The Culture v's 40kverse

[HandofShadows]

Originally Posted by deuterio12

Chaos on the other hand allows one to pursue their own goals. Be it chopping stuff or orgies or researching new things or simply enjoying life. The chaos gods actually want humanity to thrive, because they depend on their emotions as nourishment, whetever good or bad. Chaos doesn't hand out things for free like the Culture either, it makes you work for them and prove your worth.

I think it's more like

Chaos allows you to persue their goals while all the time thinking they are your goals. Be it chopping up people, orgies of torture, researching horrible ways to twist living beings or simple enjoing life by becomening chaos's puppet. The chaos gods actually want humanity ot thrive, because they feed off our emotions like parasites. Chaos does not hand out things for free like the Culture either, it makes you over into a monster as your payment.

[Parra]

Originally Posted by HandofShadows

You forgot the quarter of mile of island that in front of the SDF-1. And what kind of power is needed to get through miles of ocean and still core a 500meter warhsip with no problem? A LOT more than a simple nuke.

Correct. However, if its passed through the Ocean, passed through a piece of the Earth and still had enough power to pass completely through the warship with ease then it also had A LOT more power than was required to destroy the ship. Maybe a nuke was just minimally enough to destroy one.

Either way this is way off topic

[Luzahn]

Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander

Winning what, exactly?

And your measure of agency is killing things?

I will just point out that the Culture citizens have more choice in their own destiny than either you OR me, by a long country mile; they aren't beholden to work for their basic necessities (or their luxuries), and if they want to go out and make a difference in the universe, they can.

If you are suggesting that for humanity to have "value", that people must be exposed to suffering and misery... Well.

Oh, not at all. I am saying that humans are ultimately unnecessary to the Culture, and are greatly weaker than it's intelligences. If, on a whim, the Minds decide that humans are no longer necessary, they would cease to be. At least in 40k, for all of the hardships humanity faces, they stand a chance of survival on their own.

Of course, my view only works when you hold humanity's survival as the end goal. If you look at the ends as pursuit of pleasure, then I guess Culture beats it.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Thing is, the Minds would never do that.

While they have free will and such, they do have certain pre-inclined cultural values (small c culture) built in due to how AI work. There's one mind that treated the organics onboard of it poorly, which was exiled and had its chosen name deleted; now, it is the Meat!@#$er (sans characters).

Refusal of someone's chosen name is a unique insult in the Culture- so bad that most Minds would commit suicide from shame.

[Juhn]

Originally Posted by Water_Bear

The Orks, well the Orks are just weird and Chaos doesn't really bother them.

Of course the chaos gods don't bother the orks. The orks have their own gods, who are orders of magnitude more powerful than the chaos gods (since there are vastly more orks than humans in the galaxy, and every Ork who doesn't act sufficiently Orky (which, IIRC, includes proper veneration of Gork and Mork), is exterminated).

Hell, they regularly kill each other over which of their two gods is which.

At least, this is how I've come to understand things.

[Aotrs Commander]

Originally Posted by Luzahn

Oh, not at all.

Fair enough. I have heard people espouse that theory in apparent genuine seriousness before, however. Which I find a bit disturbing. (As it would seem to suggest they have either not known real suffering, or have and want everyone else to be as miserable as they have been.)

Originally Posted by Luzahn

I am saying that humans are ultimately unnecessary to the Culture, and are greatly weaker than it's intelligences. If, on a whim, the Minds decide that humans are no longer necessary, they would cease to be. At least in 40k, for all of the hardships humanity faces, they stand a chance of survival on their own.

Of course, my view only works when you hold humanity's survival as the end goal. If you look at the ends as pursuit of pleasure, then I guess Culture beats it.

The chances of that are significantly less though, than humans deciding the don't need pets. The Minds are not supposed to be robot overlords, of the type that is horribly overdone in scifi (as if being made of flesh is somehow inherently superior that all technologicals are inherently Evil...) The point of them is, fromw hat I've seen, they ARE that good and compassionate, and they do genuinely want everyone to be content and happy. Not for any ulterior motive, not because they gets their kicks from being in charge, they do it because they really do CARE. Like a mother for her children, or a teacher for their students sort of care.



I find it a bit depressing that modern society is so cynical now that there are people out there who don't seem to be able to get their head around the idea of a genuinely compassionate, goodly being without it being a front for some sort of agenda. Not necessarily saying you specifically, Luzahn; but I've seen this sort of thing before, with Superman, or the Federation; one of the less-welcome early memes in the My Little Pony fandom was that Princess Celestia, their country's immortal ruler, was secretly some kind diabolical tyrant, ruling the land with a well-hidden iron hoof. It's so sad that the world has reached a place where people don't seem to be able to believe in anyone being better than them, that everything has to be imperfect and flawed - and without that, without hope that there is a better way, how will society ever improve? If humanity insists it is perfect they way it is now, it can never get any better.

