A small fleet of Culture Vessels crosses the vast expanse between the Galaxies and arrives at the outer limits of the 40k Galaxy.
Setting themselves the task of converting the ENTIRE 40k galaxy and all its factions to their way of thinking. How do they fare?
The Culture Fleet consists of a single Systems Class GSU (controlled by 3 Minds), a single GSV (controlled by 1 Mind) and a pair of GCU's (controlled by 1 Mind each) . With 300million starting population of assorted Pan-Humans & Drones.
How does the Culture proceed? To they go in guns blazing, sit back and manipulate or something in between?
It should be fairly apparent that space combat wise the Culture would dominate totally, but this isn't (necessarily) about blasting the opposition to atoms.
How do they deal with unyielding threats like Tyranids, Orcs, Necrons, Chaos etc?
What about the more approachable factions (for dialogue anyway) like Eldar or Tau?
How long would it all take or are they doomed to corruption by Chaos from the outset?
Notes:
Hyperspace, Grid Energy and all the other fancy Culture technology work perfectly fine and according to its own rules in the 40kverse.
The Culture begins with zero knowledge of anything to do with the 40kverse. No knowledge of Chaos, of Psychics, The Warp or anything. A complete Blank Slate.
Conversely, no one in the 40kverse knows anything about the Culture, not Chaos, not Eldar Farseers, no one.
I think this was done already but I don't recall where the thread is. Offhand though the Culture fleet seems too small to deal with the entire 40k universe. If the GSU and GSV can create new minds and new ships then I suppose it would work. They'd just need to sit somewhere and make sure no one found them until they had a bigger fleet.
Unconvertable enemies like Tyranids/Orks/Necrons will just be exterminated - the Culture has the tech, so if they're allowed to set up whatever they use for factories and start manufacturing military equipment, effortless win. Tau will jump aboard at the first opportunity given. Eldar will say yes and try to spin the situation to their benefit. Imperium will be approached diplomatically, and when rebuffed, get beaten mercilessly until it falls apart and gets absorbed piecemeal.
Culture is one of the upper-level factions that can pretty much effortlessly stomp the 40Kverse in an outright fight, and the nature of GRIMDARK means the only effective diplomacy will be of the gunboat variety.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
So, out of pure curiosity, whatever hapened to the usual arguments of "40K weapons and armor are automatically a zillion times better than everybody else's just because, termodynamics, logic and actual results portrayed in the fluff/crunch be damned".
EDIT: With the orks at least, their "tech" work simply because they think it works after all.
Last edited by deuterio12 : 09-24-2012 at 08:27 AM.
Considering the genetic manipulation abilities of the Culture, could they potentially 'breed /engineer the angry out' of Orks or indeed Tyranids? I dont think the Culture have ever gone for Genocide (Xenocide?) as a solution. Maybe they would try to limit them to a small area of the Galaxy.
Im not sure the Necrons current fluff, but didn't they use to be a race that got tricked and mind-slaved into robo-bodies or something to that effect? could the Culture Liberate them?
How does Chaos play out in all this? I dont think Khorne or Nurgle would have much fun with them, but given the typical Culture citizens life stlye Slaanesh would have a field day.
Tzeentch could be tricky. Culture Minds like to play out long-term convoluted plans, that seems right up Tzeentchs ally.
So, out of pure curiosity, whatever hapened to the usual arguments of "40K weapons and armor are automatically a zillion times better than everybody else's just because, termodynamics, logic and actual results portrayed in the fluff/crunch be damned".
Because whatever fluff technobabble 40k has, the Culture has the same and so much more, and more efficient too.
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Originally Posted by Thanqol
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So, out of pure curiosity, whatever hapened to the usual arguments of "40K weapons and armor are automatically a zillion times better than everybody else's just because, termodynamics, logic and actual results portrayed in the fluff/crunch be damned".
That was rarely ever an argument. 40k tech is rarely all that high. What 40k has is scale. 40k can throw billions of soldiers at a problem, ships that are miles long, and projectiles bigger than some universes ships.
Yes, the numbers are a bit inflated, often, and some of their stuff is silly as written up. Their huge numbers mean that, to beat them, you either need scale that is even more ridiculous, or a gigantic technological edge that is good enough that the Empire can throw as much mass at you as they want, it won't help.
The culture is the second.
“Not a promise, not an oath, or a malediction or a curse,” I said, sounding calm, probably inaudible in the midst of the screaming. “Inevitable. Wasn’t that how she put it? I told them. Warned them.”
-Taylor Hebert. Yes, I'm a proud Skittle.
Considering the genetic manipulation of the Culture, could they potentially 'breed /engineer the angry out' of Orks or indeed Tyranids? I dont think the Culture have ever gone for Genocide (Xenocide?) as a solution. Maybe they would try to limit them to a small area of the Galaxy.
