Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

[Tiki Snakes]

It's exactly the kind of thing that, should I go matter instead of mind, I could happily try the Fate+Matter grow-your-own-improvement experiment on, because it looks like the kind of thing that probably has a destiny and when it inevitably gets destroyed by the process I don't see a downside.

The risk being that it might actually work.
Hmm.

If I were to be learning Matter instead of Mind, who would the obvious potential tutors be, by the way Thanqol?

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

It's exactly the kind of thing that, should I go matter instead of mind, I could happily try the Fate+Matter grow-your-own-improvement experiment on, because it looks like the kind of thing that probably has a destiny and when it inevitably gets destroyed by the process I don't see a downside.

The risk being that it might actually work.
Hmm.

If I were to be learning Matter instead of Mind, who would the obvious potential tutors be, by the way Thanqol?

This city's a bit short on Moros magi, but Kitch and Chanic are both experts.

[Lix Lorn]

Originally Posted by the_druid_droid

Definitely. That actually reminds me, now that I've posted the final version I can show Rob's recolors that he sent me when I was trying to settle on a shirt color so you can get an idea of Turing's wardrobe:

Spoiler

I love the reversed one enough that I'm designing a character for a different game just to be able to use it.

[the_druid_droid]

Originally Posted by Lix Lorn

I love the reversed one enough that I'm designing a character for a different game just to be able to use it.

[SiuiS]

Originally Posted by the_druid_droid

Totally a tangent, but I misheard something just now and it struck me as a good motto for a Space mage: The shortest distance between two points is a lie.

I always liked the shortest distance between two points being no distance whatsoever. You're already there.

My dad was pissed when I tried that one out. Such a matter-grounded literalist. 9_9

Originally Posted by Anarion

You have guaranteed that the first thing that will happen when you take it out is for Tessen to laugh at you for holding it wrong.

"Yea, that's a lovely cane Turing. Why are you holding a riflebutt and pointing it at your feet? Did you switch hands?"

Next time we get XP, I'm buying at least 1 dot in crafts. I want Tessen to be a bit more of a tinker to go with the ability to get electricity to anything and I'm sad that she currently has no talent to physically inspect this thing, and only the talent to use it.

Pffff no. That's the high wisdom, low functionality route! Just get sufficient mind magic that you can temporarily pull the knowledge from the world soul. It's like, 2 dots. Maybe 3.

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Pffff no. That's the high wisdom, low functionality route! Just get sufficient mind magic that you can temporarily pull the knowledge from the world soul. It's like, 2 dots. Maybe 3.

I don't like the Mind skill buff spell. I'll allow it as a shortcut on training times rather than the temporary dice adder.

[Tiki Snakes]

Originally Posted by Thanqol

This city's a bit short on Moros magi, but Kitch and Chanic are both experts.

So most likely its a choice between learning Mind from Johnny Saxaphone by getting absolutely out of my nut or learning Matter from Chanic, whatever that entails.

(Not that I intrinsically dislike Kitch, having not met him yet, so that's mostly a hunch. Plus you know, I already owe Chanic which could complicate matters.).

So many questions.

Would I know what kind of stuff learning Matter from Chanic and/or Kitch would likely entail, (like Kurosawa's day long spirit visions or Johnny Saxophone's drug stupor mind method)?

I guess the backup question would be, how many dots roughly in each to get to the good stuff;
Mind - Astral Travelly stuff, off the top of my head. Lack any obvious idea of cool experimental stuff I could be aiming for, should probably give the Astral book a read.
Matter - Crazy Matter/Fate experiment to organically grow things into crazy new versions of itself and so on.

[Anarion]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Pffff no. That's the high wisdom, low functionality route! Just get sufficient mind magic that you can temporarily pull the knowledge from the world soul. It's like, 2 dots. Maybe 3.

It seems pretty functional to me. Just the one dot of crafts allows for reasonable rolls to inspect things and do basic repair work, particularly if you aren't rushed.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

I guess the backup question would be, how many dots roughly in each to get to the good stuff;
Mind - Astral Travelly stuff, off the top of my head. Lack any obvious idea of cool experimental stuff I could be aiming for, should probably give the Astral book a read.
Matter - Crazy Matter/Fate experiment to organically grow things into crazy new versions of itself and so on.

A couple dots of mind lets you influence all sorts of stuff in subtle ways and is great for information about people.

A couple dots of matter lets you begin shaping or improving things and is great for being able to interact with the world around you.

