Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)

[Traab]

Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth

Actually, that does bring up an interesting question - by the time Wings of Liberty occurs, Kerrigan has pulled out of Tarsonis entirely and it's become a Dominion world. Why did she leave? Was it a lack of resources, or was she just consolidating her forces?

At the end of brood wars, she had pulled back her forces to defend against the ued, protoss, and dominion forces attacking char. She won, but I dont think she was in a position to go retake all the worlds right away at that point. I may be misremembering it though. Also, wasnt tarsnois only hit in the first place because of mengsk using that psi emitter? The zerg may have just left after capturing kerrigan.

[Lord_Gareth]

Another interesting question - Ork commanders have a significant effect on their forces, but to what extent do Broods affect the Swarm's tactics? Like, would this scenario change significantly if we said that the Tiamat Brood held Tarsonis, or the Jormungandr?

[Traab]

Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth

Another interesting question - Ork commanders have a significant effect on their forces, but to what extent do Broods affect the Swarm's tactics? Like, would this scenario change significantly if we said that the Tiamat Brood held Tarsonis, or the Jormungandr?

It would effect it alot. Each brood is controlled pretty much completely by a different cerebrate. Or at least they were. Each has a different personality, each uses different strategies. Some would have a more defensive battle plan, letting the orks rush to their doom while he holds back and lets them shatter on his spike colonies and such where he holds the advantage, until they are weakened enough for a counter attack. Others would go for massive build up followed by unending swarm of attacks. Just keep marching over their own zerg carcasses slowly closing in until they can tear the orks apart. Others might show a more tactical mindset, and even try out that creep method I mentioned.

[Lord_Gareth]

Alright, so I think we've reached a stage where we need to start modifying this. Who wants to help create a list of broods and a list of Ork generals/Waaaagh!s so we can get into some meaty detail here?

[Kris Strife]

Originally Posted by Fan

Again, game mechanics wise, units are produced insanely fast. It takes days to weeks for a new brood to hatch in fluff though, and I think we're digressing to fluff because otherwise Orks can produce entire squads of Boyz, Mega Armored Nobz, and vehicles from similar structures with a little bit of resources, and can literally produce infinite boys at no cost given time to build up.

In the story about how banelings were created, weren't the defenders facing new, slightly different zergling swarms on a daily basis?

[The Glyphstone]

It'd be easier to make a list of the various Klans and assume a Warboss from that Klan, since there aren't very many named Ork generals that we know things about - Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka starts and ends the list for the most part.

[Lord_Gareth]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

It'd be easier to make a list of the various Klans and assume a Warboss from that Klan, since there aren't very many named Ork generals that we know things about - Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka starts and ends the list for the most part.

Then would you do the honors, Mr. Glyphstone?

[hamishspence]

Goffs: "'Hard gitz. Very melee-orientated."
Blood Axes: "Sneaky gitz. Make much use of camouflage."
Bad Moons: "Rich gitz. Make heavy use of gunz."
Death Skulls: "Thievin' gitz. Very good at looting."
Snakebites: "Primitive gitz. Make much use of boars & squigs."

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by hamishspence

Goffs: "'Hard gitz. Very melee-orientated."
Blood Axes: "Sneaky gitz. Make much use of camouflage."
Bad Moons: "Rich gitz. Make heavy use of gunz."
Death Skulls: "Thievin' gitz. Very good at looting."
Snakebites: "Primitive gitz. Make much use of boars & squigs."

You forgot Evil Sunz. "Speedy gitz. Love trukks and bikes and things what go fasta even before ya paintz 'em red."

[hamishspence]

Good point.

[Fan]

I'd give it to each on the following basis:

Goffs: Provided they bring mega armored nobz, storm boyz, and Biggah Nobz with Power Klawz you got a sweep in the melee department, I couldn't seen even an Ultralisk standing up to some Mega Armored Nobz. Those things rip apart tanks. That, and Ghazghkull.

