What are the problems with the "A song of ice and fire" series?

[Sinfonian]

Originally Posted by INDYSTAR188

I think that I would add Maester Luwin, Jon Arryn, Davos Seaworth, Rhaegar Targaryen and his Kingsguard (minus Jaime) to your list of known to be good/loyal/potentially good characters.

I have to say that I think I disagree with you on the count of Rhaegar. He's lauded several times by Selmy and a few others, but that doesn't mean you can forget that it was because of one of his actions that Robert's Rebellion ended up happening (granted his father's handling of it exacerbated things to say the least, but the fact remains that he was the one who set the spark to the powder keg).

Spoiler

Oh, and I forgot to mention that in addition to the possible abduction of Lyanna Stark (I'm not fully convinced that she didn't go of her own free will), He did so with a wife and two children. However, even if Lyanna was complicit in her being taken away by Rhaenys, the fact remains that he committed a grave insult to two of the most powerful families on the continent and then (seemingly) did nothing about it except fight against Robert at the Trident.

Edit: Upon further reflection, I seem to recall that much of the Kingsguard, especially by the later books, are less than honorable people. I can't be bothered to look up all the details on that one, but I seem to recall that being the case.

[Cikomyr]

I don't think we can judge Rhaegar's actions during the Rebellion, as the whole thing is an epistemological and ontological cluster****. There is so much we don't know, and we don't even know what we don't know.

One of the character I've grown to like is Sansa. I started the books wanting to bitch-slap that little traitor princess so badly, yet I've grown fond of her. She is so deeply caught up in Littlefinger's web of intrigues, she is probably more of a Prisoner in the Vale than she was in King's Landing.

Yet she has the ambition of becoming a Player of the Game in her own right, and once you taken the veil off her eyes, she ain't stupid. I can't wait to see how she further develop, because development she has known.

[ThiagoMartell]

Originally Posted by Sinfonian

Edit: Upon further reflection, I seem to recall that much of the Kingsguard, especially by the later books, are less than honorable people. I can't be bothered to look up all the details on that one, but I seem to recall that being the case.

You're thinking of the wrong Kingsguard.
The Kingsguard during the war was filled with noble, honorable and capable knights. The Kingsguard we get in the books is filled with guys that are not that honorable and not that capable, to the point where a non-knight joins them.

I'll just plug the text from the Tower of Joy scene here, since it's so cool.

Spoiler

Originally Posted by A Game of Thrones, Chapter 39

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.
“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.
“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.
“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”
“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”
“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”
“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.
“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”
“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.
“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”
“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.
Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.
“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”

[Scowling Dragon]

Even if we are not altruistic we are conditioning ourselves value the feeling (A Completely renewable resource ) of helping others more then we value the feeling of material objects (Non-Renewable resources). Thats good. We value each other more then before.

So the problems with the series in my terms:

A: WAY TOO LONG!

B: Conflicts feel pointless because its "Gray VS Gray", with the only incentive to care is if we like the person or not.

C: Characters are killed off at a fast pace. As a result we loose incentive to care about them, thus.

D: Technically autumn comes before winter. I guess "Autumn is coming" isn't as exiting though.

E: The increasing level of magic in the writing isn't very welcome.

[Sinfonian]

I maintain that Rhaegar does bear responsibility for the consequences of his actions, especially when he certainly had opportunities to take steps to reduce the impact of his foolhardy action.

Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell

You're thinking of the wrong Kingsguard.
The Kingsguard during the war was filled with noble, honorable and capable knights. The Kingsguard we get in the books is filled with guys that are not that honorable and not that capable, to the point where a non-knight joins them.

I'll just plug the text from the Tower of Joy scene here, since it's so cool.

True enough regarding the Kingsguard in the years before Robert took the throne. My statement (though vaguely stated) referred to the Kingsguard that are shown in the books. Supporting that, a cursory search yields information that, with regard to the books themselves, shows those newer members of the Kingsguard to be lacking. Selmy was right: the order went downhill after they admitted Jamie Lannister.

