LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

[supernerd]

Originally Posted by Arachu

*More hugs* I can sympathize, sort of. >.>


~Bianca

*Hugs for you too* add on the fact that I have no interest in a "legitimate profession" and the fact that I don't let my family close to me so they can't spread their disapproval over everything I hold dear, and you get drama.

[SiuiS]

Originally Posted by Lix Lorn

The places which I give out for free? xD

Shhhhhhh!

Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost

Well this is certainly interesting.

Hot darn!
That's... Glee!

Originally Posted by Selpharia

So I went through the university therapist's evaluation period, and she gave me a referral to see a specialist counselor in the area. But this new counselor is a fully transitioned FtM, and I'm terrified that I'll tell him my story and everything, and he'll just say: "That's not really dysphoria, you're just a complete lunatic who's such a failure as a male that you're trying to pretend to need to be female." I know it's irrational, but I just keep turning the thought over in my mind along with every little way in which my story is different than the "standard model" I'm sure it won't really be like that, but I'm still so nervous, especially since he'll be the first transitioned person I have ever met in real life.

You'll be fine, luv

Originally Posted by C'nor

PairO'Dice Lost:

I think this might be relevant...

Oh goodness~
Thank you for that.

Originally Posted by Triscuitable

This is Gramerica, dammit! In Gramerica we speak with dignity and proper punctuation, with no lazy "like"s or "you know"s strewn about!

Pffffffhahahahahahahahahaaaaaa!

Originally Posted by supernerd

*Hugs for you too* add on the fact that I have no interest in a "legitimate profession" and the fact that I don't let my family close to me so they can't spread their disapproval over everything I hold dear, and you get drama.

Define legitimate? So long as you aren't a career criminal or a mooching housewife you've got a legitimate career. I mean, so long as you have a career at all.

[CheesePirate]

Originally Posted by Astrella

Yeah... I just wish that not practically every story involving a trans woman had to end badly. ._.

I'm glad Tab clarified and apologized though. (Also I'm not saying that trans women don't do bad stuff or are always good people, I'm just sad that the other three stories had decent endings and I'm really not seeing how this will end well right now. :/ )

That's how I feel too. In most if not all categories of people, you'll find some who do bad things. But if there are only two characters in a story of a certain minority, many readers belonging to that minority will identify with them, and even though the characters are individuals and not meant to represent a whole group of people they will still be seen by many as representatives of their respective minorities, especially to people who don't know any people of that minority group personally. I don't expect minority characters to be flawless in their behaviour, but to have both transgendered characters say and do such truly horrendous things to other people as they did in the latest story is naturally upsetting to a lot of people, including me. What Charlie did is unacceptable (no details because of triggers), and what Tom said to Jamie is deeply upsetting and not something I would ever expect to hear from someone identifying as transgendered.

Edit: this said everything I wanted to say so much better than I could.

[Lord Raziere]

Originally Posted by C'nor

PairO'Dice Lost:

I think this might be relevant...

I once wrote something that is the anti-thesis of this…lets see if I can dig it up..

Conan the Grammarian

Spoiler

They are freaking annoying
They are like a big troll
but not as ugly and loud
When they speak, they still make my eyes roll

They are Conan the Grammarian
Cleaving ordinary conversation
with their axes of grammar-ation
They pillage the village of words
and punctuate them with spears

Sure, the guys who like to correct peoples spelling
are pretty cool
I can't understand a thing the average internet idiot says
in such a cesspool.

But isn't the grammar thing going a little too far?
trying to fit all the words in the world
into a little correct jar?

I'm just really tired of barbarian pedantry
I'd just like all my little words flying
with my nouns, verbs, and prepositions soaring free.
Why chain them all up
in some weird arcane order for everyone to see?

I don't understand you Conan the Grammarian
I like my words free and flowing
Maybe I'm just a tasteless barbarian
Thats all now, I gotta get going.

[Musashi]

I for one love they/their/them, and do even more so given there's no such alternative in my first language! (Well, technically, there's "ça", which is basically "it", which is absolutely terrible when you're talking about a person. And the default pronoun in case of doubt for everything is masculine, which some may find problematic.
Something else that's problematic: my abuse of italics. But that is for another day.)