On the other hand, it will make my job, once the eventual time comes that I'm allowed to conquer and/or raze the world much easier, as there is increasingly less reason for me to bother with the former, so there's that.

[Luzahn]

Now, do the Minds have Asimovian laws to their decision-making? Or is it entirely based on their preferences?

[Parra]

I wonder about the Orks and the Culture.

The Culture would of course decimate the Orks in a straight up fight and probably restrict them to some localised area of the Galaxy.

However.

Ork's, make things work by enough of them believing they do. So I wonder if the Ork's were on the receiving end of come Culture military hardware, would the Ork's start developing their own versions of these weapons powered by the Orky group mind?

edit:

Originally Posted by Luzahn

Now, do the Minds have Asimovian laws to their decision-making? Or is it entirely based on their preferences?

No they dont have those Laws. Minds are not Artificial Intelligence, they are Actual Intelligence.

The theory postulated in one of the books was that every civilisation's AI's learn their behaviour from their creators.
At some point in the far distant past the ancestors of the Minds were regular AI and got their programming from their creators.
As they grew in sophistication, they keep those basic morals. In the same way as a parent teaches a child.
Eventually they stopped being AI and started being Actually Intelligent and creating newer generations of Minds themselves. Again continuing the Parent -> child teaching of Morals.

Since the original creators of the ancestral Minds were the same ancestors of the pan-human side of the Culture, they all broadly have the same Morals

[Shadow of the Sun]

Originally Posted by Luzahn

Now, do the Minds have Asimovian laws to their decision-making? Or is it entirely based on their preferences?

No, they don't have Asimovian laws. Which, personally, I think would be a horrible thing to do to any intelligent being. It'd be like giving someone a list of commands and putting a bomb collar on them set to go off if they don't follow the commands.

The whole "KILLER ROBOT OVERLORD!" thing is kind of overstated. If I was a superintelligent space-ship based AI, why would I want to kill them? I can handle their every whim with one-fifteen trillionth of my brain power.

And, really, the Minds seem to be quite affectionate to the people who live with them- see the Xenophobe in Use of Weapons.

[Brother Oni]

Agreed. I think the humans aboard a Mind ship occupy a position somewhere between honoured passenger, pets and pests.

There's a great bit in Excession when the Mind is investigating the eponymous excession (a completely unidentified and unknown anomaly) and launches the first exploratory probe, only to find its humans have festooned it with all sorts of hopeful and welcoming messages and the Mind does its equivalent of a face-palm.

[comicshorse]

Originally Posted by Luzahn

At least in 40k, for all of the hardships humanity faces, they stand a chance of survival on their own.

Of course, my view only works when you hold humanity's survival as the end goal. If you look at the ends as pursuit of pleasure, then I guess Culture beats it.

But Humanity doesn't,without the GE and Space Marines were toast

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by comicshorse

But Humanity doesn't,without the GE and Space Marines were toast

That depends on if you consider them to be part of 'humanity' collectively - they are not even slightly human individually, but having them as a weapon/tool is as much a human asset as having guns is in terms of being prepared to face the rest of the universe.

[comicshorse]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

That depends on if you consider them to be part of 'humanity' collectively - they are not even slightly human individually, but having them as a weapon/tool is as much a human asset as having guns is in terms of being prepared to face the rest of the universe.

True, but I always got the feeling that when it came to being a weapon/tool. Its Humanity who are their tool not the other way round

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by comicshorse

True, but I always got the feeling that when it came to being a weapon/tool. Its Humanity who are their tool not the other way round

Possibly humanity is a tool of the Emperor, but the Astartes are unquestionably a weapon serving humanity in the form of the Imperium, not the other way round.

[comicshorse]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Possibly humanity is a tool of the Emperor, but the Astartes are unquestionably a weapon serving humanity in the form of the Imperium, not the other way round.

Well again I'm only going on the WH40K novels I've read but in those many of the Space Marines are quite clear in the contempt in which they hold 'mortals' and are quite happy to expand thousands of Gaurdsman or enslave entire populations in appalling conditions to provide support and material for themselves.

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by comicshorse

Well again I'm only going on the WH40K novels I've read but in those many of the Space Marines are quite clear in the contempt in which they hold 'mortals' and are quite happy to expand thousands of Gaurdsman or enslave entire populations in appalling conditions to provide support and material for themselves.