Yes. Well, not breed the angry out, the Old Ones were wicked-crazy genetic engineers. But they could easily close them into a small box in the galatic sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parra
Im not sure the Necrons current fluff, but didn't they use to be a race that got tricked and mind-slaved into robo-bodies or something to that effect? could the Culture Liberate them?
Even Oldcrons, while being tricked into the new bodies, were happy enough to be SUDDENLYIMMORTAL! They just happened to become... A lot more devoted to thier C'tan. And robots without souls.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parra
How does Chaos play out in all this? I dont think Khorne or Nurgle would have much fun with them, but given the typical Culture citizens life stlye Slaanesh would have a field day.
Tzeentch could be tricky. Culture Minds like to play out long-term convoluted plans, that seems right up Tzeentchs ally.
The Culture can destroy all the physical forces of Chaos, the problem will be if the Culture learns that psyker = way to beat Chaos. Because once you make psykers on your team, to win, you start losing. The best plan would be to steal Oldcrons technology and enact the Universe Seperation Plan.
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Rowe's Rule: the odds are five to six that the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an oncoming train.
So, out of pure curiosity, whatever hapened to the usual arguments of "40K weapons and armor are automatically a zillion times better than everybody else's just because, termodynamics, logic and actual results portrayed in the fluff/crunch be damned".
Cause that's not the case? 40K almost always wins because their stuff, as shown by fluff, is straight up better than pretty much everything else. However the Culture is the Culture and can doncrazy stuff like directly manipulate the brains of people with electro-magnetic fields across a solar system.
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At the heart of all beauty lies something inhuman, and these hills, the softness of the sky, the outline of the trees at this very minute lose the illusory meaning with which we clothed them, henceforth more remote than a lost paradise.
-Camus, An Absurd Reasoning
Cause that's not the case? 40K almost always wins because their stuff, as shown by fluff, is straight up better than pretty much everything else. However the Culture is the Culture and can doncrazy stuff like directly manipulate the brains of people with electro-magnetic fields across a solar system.
Pretty much. Even Fan, the most diehard 40K proponent we have here, doesn't argue that serious heavyweights like the Culture can school 40K. There just isn't very many of them. Culture, Lensmen, Getter Robo/Gurren Lagaan, etc.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
That was rarely ever an argument. 40k tech is rarely all that high. What 40k has is scale. 40k can throw billions of soldiers at a problem, ships that are miles long, and projectiles bigger than some universes ships.
Yes, the numbers are a bit inflated, often, and some of their stuff is silly as written up. Their huge numbers mean that, to beat them, you either need scale that is even more ridiculous, or a gigantic technological edge that is good enough that the Empire can throw as much mass at you as they want, it won't help.
The culture is the second.
See, you don't need to reach Culture level to pull that off.
Billions of soldiers? Biological weapons/nukes. Even we have them. I fear what may be developed in the next decades, let alone the next centuries/millenia.
Really big ships? Last time I checked most of the time they have to use hordes of slaves to operate most of the systems, and their aim is so poor that boarding enemy ships is an extremely viable tactic in 40kverse. So ok current tech couldn't beat that, but any setting with ships operated by actual tech instead of masses of slaves and priests that have to chant before pressing any buttons will have a devastating advantage.
Last edited by deuterio12 : 09-24-2012 at 08:40 AM.
The Culture can destroy all the physical forces of Chaos, the problem will be if the Culture learns that psyker = way to beat Chaos. Because once you make psykers on your team, to win, you start losing. The best plan would be to steal Oldcrons technology and enact the Universe Seperation Plan.
That, or calm the warp. Get everyone to follow their races equivalent of the Eldar path and be peaceful while at it. The warp was calm in the past, if the culture can solve most of civilization's problems, it could be again.
And that, I think, is something the Culture could well do, given that engineering societies is one of their strengths.
“Not a promise, not an oath, or a malediction or a curse,” I said, sounding calm, probably inaudible in the midst of the screaming. “Inevitable. Wasn’t that how she put it? I told them. Warned them.”
-Taylor Hebert. Yes, I'm a proud Skittle.
If you're a True WH40K Fan, then it's a matter of honor for you to show that WH40K can win all vs threads, no matter how little sense it makes and how many pre-established rules you have to break in order to achieve victory. Bonus points if you don't even know the other setting and just assume that WH40K will beat it with Exterminatus/sheer numbers/Chaos Corruption/Emprah Ex Machina.
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Last edited by Tengu_temp : 09-24-2012 at 08:53 AM.
That, or calm the warp. Get everyone to follow their races equivalent of the Eldar path and be peaceful while at it. The warp was calm in the past, if the culture can solve most of civilization's problems, it could be again.