Next week, BF and I are going back to Belgium. Him for a short, new trip to the hospital (nothing serious at all), and I because I was selected to be an assessor for election day. I hope our schedule will allow us to visit my aunt (who's bi, soon going to marry her future wife, and very eager to meet BF). Anyway, we're going to get some well-deserved few days away from, respectively, frustrating studies and frustrating job research.

[supernerd]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Define legitimate? So long as you aren't a career criminal or a mooching housewife you've got a legitimate career. I mean, so long as you have a career at all.

I feel pressured to be in a more "normal" job like some sort of scientist or doctor or something when all I can see myself wanting to do for more than five years in any given field are writing and musical theatre. My mother no doubt told my father that I was looking for creative writing majors when me and her came back from a college fair. Yet when he asked me what I wanted, I did what I usually did and clammed up, saying I didn't know, so that I would not be able to to hear him disapprove of it. He might be okay with it, but
I'm not sure. So when I said I didn't know, he suggested to be some science researcher type person. When I said that it would be boring after five or so years and I didn't want to be bored with my existence, he replied, "but you'd be good at it." Just because I might do well in a career doesn't mean I feel any urge to choose it. I want to do something I love, not just something occasionally interesting.

[KenderWizard]

Whenever the thread gets interrupted I think we all get really pent up and then gush when it comes back because it always moves so fast after a hiatus!

Originally Posted by Selpharia

So I went through the university therapist's evaluation period, and she gave me a referral to see a specialist counselor in the area. But this new counselor is a fully transitioned FtM, and I'm terrified that I'll tell him my story and everything, and he'll just say: "That's not really dysphoria, you're just a complete lunatic who's such a failure as a male that you're trying to pretend to need to be female." I know it's irrational, but I just keep turning the thought over in my mind along with every little way in which my story is different than the "standard model" I'm sure it won't really be like that, but I'm still so nervous, especially since he'll be the first transitioned person I have ever met in real life.

Getting that referral is great news for you! I can totally understand how you must be really nervous about this, but if there's anyone who should be able to both understand and help you, it's this guy. I would be super-anxious too, but there's no way a counsellor would be so harsh, even if you did have a dubious story, which you don't. Good luck!

Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost

Speaking as someone who's enough of a grammar Nazi to qualify for membership in the grammar SS, the singular they isn't something that should piss her off grammatically whether or not it's used in relation to trans* issues/people. It has a long and distinguished history in English, and is even considered to be correct by the Oxford English Dictionary, and you can't really disagree with the OED and call yourself a proper grammarian.

I was going to say this too! But then, I'm thinking, this girl got really defensive really quickly about something that's not actually much of a big deal. In my experience, people who go for the line "Well, I should just stop talking since everyone's taking this personally" have been being frustrated by something. People usually don't pull that out after only being shut down once. Clearly, if she's saying cissexist stuff she needs to learn more so she can understand where you and others are coming from and check her privilege, but I'd be inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt and maybe just send her some links, saying something like "I feel we're not understanding one another very well right now, you've said a few things to hurt my feelings and I don't think I've successfully explained how. Here's an article/blog/lolcat that I think really gets across what I'm trying to say."

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Define legitimate? So long as you aren't a career criminal or a mooching housewife you've got a legitimate career. I mean, so long as you have a career at all.

I've always felt stay-at-home-parent should be considered a career but it's mostly not.

[Serpentine]

Originally Posted by Lilac_Shade

It seems like every time I post here it's 'cos I have something sad to say, and unfortunately I need to do that one more time.

Spoiler

I have this really close best friend. She's cis, but bi and she's been relatively active in our local queer community. Recently, she's been saying some cissexist stuff, which I called her out on and she apologized for. But, just now, we were talking about pronouns, and she was going on about how annoying "they, them, their" pronouns are because they piss her off grammatically. I explained that as an ally, it's her job to help English evolve into a more gender-inclusive language. She got really passive aggressive and said she'll just stop talking since everyone takes these things so personally. I'm used to getting this kind of stuff from my family and strangers, but I've long considered her a friend and an ally, and recent weeks as well as this incident have culminated to kind of shatter that image. I really have no idea how to respond to this situation. Help?