[SiuiS]

Originally Posted by Thanqol

I don't like the Mind skill buff spell. I'll allow it as a shortcut on training times rather than the temporary dice adder.

Yes, that is about the point. It's sloppy, lazy, and risks tapping in to that guy who thinks he knows what's going on but has no clue.

Originally Posted by Anarion

It seems pretty functional to me. Just the one dot of crafts allows for reasonable rolls to inspect things and do basic repair work, particularly if you aren't rushed.

a do of crafts gets you reasonable rolls to inspect and repair.
A dot of mind gets you halfway there, plus psychic powers. No contest.


Note, most of my characters are 'do it the hard way to learn and grow' characters. I'm just being obtuse for the fun of it.

[Anarion]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

No contest.

I agree, the dot of crafts is way better for less than half the price.

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

Would I know what kind of stuff learning Matter from Chanic and/or Kitch would likely entail, (like Kurosawa's day long spirit visions or Johnny Saxophone's drug stupor mind method)?

Not really, that depends on how they personally see magic and their overall approach to it. You can talk over what Matter means to them, or make inferences based on their personality.

I guess the backup question would be, how many dots roughly in each to get to the good stuff;
Mind - Astral Travelly stuff, off the top of my head. Lack any obvious idea of cool experimental stuff I could be aiming for, should probably give the Astral book a read.
Matter - Crazy Matter/Fate experiment to organically grow things into crazy new versions of itself and so on.

Astral Travel proper is at 3, I believe. Mind 1 and 2 is emotions, 3 and 4 are thoughts and memories. I'm inclined to make the beginnings of astral travel available at 2, with the deep levels reachable at 3.

Matter: Depends. If you want to create nanobots then that's Matter 4/5, Mind 5, possibly other stuff. If you want to make a car, what, able to repair itself? Matter 3 and conditional spells. Depends. In general, 2 is liquids, 3 is solids, 4 is gases, 5 is creation/destruction.

[Tiki Snakes]

Nothing so fancy as that. Man, it was difficult enough to explain the first time. Let me dredge up our previous conversation

Spoiler

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

Right. I thought there'd be something like that. If it becomes important, it might be worth looking at.

Also, did my research, and there is a Matter 3 rote that would solve this issue for us, if nothing else. Repair Object. Of course, Turing is our only matter mage and is one dot away from that, so it's not an option for anything soon.

I wonder if, at the point where he has enough dots for that kind of spell, there's some kind of fate/matter joint casting we could do to kind of, randomly improve the transmitter, using fate magic to almost organically discern improvements and matter to realise them lastingly and permenantly?
I recall being told about some experiment, (can't find details or remember correct terms to search) where via some kind of randomized process of iteration, they were able to get circuits or a device or something that did it's job with significantly less componants than they thought possible. They didn't understand how it worked anymore at that point, but it still functioned.

Originally Posted by Thanqol

Yep. If you've got Matter 3 then your cabal does indeed have access to perfectly functioning items all the time. Same way as the Life 3 guy means everyone is always healthy.



I think that sounds like a complicated magical experiment that destroys the transmitter for sure the first time you cast it, but you can eventually streamline into something workable.

I am hesitant to allow unlimited self-repairing objects because limited Spell Slots are a major balancing point, but I'll accept trade-offs such as "Vulgar" or "Breaks the moment someone looks at it closely".

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

Not self repairing, the idea would be that you're basically dowsing using fate magic; What if there was a nobbly bit here? And then making any mostly positive changes happen with the Matter side.

So you'd basically end up, in a successful effort, with a transmitter that suddenly transmits much better, out to a much larger range, more clearly, because it's physically capable of doing so.
But that looks like a hideously mutated lump of inexplicable, SCP entry style machinery, or HEX.

Which would be...interesting.

Originally Posted by Thanqol

A bit of a misunderstanding of Fate Magic here. Fate magic works in Destinies. It's at it's best with big, nonspecific phrases like "THIS TRANSMITTER WILL BE ALL THAT IT CAN BE" or "THIS RADIO SHOW WILL BE HEARD BY ALL!"

And then you sit back and let reality work out the details.

So with this thing you're talking about, you'd be setting a Destiny for the machine, and then giving that Destiny some access to contingent Matter Magic to help it along. This is different and more dangerous than a simple contingent spell; a contingent spell triggers once; Fate hits and the mousetrap snaps. What you're talking about here is letting Fate design the mousetrap.