And that, I think, is something the Culture could well do, given that engineering societies is one of their strengths.
Some Culture citizens have also shown near lemming like willingness to try new things. I would say it would be quite easy for Slannesh to get a toehold in them. I think Chaos infected Culture-Tech would be a scary thing. Let alone if one of their Minds got corrupted or infested somehow.
Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tengu_temp
If you're a True WH40K Fan, then it's a matter of honor for you to show that WH40K can win all vs threads, no matter how little sense it makes and how many pre-established rules you have to break in order to achieve victory. Bonus points if you don't even know the other setting and just assume that WH40K will beat it with Exterminatus/sheer numbers/Emprah Ex Machina.
To that end. What if the Culture fixed the Golden Throne or Revived the Big E himself thinking it would further their goals?
They have made errors of judgement in the past
If you're a True WH40K Fan, then it's a matter of honor for you to show that WH40K can win all vs threads, no matter how little sense it makes and how many pre-established rules you have to break in order to achieve victory. Bonus points if you don't even know the other setting and just assume that WH40K will beat it with Exterminatus/sheer numbers/Emprah Ex Machina.
Uh, no. I'm a 40k fan, and I'm quite sure they'll lose this one. Plus, the Emprah would probably like the Culture. Or at least part of it. He would probably start Butler's Jihad on their sentient machines.
“Not a promise, not an oath, or a malediction or a curse,” I said, sounding calm, probably inaudible in the midst of the screaming. “Inevitable. Wasn’t that how she put it? I told them. Warned them.”
-Taylor Hebert. Yes, I'm a proud Skittle.
That, or calm the warp. Get everyone to follow their races equivalent of the Eldar path and be peaceful while at it. The warp was calm in the past, if the culture can solve most of civilization's problems, it could be again.
And that, I think, is something the Culture could well do, given that engineering societies is one of their strengths.
Yeah, but I mean. Telling everyone "You are not allowed to have fun. Ever." is kind of against thier whole Have Fun policy.
See Also ; Why Slaanesh is hard to kill in a large-scale biological society that isn't crushingly strict.
...
On the Emperor Topic ; He would probably love it. Want to rule it, but love it. Although, there's the Iron Men thing. Big E might have a bit of a hangup on robots, still.
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Last edited by Kinslayer : 09-24-2012 at 08:55 AM.
Uh, no. I'm a 40k fan, and I'm quite sure they'll lose this one. Plus, the Emprah would probably like the Culture. Or at least part of it. He would probably start Butler's Jihad on their sentient machines.
Then you're not a True WK40K Fan, just a normal one. Do note that being a True Anything Fan is a bad thing.
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Uh, no. I'm a 40k fan, and I'm quite sure they'll lose this one. Plus, the Emprah would probably like the Culture. Or at least part of it. He would probably start Butler's Jihad on their sentient machines.
Aye. The Culture is probably the living embodiment of what he envisioned for mankind.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanqol
We don't have enough pony to fill a subforum. We have enough friendship to fill a ponythread.
Okay, yeah. Guess I'm not a True Fan. In fact, I find the 40k humans crushingly boring for the most part. Čverything interesting happens to the aliens.
“Not a promise, not an oath, or a malediction or a curse,” I said, sounding calm, probably inaudible in the midst of the screaming. “Inevitable. Wasn’t that how she put it? I told them. Warned them.”
-Taylor Hebert. Yes, I'm a proud Skittle.
Aye. The Culture is probably the living embodiment of what he envisioned for mankind.
If the culture was what the emprah envisioned for mankind, then he wouldn't have put his army in charge of mutants with pretty clear mental disorders and let them loose with explicit orders of "shoot first, ask questions later".
This is, Lorgar did start as a pretty diplomatic guy, until the emprah basically told him that actual diplomacy was way too slow and he should simply open up negotiations with orbital bombardments for the sake of speed, casualities and stablishing good relationships be damned. Cue existencial crisis that led him to seek and find the chaos gods.
Last edited by deuterio12 : 09-24-2012 at 09:26 AM.
So, out of pure curiosity, whatever hapened to the usual arguments of "40K weapons and armor are automatically a zillion times better than everybody else's just because, termodynamics, logic and actual results portrayed in the fluff/crunch be damned".
EDIT: With the orks at least, their "tech" work simply because they think it works after all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tengu_temp
If you're a True WH40K Fan, then it's a matter of honor for you to show that WH40K can win all vs threads, no matter how little sense it makes and how many pre-established rules you have to break in order to achieve victory. Bonus points if you don't even know the other setting and just assume that WH40K will beat it with Exterminatus/sheer numbers/Chaos Corruption/Emprah Ex Machina.