To be honest, I think you approached this the wrong way. She was talking grammar, and your immediate response is to (from her perspective) turn it into a Thing and what's more to turn it against her by talking about how it's her job to be okay with grammatically awkward things or else she's a bad ally just because she has a problem with a word.
What I think would have been better (and what I'd recommend doing if it comes up again) would be to correspondingly approach it grammatically, and explain that... well, everything Pair O'Dice just said: that the singular they is actually completely correct, and the most elegant way we have of referring to an individual of unknown or ambiguous sex. Then, and only then, you might like to reinforce its usefullness by relating it back to gender issues and why it's handy in those sorts of contexts.

[squidbreath]

Originally Posted by Lord Raziere

Conan the Grammarian

Spoiler

They are freaking annoying
They are like a big troll
but not as ugly and loud
When they speak, they still make my eyes roll

They are Conan the Grammarian
Cleaving ordinary conversation
with their axes of grammar-ation
They pillage the village of words
and punctuate them with spears

Sure, the guys who like to correct peoples spelling
are pretty cool
I can't understand a thing the average internet idiot says
in such a cesspool.

But isn't the grammar thing going a little too far?
trying to fit all the words in the world
into a little correct jar?

I'm just really tired of barbarian pedantry
I'd just like all my little words flying
with my nouns, verbs, and prepositions soaring free.
Why chain them all up
in some weird arcane order for everyone to see?

I don't understand you Conan the Grammarian
I like my words free and flowing
Maybe I'm just a tasteless barbarian
Thats all now, I gotta get going.

When'd you write that? (fantasy genre tie-in <3)

--

I have a request - got any short pieces of queer fiction you'd recommend? I've seen a few on these threads - like that heartbreaking one about the kid who'd chosen to erase their trans-ID with a brain surgery.

[Serpentine]

There may have been one or two in Tamora Pierce's book of short stories, but I'm not sure. There's at least one cross-dresser, but for practical reasons rather than anything gender or sexuality-related, and a bunch of gender-defiance, but that's probably not what you're thinking of.

[Mystic Muse]

Originally Posted by KenderWizard

Really? It seems recent enough to me!

Not recent enough for me to remember the exact reasons.

Oh, hey, I used to be called "Theburningfield". I entirely forgot that.

[noparlpf]

Originally Posted by KenderWizard

I've always felt stay-at-home-parent should be considered a career but it's mostly not.

Ditto. There are a couple of other things involved in that discussion that are probably board-inappropriate-politics-type-stuff, though.

[Lentrax]

Originally Posted by noparlpf

Ditto. There are a couple of other things involved in that discussion that are probably board-inappropriate-politics-type-stuff, though.

Yeah, it is a really rough job. Especially when you have more than one wee kiddo running around, and one of them has a medical condition. Pity my spouse, for she is lonely in our house, with only screaming kids for company.

[Castaras]

Originally Posted by Serpentine

There may have been one or two in Tamora Pierce's book of short stories, but I'm not sure. There's at least one cross-dresser, but for practical reasons rather than anything gender or sexuality-related, and a bunch of gender-defiance, but that's probably not what you're thinking of.

In the Provost's Dogs series there's transgender people mentioned - one of the minor characters is one. They're created thanks to the trickster god. I quote from the wiki: "Kyprioth is sometimes blamed (or credited) for transgender people in Tortallan society. Some transgender people, such as Okha Soyan, believed that Kyprioth touched them in the womb and placed a man or woman's mind into the opposite-gendered body. Others believe that they were blessed by the Trickster, who himself is transgender and blesses them to have company."

(Okha is MtF).

edit: here's the page on Okha. Perfect gender pronouns throughout, as far as I can tell.

[SiuiS]

Originally Posted by KenderWizard

Whenever the thread gets interrupted I think we all get really pent up and then gush when it comes back because it always moves so fast after a hiatus!

Definitely. Though I forgot what I was so pent up about >.>

I've always felt stay-at-home-parent should be considered a career but it's mostly not.