Doing that in a non-explosive way is hard, and it's not an area of magic covered in the book so it'd basically be pure experimentation from your end. But if you were able to practise it a whole bunch, wrecking a whole bunch of things and following it through like a plot thread you'd eventually be able to discover some fascinating stuff about the Arcanum and how they interact. Rewards might be rotes, arcane XP, prestige or an entire subdiscipline of conjunctional magic.


tl;dr : It sounds cool and raises a lot of questions, so those questions should be investigated in-game.

So, yes, letting fate design the mousetrap, as you put it. To get started on a crazy plan like this, that would be what, Fate 3/4 and Matter something?

(Now if only I had an idea as major and as insane to go with the alternate choice of mind).

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

So, yes, letting fate design the mousetrap, as you put it. To get started on a crazy plan like this, that would be what, Fate 3/4 and Matter something?

(Now if only I had an idea as major and as insane to go with the alternate choice of mind).

Matter 2 for liquids, 3 for solids, 4 for gases and complex solids.

[Tiki Snakes]

Originally Posted by Thanqol

Matter 2 for liquids, 3 for solids, 4 for gases and complex solids.

So in theory, all I'd need is enough fate to craft destinies and enough matter to work with the target material?

(Which probably translates to 3 at least, because I can't imagine how I'd apply the theory to liquids in any meaningful way. Heh).

Mmm. Checking, that would mean potentially needing Fate 5 to create a destiny. That's pretty expensive. I take it the False Destiny spell, lacking the momentum of actual destiny, would be insufficient for this purpose. Mmm. Well, that evens the choices back up pretty significantly.

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

So in theory, all I'd need is enough fate to craft destinies and enough matter to work with the target material?

(Which probably translates to 3 at least, because I can't imagine how I'd apply the theory to liquids in any meaningful way. Heh).

Mmm. Checking, that would mean potentially needing Fate 5 to create a destiny. That's pretty expensive. I take it the False Destiny spell, lacking the momentum of actual destiny, would be insufficient for this purpose. Mmm. Well, that evens the choices back up pretty significantly.

You don't need to create destinies from scratch. That's very much against the vein of Awakened magic and why it's at 5. More practically, you find a destiny that is similar, you transfer it across, and you strengthen, weaken, or warp it until it does what you want.

[SiuiS]

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

Nothing so fancy as that. Man, it was difficult enough to explain the first time. Let me dredge up our previous conversation



So, yes, letting fate design the mousetrap, as you put it. To get started on a crazy plan like this, that would be what, Fate 3/4 and Matter something?

(Now if only I had an idea as major and as insane to go with the alternate choice of mind).

Looking at it, I think you're examining the system with too fine a granularity. This sounds like using Platonic Mechanism, in that the object functions as perfectly as it is physically able to. The how it gets there is hand waved. Similar to how you wanted gun-fu, and the shiel kind of already does that. It feels like you're looking too close to see the answer.

You want to divine what could make the transmitter better, and then enact that. Physically, platonic mechanism covers that. Fate would be makin it so that freak storm clouds built up by the abyssal cracks generate enough static charge to somehow carry the signal, unleashing radio waves from their thunder. Time would be seeing what things will befall the antennae and using matter to rig them now to take advantage of the perfect storm then.

That's my take on the system, anyway. Your plan sounds much more fun I think.

[SiuiS]

Get a demense. Using matter to craft liquids with properties unique to metals, creating a system of kaballic, geometric tubing and filling I with this condense liquid Aether, using Moros of various polished minerals in the right correspondent locations and having Tessen broadcast from a stone lily pad amidst a pool of mercury, would turn the entire skyscraper into a semisupernal supertransmitter.

Heck, screw the demense. Go for it anyway, and then have tying fashion the most futuristic, bling-tastic antenna possible, bolt it to your roof and tell people it does the transmission. Kick disbelief to the curb as the RIA tries to figure out the flick this thing does.

[Tiki Snakes]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Looking at it, I think you're examining the system with too fine a granularity. This sounds like using Platonic Mechanism, in that the object functions as perfectly as it is physically able to. The how it gets there is hand waved. Similar to how you wanted gun-fu, and the shiel kind of already does that. It feels like you're looking too close to see the answer.

You want to divine what could make the transmitter better, and then enact that. Physically, platonic mechanism covers that. Fate would be makin it so that freak storm clouds built up by the abyssal cracks generate enough static charge to somehow carry the signal, unleashing radio waves from their thunder. Time would be seeing what things will befall the antennae and using matter to rig them now to take advantage of the perfect storm then.