Which only goes to show that the only thing worse than a rabid [insert-setting]-proponent is an equally rabid [insert-setting] detractor...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombimode
Glyphstone, you are an evil person :D
Last edited by The Glyphstone : 09-24-2012 at 10:07 AM.
On the Emperor Topic ; He would probably love it. Want to rule it, but love it. Although, there's the Iron Men thing. Big E might have a bit of a hangup on robots, still.
The Emperor would loathe the Culture. His attitude to aliens is 'kill them all', the Culture are aliens (or at least so interbred as to make them so in the eyes of the Imperium). Any hopes for mankind would have to start with the deaths of the Emperor and pretty much every space marine.
I think the Culture would try to reprogramme the Necrons and contain the Orcs. The Tyrannids have controlling intelligences ( I think) so I suspect the Minds would try to convince them to establish a stable society in a sector rather than a moving, slash and burn, one
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Last edited by comicshorse : 09-24-2012 at 10:19 AM.
I'm getting a vision. its like. this thread. it has happened before. on this. very board!(and its making me talk like Shatner)
In in while everyone quickly agree the Culture would stomp the Imperium. The argument quickly became whether Chaos would corrupt the Culture from within. To which I think they *might* even have a point.
I'm pretty sure the previous thread was the entire Culture vs WH40K. The OP has sensibly limited it to just a Culture fleet
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The Emperor would loathe the Culture. His attitude to aliens is 'kill them all', the Culture are aliens (or at least so interbred as to make them so in the eyes of the Imperium). Any hopes for mankind would have to start with the deaths of the Emperor and pretty much every space marine.
Well, the Emperor was getting along alright with Eldar. Probably up until he tried to insert a new Human Webway Entrance. He was also okay with the other, non-aggressive-in-any-way aliens. Did he have a preference for humans? Yeah. If given control of the galaxy, would he slowly grind all aliens out of exsistance? Prrrobably. Would he commit instant-war-of-genocide against something like the Jokaero, just so they weren't around? No.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deuterio12
If the culture was what the emprah envisioned for mankind, then he wouldn't have put his army in charge of mutants with pretty clear mental disorders and let them loose with explicit orders of "shoot first, ask questions later".
Er. No, that isn't what happened. It was "Join the Emperor, or die. But first, lets sit and discuss why you should surrender."
Quote:
Originally Posted by deuterio12
This is, Lorgar did start as a pretty diplomatic guy, until the emprah basically told him that actual diplomacy was way too slow and he should simply open up negotiations with orbital bombardments for the sake of speed, casualities and stablishing good relationships be damned. Cue existencial crisis that led him to seek and find the chaos gods.
No, Lorgar started as a religious guy, telling everyone that the Emperor was a god. E gets Gulliman's Ultras and goes and burns down all the now-fanatical planets, and tells Lorgar, "Hey. This is exactly the opposite of what I wanted."
Did E-Man do it in a terrible, control-freak-ish way? Hells yes.
Was it anything to do with "Too Slow"? Not really. Lorgar was only going about the same speed as the other contenders for Slowest, he just happened to be sitting down and writing the new religon on the side.
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Rowe's Rule: the odds are five to six that the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an oncoming train.
The Emperor was actually somewhat restrained toward Aliens, if I remember correctly. His problem was with how many had moved against Humanity. Even in the current day, Aliens can get along with the Imperium(usually in an utterly subservient role, but still).
Also, I believe his problem with Lorgar was the whole 'creating a cult to the Emperor' thing. In addition, I'm pretty sure the Space Marines were only sent in once it became clear that war was the only option, and were largely meant as a spearhead for the rest of the crusade, not the long term rulers.
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I must admit I'm only going off the Horus Heresy novels here but the space marines comments on the credo of the Imperium is pretty clear. If you can, kill all aliens.
Many times the crusade invade and annihilate alien cultures that are abbsolutely no threat to the Imperium
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Obviously they would annihilate most of the other factions militarily, but I'm not so sure they could steamroller the Necrons. Remember; there are only a handful of Tombworlds active out of hundreds or thousands, there is no way to permanently kill a Necron, their tech is much higher than the standard and their C'Tan overlords are literally gods. Not to say the Necrons would win, but they would keep them from taking over the entire galaxy until they Chaos'd themselves to death.
The Culture has absolutely no defense against Chaos; obviously Slaanesh-worship would be their biggest problem, but Tzeentch and Nurgle would also likely have a lot of appeal to the people of the Culture. Even without explicit worship, the ordinary hedonistic activities of their people would cause a serious problem if they have any Warp-presence at all.
So it would probably be a tougher fight than people have been assuming, and the Culture would end up a lot more GrimDark just because of the need to avoid succumbing to Chaos entirely.
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