I dunno which novels you've been reading then...it's quite common for Marines to consider themselves superior to mortal humans, but they are solidly loyal to Humanity as as whole in the form of the Imperium of Man (not the Imperium of Superman or Imperium of Space Marines) - which would include not needlessly sacrificing Imperial resources like Guardsmen, and I honestly can't think of any non-Chaos chapter that directly enslaves planetary populations - at worst, they find feral/primitive cultures and deliberately choose not to uplift them, as part of keeping a recruit supply.

[comicshorse]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

I dunno which novels you've been reading then...it's quite common for Marines to consider themselves superior to mortal humans, but they are solidly loyal to Humanity as as whole in the form of the Imperium of Man (not the Imperium of Superman or Imperium of Space Marines) - which would include not needlessly sacrificing Imperial resources like Guardsmen, and I honestly can't think of any non-Chaos chapter that directly enslaves planetary populations - at worst, they find feral/primitive cultures and deliberately choose not to uplift them, as part of keeping a recruit supply.

Well to take from just the last book I read, in 'The Primarchs' a member of the Iron Hands is informed by a Gaurd medic that if they follow the Iron Hands orders and force march on (after weeks of force marching through the desert) hundreds of the Gaurd wounded and weak will die.
The Marine replies : "Yes, they will "
And he turns out to be one of the more respectful to the Guard of the Iron Hands

[The Glyphstone]

Primarchs, and the rest of the Heresy-era novels, are set before/during/ just after the Horus Heresy; the relationship between different factions of the Imperium was very different then, particularly between Guard and Marines.

Comparatively, the Ultramarines in the present day rule over their own subsector, and life there for ordinary humans is pretty good by anyone's standards, let alone by 40K standards. The Ultrasmurfs see themselves as honored protectors of humanity - maybe not servants, but not overlords either.

[Tiki Snakes]

As I understand it, most marine chapters basically have baggage of some kind.
If I'm not mistaken, the Iron Hands have Baggage with a very capital letter.

It wouldn't necessarily be that they don't respect the guard. It's the whole The Flesh Is Weak thing. They don't respect normal humans. They don't respect normal marines. They don't respect their own body-parts that they haven't gotten round to replacing yet. Not that there are any Iron Hands that have gone fully machine or anything, honest guv.

But even then, I'm assuming the forced march was in aid of some military goal? All they're saying is that the suffering of those particular guard weak enough not to make it is unimportant besides acheiving their goal, which I'm assuming is in the interests of the Imperium in general, rather than say their own amusement or profit.
Even the Cyborg nutjobs with a poor sense of empathy even by Marine standards are, basically, doing it for Humanity. Even if they do believe that the only way humanity can survive and compete is to chop all the meaty-bits off and replace them with hardware.

[The Glyphstone]

That's also a good point - most Marines are psychologically warped to some degree, and the Iron Hands are pretty high up on the scale.

[comicshorse]

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

But even then, I'm assuming the forced march was in aid of some military goal? All they're saying is that the suffering of those particular guard weak enough not to make it is unimportant besides acheiving their goal, which I'm assuming is in the interests of the Imperium in general, rather than say their own amusement or profit.

It was but mainly it was in aid of the Iron Hands achieving the objective before the other Chapters assigned to that world so their Primarch could lord it over his brothers

I accept the Iron Hands have severe baggage but I can't see several other Chapters being forgiving of the weakness of humanity

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, the Primarchs were not nice people, and didn't for the most part get along with each other. When giants fight, the ants are going to get stomped on no matter how much the giants care about their ants.

[comicshorse]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Yeah, the Primarchs were not nice people, and didn't for the most part get along with each other. When giants fight, the ants are going to get stomped on no matter how much the giants care about their ants.

Thats not giving me any happier feelings about humanity's place in the scheme of things

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by comicshorse

Thats not giving me any happier feelings about humanity's place in the scheme of things

It pretty accurately shows what the relationship was like during the pre-Heresy era, though. The Primarchs and their Legions were entities unto themselves - fully self-sufficient armies with supply lines, transport, orbital and armored support, everything they need, as well as being dozens or hundreds of times larger than the current Chapters are in size. The Guard were completely inferior and expendable. In the 'modern era', Chapters are smaller and less self-sufficient, and they've had ten thousand years of being indoctrinated that they are servants and guardians of the Imperium, instead of living gods among men.

You should read books like the Ultramarines omnibus, featuring Uriel Ventris The Worst Ultramarine Ever or the Space Wolf saga with Wolf Lord Ragnar. They're much less pessimistic with regards to the Marine/Man relationship, when it intrudes on the narrative at all.