That's my take on the system, anyway. Your plan sounds much more fun I think.

Yeah, Platonic Mechanism is awesome, but it really doesn't do what I'm talking about. I'm literally talking about mutating devices into doing more, rather than simply stopping them malfunctioning and such. You'd end up with a technically mundane object that just happens to function better than it has any right to and whose construction makes very little sense at all because it's been grown rather than designed.

Platonic Mechanism is a good themeatic starting point though, and if I do go down this route, that might be the source of Jack's inspiration as he does know that Rote.

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Get a demense. Using matter to craft liquids with properties unique to metals, creating a system of kaballic, geometric tubing and filling I with this condense liquid Aether, using Moros of various polished minerals in the right correspondent locations and having Tessen broadcast from a stone lily pad amidst a pool of mercury, would turn the entire skyscraper into a semisupernal supertransmitter.

Heck, screw the demense. Go for it anyway, and then have tying fashion the most futuristic, bling-tastic antenna possible, bolt it to your roof and tell people it does the transmission. Kick disbelief to the curb as the RIA tries to figure out the flick this thing does.

That does sound pretty awesome. Though sending Tessen mad from mercury poisoning might be a bit of a negative side effect, as would the alternative of Tessen having to broadcast with a gasmask on.

[SiuiS]

Okay I see. You're talking about life, not date. Evolution. A machine which develops into a better more specialized machine.

Probably matter 4, life 3 (granting basal traits to an object) time ? (for accelerated evolution) and maybe fate for being able to grow well instead of becoming a throwback.

What's a throwback radio antenna anyway? A laser gun?


And she wouldn't have to be poisoned. You're a wizard in a demense. You gonna let reality limit you? Are you gonna take that from Reality?! THE LIE TRIES TO BLOCK, SHOW IT YOU ROCK!

But seriously. Matter can change conductivity of electrical current. In theory, matter could also change thermal conductivity, or kinetic. You could rig a microphone to cause the entire tower to oscillate, and the surface material coverts it into radio waves instead of straight sound. You can do all sorts of neat things. I plan on having a character with sunglasses that are clear as day for him, and literally opaque for anyone looking in, because I can.

Yes, I keep missing that the antenna being awesome isn't the point. The traits of an organism manifesting themselves are. Sorry. >_<

[Tiki Snakes]

It's not about making creatures either, though evolution itself is a good comparison, so I don't see where life comes into it. It still wouldn't be alive, it would remain a machine. A Transmitter perhaps, to continue the example. It just wouldn't necessarily follow human design principles anymore or any kind of logical or planned structure.

(Though yes, making creatures out of artificial things is called out in the book as possible apparently, but that's quite beside the point).

[SiuiS]

Remember that there is no phenomena outside the ten arcana. They work via symbolism as well as straight literal function. Fate is which road you will walk in life. Space is where you'll be and how close to others. Death is endings, severance. Spirit is spirituality manifest. Matter is the solid fictions of the lie. Time is temporal understanding. Forces are direct effects without mechanical cause. Life is growth and change.

You can use life to turn corn into bees. You can use life to give yourself a starfish's regeneration. Or you can use life to give a rock the growt characteristic of a basal creature. There are 4 levels, inanimate, basal, medial and sapient. Life is as much involved in giving an antenna growth potential as it is in going a human claws. You are making an inanimate object behave in a fashion outside its arcanum (matter) and fate doesn't do what you want it to.


Any pony else feel free to jump in. I'm far from an expert here. Deadly? You've had a rash of stunning insights I find remarkable and worth study. What do you think?

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Remember that there is no phenomena outside the ten arcana. They work via symbolism as well as straight literal function. Fate is which road you will walk in life. Space is where you'll be and how close to others. Death is endings, severance. Spirit is spirituality manifest. Matter is the solid fictions of the lie. Time is temporal understanding. Forces are direct effects without mechanical cause. Life is growth and change.

You can use life to turn corn into bees. You can use life to give yourself a starfish's regeneration. Or you can use life to give a rock the growt characteristic of a basal creature. There are 4 levels, inanimate, basal, medial and sapient. Life is as much involved in giving an antenna growth potential as it is in going a human claws. You are making an inanimate object behave in a fashion outside its arcanum (matter) and fate doesn't do what you want it to.