I agree! Unfortunately, I know a few instances of one I the other spouse being little more than an additional child for the other to take care of, and that's what I meant. If you're actually parenting, it's definitely a job. Three, according to the common thread; you end up as a cook, a babysitter and a maid. And with like, none of the salary!

Originally Posted by Serpentine

To be honest, I think you approached this the wrong way. She was talking grammar, and your immediate response is to (from her perspective) turn it into a Thing and what's more to turn it against her by talking about how it's her job to be okay with grammatically awkward things or else she's a bad ally just because she has a problem with a word.
What I think would have been better (and what I'd recommend doing if it comes up again) would be to correspondingly approach it grammatically, and explain that... well, everything Pair O'Dice just said: that the singular they is actually completely correct, and the most elegant way we have of referring to an individual of unknown or ambiguous sex. Then, and only then, you might like to reinforce its usefullness by relating it back to gender issues and why it's handy in those sorts of contexts.

I agree with Serps here, but couldn't figure out how to say it. I am uneasy with the thought of using Ally as a standard by which to judge someone.

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

I agree with Serps here, but couldn't figure out how to say it. I am uneasy with the thought of using Ally as a standard by which to judge someone.

No one is perfectly in lockstep with "the movement" or what have you, mostly because, oftentimes, it's all a huge jumble, after all. That and linguistics and grammar concerns get the best of us in all kinds of different situations at the best of times.

[Selpharia]

Thanks to everyone who offered comfort and hugs for my paranoia. I feel much better now, and I'm looking forward to Friday, even if I'm still a little nervous.

I think Serp has the right of things, and that it's mostly a case of miscommunication and mismatched expectation. I'm sure if you talk calmly and openly about the problem that you had with her phrasing, she'll at least understand where you're coming from. She may not agree or change anything, but hopefully you'll at least get away from the awkwardness this argument has caused.

~Laura

[Astrella]

Originally Posted by CheesePirate

That's how I feel too. In most if not all categories of people, you'll find some who do bad things. But if there are only two characters in a story of a certain minority, many readers belonging to that minority will identify with them, and even though the characters are individuals and not meant to represent a whole group of people they will still be seen by many as representatives of their respective minorities, especially to people who don't know any people of that minority group personally. I don't expect minority characters to be flawless in their behaviour, but to have both transgendered characters say and do such truly horrendous things to other people as they did in the latest story is naturally upsetting to a lot of people, including me. What Charlie did is unacceptable (no details because of triggers), and what Tom said to Jamie is deeply upsetting and not something I would ever expect to hear from someone identifying as transgendered.

Edit: this said everything I wanted to say so much better than I could.

*nods in agreement*

Tab is being responsive to people's comments though, and rewriting the last page and the story line a bit.

Originally Posted by Musashi

Next week, BF and I are going back to Belgium. Him for a short, new trip to the hospital (nothing serious at all), and I because I was selected to be an assessor for election day. I hope our schedule will allow us to visit my aunt (who's bi, soon going to marry her future wife, and very eager to meet BF). Anyway, we're going to get some well-deserved few days away from, respectively, frustrating studies and frustrating job research.

Ooh, neat! Have a great time.
Where in Belgium are you going to if I may ask?

[Socratov]

hey thread! *hugs a few people* *evades some of the glomps and tackles* haha, nearly had me you scoundrels. *sneaks back to lurking place* Ah, just where I left it.

Not totally unrelated, but I seem to encoutner a lot more homosuggestive features in detectivenovels or series. For instance the latest incarnation of Sherlock, as well as the movie with Robert Downey Junior, as well as the books on the Dresdenfiles. Is this becoming a thing now?

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by Astrella

Ooh, neat! Have a great time.
Where in Belgium are you going to if I may ask?

Thanks! We're staying in Brussels, but the actual hospital is at Genk. We're planning to stay the whole day there because it's a fairly pretty city... and there's a Starbucks. Hipster BF.

[Mynxae]

Considering getting drunk because my boyfriend's Uncle decided to steal my boyfriend for the night when I was promised cuddles. >.>

Pity all we have is Vodka.. (I prefer Rum/Jack-Daniels) Gets me drunk pretty easy though. That, and binging on pringles and tim tams. Oh yeah, fun night here. Woot woot.

