarmed by that rule. It kinda makes counterspelling absolutely useless unless you take the rote.

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by Anarion

Wouldn't the mechanical advantage be that you're intentionally making things harder for yourself, which tends to translate to extra experience and willpower restoration?

Oh and I am alarmed by that rule. It kinda makes counterspelling absolutely useless unless you take the rote.

The counterargument is "I can stand still casting and re-casting this spell until I get a good roll whenever I've got 45 seconds to spare", and this is formalising that reality, but you've got a good point.

The alternative is "You roll when it becomes relevant" - as in, when someone tries to dispel your mage shield then you roll your mage shield pool opposed to theirs. Which is preferable?

EDIT: Oh, and Dispelling damages potency. So if against a Potency 4 shield, the first Dispel gets 3 successes the Potency is now only 1.

Similarly, there's currently nothing stopping players from ritual-warding their battle armour up to 8+ successes with a two week duration.

(Final point is that if you think counter/dispel aren't worthwhile rotes because shields are a bit harder you're not being very imaginative)

[Anarion]

No, I think counter/dispel are even more valuable as rotes. But maybe, I'm misreading that rule. As I read it, it would apply to spells cast in combat as well, so that if I have the same arcana as the foe and, say, gnosis 2, I need to roll 100% successes to be able to counter the spell. My concern is with counterspell specifically because if potency is equal to dots in the arcanum, counterspelling only works if you have the rote, and even then you need to roll really well.

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by Anarion

No, I think counter/dispel are even more valuable as rotes. But maybe, I'm misreading that rule. As I read it, it would apply to spells cast in combat as well, so that if I have the same arcana as the foe and, say, gnosis 2, I need to roll 100% successes to be able to counter the spell. My concern is with counterspell specifically because if potency is equal to dots in the arcanum, counterspelling only works if you have the rote, and even then you need to roll really well.

Oh, no, in combat or any other situation where you don't have the time to focus and get it right you roll as normal. This is just your baseline for walking around spells.



"The theme of Mage is Hubris. You are given ultimate power within the limits of what reality can handle, and you can push those limits if you are OK with getting a couple black eyes. You have immense power over the material world. However, your power is tracked by a stat explicitly called Gnosis, the belief that the world is a flawed and inferior copy of a superior spiritual world. Gradually you grow dissatisfied with living a fantastic life as one of the most powerful supernatural creatures on earth, your every whim granted. You start to buy into the idea that somewhere out there, The Man is Keeping You Down. Nothing is good enough for you and eventually you overreach, probably harming millions of people in the process but screw them, right? They're just sleepers anyhow.

Or you join the Seers and help the gods maintain order in this world, protecting it from the selfish mages who would demand yet more. Sure, they will hate you and spread propaganda about how evil you are, but you will know that you are doing the right thing. And God will know too. And he will show his favor by giving you a Ferrari and a supermodel girlfriend for your birthday. Benevolent. "

This forum seems very consistently pro-Seer.

[the_druid_droid]

Originally Posted by Thanqol

Oh, no, in combat or any other situation where you don't have the time to focus and get it right you roll as normal. This is just your baseline for walking around spells.

Ah, ok with this understanding I fully support the rule. Especially since you can theoretically get crazy awesome Mage Armor and such anyway, if you're willing to suck it up for the ritual (which will improve soon anyway at Gnosis 3).

"The theme of Mage is Hubris. You are given ultimate power within the limits of what reality can handle, and you can push those limits if you are OK with getting a couple black eyes. You have immense power over the material world. However, your power is tracked by a stat explicitly called Gnosis, the belief that the world is a flawed and inferior copy of a superior spiritual world. Gradually you grow dissatisfied with living a fantastic life as one of the most powerful supernatural creatures on earth, your every whim granted. You start to buy into the idea that somewhere out there, The Man is Keeping You Down. Nothing is good enough for you and eventually you overreach, probably harming millions of people in the process but screw them, right? They're just sleepers anyhow.

Or you join the Seers and help the gods maintain order in this world, protecting it from the selfish mages who would demand yet more. Sure, they will hate you and spread propaganda about how evil you are, but you will know that you are doing the right thing. And God will know too. And he will show his favor by giving you a Ferrari and a supermodel girlfriend for your birthday. Benevolent. "

This forum seems very consistently pro-Seer.

Why does this presentation of it make me feel so conflicted... ?

[Anarion]

Originally Posted by Thanqol

This forum seems very consistently pro-Seer.

Really? I would think most people here are socially subversive in various ways. And I'm sure many of us have grand plans and dream of worlds beyond our own. How is the forum pro-seer?

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by Anarion

Really? I would think most people here are socially subversive in various ways. And I'm sure many of us have grand plans and dream of worlds beyond our own. How is the forum pro-seer?

No, the Something Awful forums where I've been reading Mage stuff.

[SiuiS]

Originally Posted by Thanqol

Oh, no, in combat or any other situation where you don't have the time to focus and get it right you roll as normal. This is just your baseline for walking around spells.



"The theme of Mage is Hubris. You are given ultimate power within the limits of what reality can handle, and you can push those limits if you are OK with getting a couple black eyes. You have immense power over the material world. However, your power is tracked by a stat explicitly called Gnosis, the belief that the world is a flawed and inferior copy of a superior spiritual world. Gradually you grow dissatisfied with living a fantastic life as one of the most powerful supernatural creatures on earth, your every whim granted. You start to buy into the idea that somewhere out there, The Man is Keeping You Down. Nothing is good enough for you and eventually you overreach, probably harming millions of people in the process but screw them, right? They're just sleepers anyhow.

Or you join the Seers and help the gods maintain order in this world, protecting it from the selfish mages who would demand yet more. Sure, they will hate you and spread propaganda about how evil you are, but you will know that you are doing the right thing. And God will know too. And he will show his favor by giving you a Ferrari and a supermodel girlfriend for your birthday. Benevolent. "

This forum seems very consistently pro-Seer.

I'm going to nick this almost word for word. Nothing like making the crazy, hermit-inclined paranoid psychos with an agenda look like the bad guys to add moral complexity completely skipped over by the player, amirite?

[the_druid_droid]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

I'm going to nick this almost word for word. Nothing like making the crazy, hermit-inclined paranoid psychos with an agenda look like the bad guys to add moral complexity completely skipped over by the player, amirite?

Just don't talk about the Gate.

[Lix Lorn]

Gate? What gate?

[SiuiS]

I was wondering about that.
Other Exarchs re very clear. Don't talk about the gate. Don't worship the gate. Don't even acknowledge the gate exists.

Why?