Any pony else feel free to jump in. I'm far from an expert here. Deadly? You've had a rash of stunning insights I find remarkable and worth study. What do you think?

Bringing Life into this is strange. If it's alive, then it'll have instincts, it'll have reproductive potential, and it'll have the capacity to evolve. It won't have the directed ability to change itself, which is Mind. Fate in this context is the Arcana of end goals.

So how it works in my mind is that Fate sets the destination, and you then imbue the item with some sort of self-maintaining magic that allows it to progress itself towards that end goal.

[Tiki Snakes]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Remember that there is no phenomena outside the ten arcana. They work via symbolism as well as straight literal function. Fate is which road you will walk in life. Space is where you'll be and how close to others. Death is endings, severance. Spirit is spirituality manifest. Matter is the solid fictions of the lie. Time is temporal understanding. Forces are direct effects without mechanical cause. Life is growth and change.

You can use life to turn corn into bees. You can use life to give yourself a starfish's regeneration. Or you can use life to give a rock the growt characteristic of a basal creature. There are 4 levels, inanimate, basal, medial and sapient. Life is as much involved in giving an antenna growth potential as it is in going a human claws. You are making an inanimate object behave in a fashion outside its arcanum (matter) and fate doesn't do what you want it to.


Any pony else feel free to jump in. I'm far from an expert here. Deadly? You've had a rash of stunning insights I find remarkable and worth study. What do you think?

I'm just not sure where you're getting this thing about me wanting to transfer qualities of living creatures across from.

And no, Life doesn't allow you to give rocks qualities of living creatures, Matter + Life does. As far as I understand, there are 3 stages, inanimate isn't mentioned as part of Life that I can see. Living things only.

I'm talking about metaphorical growth, not literally making matter into organisms.

That said, turning machines into weird, living versions of themselves would also be hilarious and awesome. Though more depressing too, what with the whole damaged-by-disbelief thing.

edit - Oh, and I'm not talking some kind of long term ongoing thing, the idea was that the whole contingent matter thing would do it's stuff and then be done.

[SiuiS]

Pffff I dismissed mind out of good because I was thinking it only applied to computers. I don't even get my own logic on that one. Would probably work best for self-actuality ion, although you still need a mechanic whereby the device, once it underpass it's own needs, can fulfill them.

Not alive though. Merely having a trait - the ability to change its structure to respond to stimuli. In the same way a sunflower turns toward the sun, or that magnetic rock polarizes when freezing. An arcanum should be able to achieve less than its maximum potential at any point, an life magic needn't deal with cells, metabolism an genetics at all, remember, in the same way matter can very easily ignore chemistry entirely and work on an alchemical level. Don't limit the character because the player expects science to be the baseline, silly.

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

I'm just not sure where you're getting this thing about me wanting to transfer qualities of living creatures across from.

I'm not. That's a comparison.

And no, Life doesn't allow you to give rocks qualities of living creatures, Matter + Life does. As far as I understand, there are 3 stages, inanimate isn't mentioned as part of Life that I can see. Living things only.

Now you're being coy. Neither does fate alone. It's been a discussion of conjunctional magic from the start. I am making a case for one of the other components, not the sole one.

I'm talking about metaphorical growth

So am I.

edit - Oh, and I'm not talking some kind of long term ongoing thing, the idea was that the whole contingent matter thing would do it's stuff and then be done.

ah. Then I point to my prior statements about time and fate.

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

I'm just not sure where you're getting this thing about me wanting to transfer qualities of living creatures across from.

And no, Life doesn't allow you to give rocks qualities of living creatures, Matter + Life does. As far as I understand, there are 3 stages, inanimate isn't mentioned as part of Life that I can see. Living things only.

Truth, Life doesn't work on dead wood.

That said, turning machines into weird, living versions of themselves would also be hilarious and awesome. Though more depressing too, what with the whole damaged-by-disbelief thing.

Nobody needs to know that your car has a hundred little mouths on the bottom, allowing it to graze when you park it in a grassy field. You just quietly reap the mileage benefits.

[SiuiS]

Originally Posted by Thanqol

Nobody needs to know that your car has a hundred little mouths on the bottom, allowing it to graze when you park it in a grassy field. You just quietly reap the mileage benefits.