Bad Moonz: Better vehicle equipment, lead by some of the most devious Warbosses available to Orks, they come with plenty of Flash Gitz, and Nobs in their usual WAAAAAGH! setup, and bring the second largest amount of vehicle to the field.

Blood Axes: Probably done for here, unless said infiltration would allow them to hit Kerrigan or some such directly with some Kroozer firepower.

Death Skullz: I say this is a win for them, because the amount of vehicles to loot on Tarsonis is simply ridiculous, three whole fleets one of which was protoss downed on this planet.

Snakebites: Not even a contest. Too stupid even by Ork standards.

Evil Sunz: Vehicles. Vehicles. Vehicles. They win for the same reason Death Skullz do.

[Brother Oni]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

It'd be easier to make a list of the various Klans and assume a Warboss from that Klan, since there aren't very many named Ork generals that we know things about - Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka starts and ends the list for the most part.

Well there's Gorkutz 'Ead 'Unter from DoW, and Kaptin Bluddflagg from DoW2 (although he was a Freebooter rather than a Warboss).

We don't talk about Grimskull.

[Lord_Gareth]

Alright, flip side of this - what Broods does the Swarm have available at this time, and how do their tactics and strategies work? IIRC the Jormungund Brood was put down during the course of the Brood Wars, as were two others that had been suckered in by the new Overmind. So who's left, and who's new?

[The Glyphstone]

It's only the Death Skullz that frequently field large numbers of Looted vehicles, though - stealin' stuff is their shtick, so it's not entirely fair to pass that on to the others.

The Evil Sunz would loot like crazy, but it'd be in-character for them to ignore the Siege Tanks entirely because the Vultures are fasta - they're more like the Goffs in that they prefer melee, but use transports+bikes to close to fightin' range quickly rather than just be tuff enough to take the hits as they close.

Bad Moonz would do some lootin', but they're the classically 'rich' Ork Klan and would more likely to end up bringing looted Imperial vehicles with them rather than scavenging once they arrived. Note that this still means they win, it's just that the lootables on Tarsonis aren't relevant for such.


So, against a generic Zerg defensive force, without personalizing for Brood: Goffs, Death Skullz, and Bad Moonz = win.
Snakebites and Blood Axes = lose.
Evil Sunz = Iffy. They don't play the mechanized warfare game like BM or DS do, things with wheels are primarily valued as transports, so I'd put them as 'likely, but not guaranteed'.

[Fan]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

It's only the Death Skullz that frequently field large numbers of Looted vehicles, though - stealin' stuff is their shtick, so it's not entirely fair to pass that on to the others.

The Evil Sunz would loot like crazy, but it'd be in-character for them to ignore the Siege Tanks entirely because the Vultures are fasta - they're more like the Goffs in that they prefer melee, but use transports+bikes to close to fightin' range quickly rather than just be tuff enough to take the hits as they close.

Bad Moonz would do some lootin', but they're the classically 'rich' Ork Klan and would more likely to end up bringing looted Imperial vehicles with them rather than scavenging once they arrived. Note that this still means they win, it's just that the lootables on Tarsonis aren't relevant for such.


So, against a generic Zerg defensive force, without personalizing for Brood: Goffs, Death Skullz, and Bad Moonz = win.
Snakebites and Blood Axes = lose.
Evil Sunz = Iffy. They don't play the mechanized warfare game like BM or DS do, things with wheels are primarily valued as transports, so I'd put them as 'likely, but not guaranteed'.

From what I remember, the Evil Sunz field the most air of any of the Orks.

So we could probably count on Wraiths, Dropships, and Valkryies being employed, along with Protoss Scouts and Corsairs.

[The Glyphstone]

Maybe initially. But considering how well looted Imperial vehicles 'function', how long do you honestly expect the Orks to be keeping looted Protoss ships airborne at anything approaching their original level of functionality? Cause that's something else to consider...sure, the Orks can loot vehicles. They can loot lots of vehicles. But those vehicles are only available to be looted because the Zerg killed them once, and Lootin' makes the recovered salvage worse, not better - there's nothing stopping the Zerg from just killing them again.