[comicshorse]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

It pretty accurately shows what the relationship was like during the pre-Heresy era, though. The Primarchs and their Legions were entities unto themselves - fully self-sufficient armies with supply lines, transport, orbital and armored support, everything they need, as well as being dozens or hundreds of times larger than the current Chapters are in size. The Guard were completely inferior and expendable. In the 'modern era', Chapters are smaller and less self-sufficient, and they've had ten thousand years of being indoctrinated that they are servants and guardians of the Imperium, instead of living gods among men.

You should read books like the Ultramarines omnibus, featuring Uriel Ventris The Worst Ultramarine Ever or the Space Wolf saga with Wolf Lord Ragnar. They're much less pessimistic with regards to the Marine/Man relationship, when it intrudes on the narrative at all.

I've read the Space Wolf ones way back when though I quite like the sound of 'the worst Ultramatine ever', must try them

[The Glyphstone]

Well, I call him that because he's capable of and prone to...creatively interpreting the Codex Astartes when the situation calls for it - i.e., adaptable and capable of battlefield improvisation, when the Ultramarine stereotype is rigid and absolutely inflexible adherence to the instructions as as laid down in the Codex Astartes.

[Tiki Snakes]

Drow are a race of Chaotic Good rebels, fighting to protect a world that hates and fears them.

Ultramarines are a chapter entirely consisting of rogues and mavericks who value initiative over rigid adherance to the rules and who will do whatever it takes to get the job done.
Besides, any True Ultramarine will tell you, they're really more like Guidelines.

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

Drow are a race of Chaotic Good rebels, fighting to protect a world that hates and fears them.

Ultramarines are a chapter entirely consisting of rogues and mavericks who value initiative over rigid adherance to the rules and who will do whatever it takes to get the job done.
Besides, any True Ultramarine will tell you, they're really more like Guidelines.

Heresy!

[jseah]

Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter

This is not the world of WH40K. Every creature with a soul risks attracting the attention of inhuman (yet deeply human) beings every time they give in to one of their emotions; the only people as depraved as the Culture in the history of the universe had their souls eaten or live in a hidden city sacrificing the souls of innocents to protect their own. The Warp is an uncontrollable and hungry entity that is perilous to traverse and swarms with beings beyond mortal comprehension. The only defense against this reality is iron self-control or the sacrifice of others or both. Science cannot save you and the Now is only a step on the road to Eternity.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...1&postcount=89

You do realize that the term we use for "soul" means very little when you are at Culture level tech?
If you saw my Box idea in the part 2 report, how would you imagine "soul" would apply?

The main problem with a WH40K 'soul' is that any way you define it, the Culture will inevitably accidentally destroy the souls of its citizens simply by doing the usual things.
Body replacement -> bam, instant warp null?

In the case of a 'restore from backup', you cannot argue that the 'soul' transfers to the restored person since Minds can easily restore from backup *without* getting rid of the original guy... who gets the 'soul'? Examining this problem by continuity indicates that the original guy's soul remains with him. And of course if you get rid of the original guy, his soul dies with him.
And in any case, in the Chaos contamination reset example I gave, the contaminated citizen was destroyed and so his soul is gone. Who is the restored backup then?

They understand and can manipulate sentience into any form they like. Build a perfectly normal human minus... say, grief. Or motivation. Or obsession. Or has strange intuitions on logic. (what do you mean Not True is False?!) Or a three laws compliant human.

>.>

[Soras Teva Gee]

Originally Posted by jseah

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...1&postcount=89

You do realize that the term we use for "soul" means very little when you are at Culture level tech?
If you saw my Box idea in the part 2 report, how would you imagine "soul" would apply?

The main problem with a WH40K 'soul' is that any way you define it, the Culture will inevitably accidentally destroy the souls of its citizens simply by doing the usual things.
Body replacement -> bam, instant warp null?

In the case of a 'restore from backup', you cannot argue that the 'soul' transfers to the restored person since Minds can easily restore from backup *without* getting rid of the original guy... who gets the 'soul'? Examining this problem by continuity indicates that the original guy's soul remains with him. And of course if you get rid of the original guy, his soul dies with him.
And in any case, in the Chaos contamination reset example I gave, the contaminated citizen was destroyed and so his soul is gone. Who is the restored backup then?

They understand and can manipulate sentience into any form they like. Build a perfectly normal human minus... say, grief. Or motivation. Or obsession. Or has strange intuitions on logic. (what do you mean Not True is False?!) Or a three laws compliant human.

>.>

While I can't speak for if 40k bears out this interpretation but one could argue that "soul" in any context the Warp would care about is created by the mind/body here. Or otherwise that creating a sentient being by any means simply gives them a "soul" by virtue of their nature not their origin. Ergo clone someone and the clone has just as much a "soul" as the original as they are technically separate or whatever.