[Astrella]

Originally Posted by Musashi

Thanks! We're staying in Brussels, but the actual hospital is at Genk. We're planning to stay the whole day there because it's a fairly pretty city... and there's a Starbucks. Hipster BF.

Neat! You should be passing by very close here then~

-----

So, back from psychiatrist. Had a much better feeling about the conversation this time. She said I should go ahead and schedule an appointment with an endocrinologist, so I called the doctor in Antwerp she gave me the contact info for but the earliest appointment I could get was the 30th of November. ._. Which was a bummer... Mrrr... and it would only be an introductory talk then, so who knows how long it'll take afterwards. :/ I just feel like everytime I get my hopes up another month or two is added to everything and new complications arise.

She did say I could also try and contact the hospital in Ghent so I'm going to ask around and hear if that would give me a sooner date.

Edit: And apparently even just changing my legal name requires a date setup for SRS already in most cases. :/

[The Succubus]

Originally Posted by Mynxae

Considering getting drunk because my boyfriend's Uncle decided to steal my boyfriend for the night when I was promised cuddles. >.>

Pity all we have is Vodka.. (I prefer Rum/Jack-Daniels) Gets me drunk pretty easy though. That, and binging on pringles and tim tams. Oh yeah, fun night here. Woot woot.

Bad Uncle! Naughty!

*cuddles Mynx*

[Mynxae]

Originally Posted by The Succubus

Bad Uncle! Naughty!

*cuddles Mynx*

*cuddles back* Thanks. But I think it's time to start on the Vodka. I blame my guild in WoW, they said I should.

[Socratov]

Originally Posted by Astrella

Neat! You should be passing by very close here then~

-----

So, back from psychiatrist. Had a much better feeling about the conversation this time. She said I should go ahead and schedule an appointment with an endocrinologist, so I called the doctor in Antwerp she gave me the contact info for but the earliest appointment I could get was the 30th of November. ._. Which was a bummer... Mrrr... and it would only be an introductory talk then, so who knows how long it'll take afterwards. :/ I just feel like everytime I get my hopes up another month or two is added to everything and new complications arise.

She did say I could also try and contact the hospital in Ghent so I'm going to ask around and hear if that would give me a sooner date.

Edit: And apparently even just changing my legal name requires a date setup for SRS already in most cases. :/

Well, All I can do is give a hug and tell you to have patience. it amy take some extra time, but in the end you will get there. On the name changing thing, well, aparently that's the law, can't really do much about it... That is, until, you know, you swap out your equipment, which in turn will take time until you're there...

@Mynxae: ofcourse, but keep in mind that vodka is like a jealous girlfriend: if you don't stick to the vodka and venture out to other spirits you will have a bad hangover. If you keep at vodka you'll be fine though...

[Zorg]

@ Absol - good to hear you're going ok hope your parents don't stress you too much in the next little while. Been thinking of you and hoping you've been doing ok while the foums were down


@ Astrella - the interminable waiting really sucks, doesn't it? It seems odd to me that you can't change your name easily - in Australia you can register as transitioning and get a name change without any set dates.
Still, great news that the psych appointment went well


@ Mynxae - I'm with you: had a tube of pringles earlier, almost through a pack of Tim Tams...

Spoiler

Had a super dysphoric weekend - went out with my GF to the rocks markets and saw heaps of cool clothes, then got painfully self-conscious of how far I had to go and got super depressed. Could barely tolerate thinking about myself, let alone looking in the mirror. Spent most of last night crying to myself

Today went better - had a bit of a talk with my GF where she felt it was like she had to choose between me or her family (who won't be understanding for the most part) which was kind of good and yet pretty tough to hear.
Still, things are going a bit better between us. Not 100% yet and won't be for some time, but better than they were.

On a more positive note I crushed someone on ebay to win a pair of these bad boys, and found the website of one of the stalls I saw on the weekend.

[Lix Lorn]

Originally Posted by Socratov

hey thread! *hugs a few people* *evades some of the glomps and tackles* haha, nearly had me you scoundrels. *sneaks back to lurking place* Ah, just where I left it.