Evil Sunz would love the heck out of Trukks What FlyDropships, though they'd be more likely to 'disembark' their passengers at ramming speed.

[Traab]

I wonder how they would react to dropships that heal you? I mean yeah they have no real sense of self preservation, but the fact that they can shoot off more dakka for longer periods of time with a dropship that heals them after dropping them in the middle of the fight, well, thats gotta be all sorts of awesome.

[shadow_archmagi]

Originally Posted by Traab

I wonder how they would react to dropships that heal you? I mean yeah they have no real sense of self preservation, but the fact that they can shoot off more dakka for longer periods of time with a dropship that heals them after dropping them in the middle of the fight, well, thats gotta be all sorts of awesome.

Oh, yeah. The Orks already tolerate Ork Mad Doks, who practice medicine with a chainsaw. I'm sure they'd love a bits-replacer for when they get stuck in.

Plus the healing laser is green.

[boj0]

I need to pop into Media Discussions more often...I miss all the fun stuff

The big thing about what Orks have for aerial support (yes, they do have their own fliers) is that they are obscenely fast, able to move over 36" on the tabletop no sweat. Also, they have some of the best anti-infantry weapons available to Orks.
A squadron of Burna Bombas would likely wipe out swaths of lesser Zerg during a run. While Dakkajets just are just that: jets with large amounts of dakka (also one of the more accurate shooty units); a Fighta Ace would also be able to hold their own against most Zerg air units.

For more on Ork air power, check out Deff Skawdron, hilariously brutal.

[The Glyphstone]

No, it's brutally hilarious.


The point made earlier is that while Ork air power is good, it'd range from unlikely to impossible that they could hold the air and use it. Zerg have a fantastic assortment of anti-air and air denial weapons, not the least of which are Scourges - I'd definitely wager the Zerg can grow new Scourges faster than the Orks can build new Fighta-Bommas, even at an unbalanced exchange rate. Between Scouges, Mutalisks, Devourers, Hydralisks, and Spore Crawlers/Colonies - Zerg are very likely to have air superiority, at best it'll be a consistent mutual stalemate locking air power out of the fight entirely.

[hamishspence]

Theres Fightas, Fighta-Bommers, Bommers (which come in three variants, one of which is the fighta-style Dakkajet) and there's super-heavy Bommers for the Apocalypse game, in one of the later splatbooks.

So quite a wide range.

There's also the Landa in the Epic game- like an oversized dropship with lots of guns.

Deff Skwadron is very cool- though the figure it gives for the weight of a fighta-bommer is much heavier than that the later books give. It's heavier than the super-heavies, in fact.

[BRC]

Well, the setting is very much playing into the Ork's favor. Tarsonis used to be the center of the Confederacy. IIRC, most of the planet is covered in a ruined city. Which means lots and lots of scrap for the Orks to use. On a planet like Tarsonis, the Mek Boyz should have no trouble building vehicles and weapons.
Let us look at the Terran SC1 Units, assuming there is plenty of scrap from those left around Tarsonis. an Orkish Mek can turn a pile of scrap and a few 2x4's into a tank. They would have no trouble with things like Siege Tanks and Goliaths.

And Gork help the Zerg if they find a supply of Firebat weapons.


And, if any of the old buildings still have their jump jets intact.

"eh, Lookatdis! Dis building can Fly!"
"But Boss, if dis buildin can fly, why didn't da 'umies put no gunz on it!"
"'Cause Deyz 'umies! Dey is Stupid! We is Orks! We know 'wat ta do with this!"


And the next thing you know, there is a fleet of flying buildings each stuffed full of Orks and weapons.
One especially clever Mek rigs them all up with loudspeakers, set to play "Ride of the Valkyrines"

[Traab]

Originally Posted by BRC

Well, the setting is very much playing into the Ork's favor. Tarsonis used to be the center of the Confederacy. IIRC, most of the planet is covered in a ruined city. Which means lots and lots of scrap for the Orks to use. On a planet like Tarsonis, the Mek Boyz should have no trouble building vehicles and weapons.
Let us look at the Terran SC1 Units, assuming there is plenty of scrap from those left around Tarsonis. an Orkish Mek can turn a pile of scrap and a few 2x4's into a tank. They would have no trouble with things like Siege Tanks and Goliaths.