Could you she some light on that? Because the book seems to say very strongly that a Mage who somehow creates a perfect example of a gorilla, an breaks it out of the gorilla habitat at the zoo, and publicly announces the gorilla escape, will still suffer is belief when people see this gorilla at the zoo. Because no matter how much it makes sense for a gorilla to be at the zoo, it's magic.

If a wizard loses his boosted intelligence within minutes of normal human interaction just because (as it seems to rabidly imply; covering up covert spells only seemed to mitigate paradox and vulgarity) then no wonder wizards are all hermits.

[the_druid_droid]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

You can use life to turn corn into bees. You can use life to give yourself a starfish's regeneration. Or you can use life to give a rock the growt characteristic of a basal creature. There are 4 levels, inanimate, basal, medial and sapient. Life is as much involved in giving an antenna growth potential as it is in going a human claws. You are making an inanimate object behave in a fashion outside its arcanum (matter) and fate doesn't do what you want it to.

I have the oddest mental image of a magical rock-slug now, and I'm not sure I should go to sleep with it still in my brain.

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

I'm just not sure where you're getting this thing about me wanting to transfer qualities of living creatures across from.

I think he's considering a sort of evolutionary principle. An archetype of living systems extracted and imbued to objects, without necessarily making them Alive.

Originally Posted by Thanqol

Nobody needs to know that your car has a hundred little mouths on the bottom, allowing it to graze when you park it in a grassy field. You just quietly reap the mileage benefits.

I find the mental image vaguely terrifying.

And people say you can't run horror games with Mage.

EDIT: Re: Disbelief - From looking over the spell list, I'm pretty sure this only applies if Sleepers recognize it as magical. Hence telepathic communication qualifies, but personality re-writing doesn't.

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Could you she some light on that? Because the book seems to say very strongly that a Mage who somehow creates a perfect example of a gorilla, an breaks it out of the gorilla habitat at the zoo, and publicly announces the gorilla escape, will still suffer is belief when people see this gorilla at the zoo. Because no matter how much it makes sense for a gorilla to be at the zoo, it's magic.

What? Where? That's dumb. Disbelief is 100% a symptom of Sleeper perception.

Vulgar magic has a chance of paradox regardless, but Disbelief is a product of Sleepers disbelieving.

If a wizard loses his boosted intelligence within minutes of normal human interaction just because (as it seems to rabidly imply; covering up covert spells only seemed to mitigate paradox and vulgarity) then no wonder wizards are all hermits.

That's the most inaccurate and wrong thing I've ever heard. Covert magic certainly doesn't provoke disbelief.

And people say you can't run horror games with Mage.

No one's ever said that. The difference is that Mages are the source of the horror, not the victims.

[Thanqol]

SiuiS, you're wrong. Mage: The Awakening, p247

Disbelief When a Sleeper encounters magic or the supernatural, he
cannot usually cope with what he sees. Supernatural disturbances
trouble Sleepers who witness them — until the
embrace of Disbelief erases all evidence of the occurrence
from their minds.
Mages debate endlessly about why this is so. Ancient
records have no references to any such effect before the fall
of Atlantis and the division of the worlds. It seems that
human souls, cut off from the Supernal World and exiled to
the Fallen World, cannot cope with the truth of magic.
Something violently tries to keep their eyes shut.
When a Sleeper witnesses a vulgar act of magic, it always
triggers Disbelief. The Sleeper’s reaction depends on his
Willpower. In many cases, the effects alter or amend the
Sleeper’s memory of the event, but humans have been
known to react in unpredictable ways. If multiple humans
witness the same vulgar act of magic, each interprets it
differently according to his Willpower and the resources his
unconscious mind uses to explain the event.

Covert magic does not trigger Disbelief unless it strains
credulity (see “Improbable Magic,” p. 112).

Also, the powers
of supernatural creatures do not trigger Disbelief. Vampires,
werewolves, spirits, ghosts and other strange beings can use
their powers freely before the eyes of Sleepers. Mages theorize
that Disbelief is a Sleeper’s soul denying the truth of the
Supernal World, as displayed by vulgar Awakened magic.
The powers of other creatures, mages believe, originate in
the Fallen World and do not stir the soul’s memory of its
fallen tragedy. In a sense, Disbelief is a near Awakening, but
one that denies Awakening itself.

[the_druid_droid]

Originally Posted by Thanqol

No one's ever said that. The difference is that Mages are the source of the horror, not the victims.

I heartily agree with your view, but I've found a few discussions in places that at least seem to imply some people don't believe it. I would argue they're wrong, but they seem to exist.