Not totally unrelated, but I seem to encoutner a lot more homosuggestive features in detectivenovels or series. For instance the latest incarnation of Sherlock, as well as the movie with Robert Downey Junior, as well as the books on the Dresdenfiles. Is this becoming a thing now?

So much bromance...
Try watching X-Men: First Class and not shipping Xavier and Magneto. xD

[noparlpf]

Originally Posted by Zorg

Spoiler

Had a super dysphoric weekend - went out with my GF to the rocks markets and saw heaps of cool clothes, then got painfully self-conscious of how far I had to go and got super depressed. Could barely tolerate thinking about myself, let alone looking in the mirror. Spent most of last night crying to myself

Today went better - had a bit of a talk with my GF where she felt it was like she had to choose between me or her family (who won't be understanding for the most part) which was kind of good and yet pretty tough to hear.
Still, things are going a bit better between us. Not 100% yet and won't be for some time, but better than they were.

Sounds rough. I'm sorry.

On a more positive note I crushed someone on ebay to win a pair of these bad boys, and found the website of one of the stalls I saw on the weekend.

Sweet. They don't even sell those anymore.

[Absol197]

Originally Posted by Zorg

@ Absol - good to hear you're going ok hope your parents don't stress you too much in the next little while. Been thinking of you and hoping you've been doing ok while the foums were down

That makes me so happy, to know that someone else was thinking of me! The downtime was kinda rough, simply 'cause it coincided with some other stuff. And I had a bad day yesterday, too. I got really conscious of the fact that everybody keeps calling me "Sir." I can't really explain myself to every single pizza guy, restaurant server, movie theater ticket and concessions seller, and gym employee, but each time is like a little dagger in my mind. It stinks .

And because I was feeling down, my parents picked up on it, and they started grilling me again about what's going on. My mom keeps trying to guess what it is, and even though I've either remained silent or said, "Maybe," to everything she's asked, she keeps taking that as meaning, "Yes." So now apparently I'm gay and my best friend is moving away, among other things. The funny bit about the first one is that it's both true and related, just not in the way she thinks it is .

Originally Posted by Zorg

Spoiler

Had a super dysphoric weekend - went out with my GF to the rocks markets and saw heaps of cool clothes, then got painfully self-conscious of how far I had to go and got super depressed. Could barely tolerate thinking about myself, let alone looking in the mirror. Spent most of last night crying to myself

Today went better - had a bit of a talk with my GF where she felt it was like she had to choose between me or her family (who won't be understanding for the most part) which was kind of good and yet pretty tough to hear.
Still, things are going a bit better between us. Not 100% yet and won't be for some time, but better than they were.

I'm so sorry! *hugs!!* Neither of those things are any fun at all. I know there isn't much I can do from across the world, but if you can think of anything, let me know, okay?

Originally Posted by Zorg

On a more positive note I crushed someone on ebay to win a pair of these bad boys, and found the website of one of the stalls I saw on the weekend.

Those are awesome pants!

[Asta Kask]

Originally Posted by Lilac_Shade

It seems like every time I post here it's 'cos I have something sad to say, and unfortunately I need to do that one more time.

Spoiler

I have this really close best friend. She's cis, but bi and she's been relatively active in our local queer community. Recently, she's been saying some cissexist stuff, which I called her out on and she apologized for. But, just now, we were talking about pronouns, and she was going on about how annoying "they, them, their" pronouns are because they piss her off grammatically. I explained that as an ally, it's her job to help English evolve into a more gender-inclusive language. She got really passive aggressive and said she'll just stop talking since everyone takes these things so personally. I'm used to getting this kind of stuff from my family and strangers, but I've long considered her a friend and an ally, and recent weeks as well as this incident have culminated to kind of shatter that image. I really have no idea how to respond to this situation. Help?

The drop erodes the stone, not by the power of its impact but by its constant falling. Keep on gently nagging - that's how we learn.

Originally Posted by Lentrax

*whispers in Lixies ear*
Thanks.

I believe the secret signal is to nibble on her earlobe.