And Gork help the Zerg if they find a supply of Firebat weapons.


And, if any of the old buildings still have their jump jets intact.

"eh, Lookatdis! Dis building can Fly!"
"But Boss, if dis buildin can fly, why didn't da 'umies put no gunz on it!"
"'Cause Deyz 'umies! Dey is Stupid! We is Orks! We know 'wat ta do with this!"


And the next thing you know, there is a fleet of flying buildings each stuffed full of Orks and weapons.
One especially clever Mek rigs them all up with loudspeakers, set to play "Ride of the Valkyrines"

Something you should keep in mind is, if this is a tarsonis controlled by the zerg, they have had about 3-4 years, depending on how close it is to sons of liberty, to completely engulf the planet and all of its resources in creep. Those buildings and derelict mechs have all been blown up by the zerg, and the wreckage has been rusting and rotting for 3-4 years. Im not saying the orks cant do anything with it, im just saying that it wont be some orkish paradise since they arent really getting anything special. Just a lot of raw and crappy material. They wont be stumbling across a vast airfield of valkieries with flat tires and otherwise in pristine condition, or seige tanks that need new treads and a bit of chrome polish in other words.

[Fan]

To put it into perspective, the Imperial Guard has scorched the inner workings out of a Lemann Russ batallion that had fallen in combat to the Orks, removing the treads, taking out the engine, and setting the thing on fire after puncturing the fuel container.

The Orks looted them, and had them up in time for the next battle later in the day.

[The Glyphstone]

That could just mean they took the gutted shells and stuffed them full of Trukk bits while fixing up the turret, though - everything we're told about Looted vehicles is that they are crude, ramshackle, and occasionally as dangerous to their crew and surrounding infantry as they are to the enemy...exactly how the Orks like it. Even WAAAAUGH power can't create parts out of thin air, only make parts they have work better/longer than they should. And there's still what I mentioned before, that if the Zerg killed the vehicles once when they were in pristine condition, they can easily do it again when they're salvaged and crewed by Orks.

[Traab]

I agree with glyph on that. Clearly everything the orks could repair already lost to the zerg once. If the terrans couldnt win with those weapons, when they were at their peak condition and crewed by people who knew exactly how best to use them, what hope do orks with half assed copies have?

[Coidzor]

Without them having seen a working siege tank in action, there's some question as to what they'd produce from the burnt out shell and/or wreckage of a siege tank, isn't there?

[byaku rai]

>.>
<.<

... Zerg assimilate Orks.

We now have Zorks.

Whether or not this is likely, it is bloody awesome.

[Fan]

Originally Posted by Traab

I agree with glyph on that. Clearly everything the orks could repair already lost to the zerg once. If the terrans couldnt win with those weapons, when they were at their peak condition and crewed by people who knew exactly how best to use them, what hope do orks with half assed copies have?

Because they're fielding all 3 armies that thought they could win at once's vehicle arsenal.

Also looted vehicles also have traditionally more fire power than their non looted equivalents, and ALSO work fine in most instances of fluff.

[Forum Explorer]

Originally Posted by Traab

I agree with glyph on that. Clearly everything the orks could repair already lost to the zerg once. If the terrans couldnt win with those weapons, when they were at their peak condition and crewed by people who knew exactly how best to use them, what hope do orks with half assed copies have?

Because they weren't being piloted by Orks

More seriously it's for replacement parts and ammo. It just means the Orks will expect vehicle replacements as the war continues. Similarly the Orks won't need to worry about running out of ammo.

Since the Ork infantry is already better then most of the zerg infantry and they can keep their vehicle section supplied I think they've got this.