I did enjoy that scene with the Tower of Joy, and think that meeting Howland Reed for the rest of the story is one of the future plot points to which I'm looking most forward.

[INDYSTAR188]

Originally Posted by Sinfonian

I maintain that Rhaegar does bear responsibility for the consequences of his actions, especially when he certainly had opportunities to take steps to reduce the impact of his foolhardy action.


True enough regarding the Kingsguard in the years before Robert took the throne. My statement (though vaguely stated) referred to the Kingsguard that are shown in the books. Supporting that, a cursory search yields information that, with regard to the books themselves, shows those newer members of the Kingsguard to be lacking. Selmy was right: the order went downhill after they admitted Jamie Lannister.

I did enjoy that scene with the Tower of Joy, and think that meeting Howland Reed for the rest of the story is one of the future plot points to which I'm looking most forward.

When I named the Kingsguard I didn't mean the current one, although I do believe Ser Balon Swann is probably a good knight (honorable/chivalrous/etc). I just meant to point out that, in my opinion, Martin is making such a dramatic turn to the dreary ('winter') in terms of the state of the realm and mens morality, that there has to be a group of true, honest, good people who will win the day at some point.... right?

Certainly it feels like winter in westeros. Most of the best people were murdered but I like to think it's a setup for a big conclusion. I have some private thoughts as to where I think the stories going but I'm also the guy who thought Ned was going to be the main protagonist throughout the series... and then Robb too.

[Sanguine]

But Robb was never a point-of-view character...

[INDYSTAR188]

Originally Posted by Sanguine

But Robb was never a point-of-view character...

I don't really think that matters too much. Jaime didn't become one until book 3 which is when I learned I was wrong about Robb. Same with Cersei, both are important main pov's now but not initially.

[snoopy13a]

Originally Posted by INDYSTAR188

I don't really think that matters too much. Jaime didn't become one until book 3 which is when I learned I was wrong about Robb. Same with Cersei, both are important main pov's now but not initially.

The Cersei chapters are great. She has all of her father's cunning but none of his brains.

[Sanguine]

Originally Posted by INDYSTAR188

I don't really think that matters too much. Jaime didn't become one until book 3 which is when I learned I was wrong about Robb. Same with Cersei, both are important main pov's now but not initially.

I honestly can't wrap my mind around a main character whose not also a pov character, but I suppose it's possible.

I've always kind of viewed Dany as the main character. She's a pov character in all of the books except A Feast For Crows, she is clearly the best fit for Azor Ahai Reborn, she is the legitimate heir to the throne living in exile, or at least she was until Young Grifff, and she is The Mother of Frackin' Dragons.

I could also see Bran or Jon as the main character of the series.

[snoopy13a]

Originally Posted by Sanguine

I honestly can't wrap my mind around a main character whose not also a pov character, but I suppose it's possible.

I've always kind of viewed Dany as the main character. She's a pov character in all of the books except A Feast For Crows, she is clearly the best fit for Azor Ahai Reborn, she is the legitimate heir to the throne living in exile, or at least she was until Young Grifff, and she is The Mother of Frackin' Dragons.

I could also see Bran or Jon as the main character of the series.

I think it is plausible to think that Robb was going to fill in for Ned (actually, he sort of did )

And we all know that Ramsey Bolton--the noblest, most heroic, kindest, gentlest, and most forgiving character in the series--is going to be Azor Ahai Reborn. See, he isn't really Roose's son. Instead, Aemon snuck down from the wall (it's only a couple hundred miles) and went to the peasant hut by the Dreadfort after Roose had his prima nucta thing. So, Ramsey truly has dragon blood

Seriously, do you guys think that the Boltons and Freys will get their comeuppance?

[Sanguine]

Originally Posted by snoopy13a

Seriously, do you guys think that the Boltons and Freys will get their comeuppance?

If by comeuppance you mean death by Dragonfire and/or the Others. Yes, yes I do.

Edit: That is to say I consider it a possibility, not that I think it's a sure thing.

[Dienekes]

Originally Posted by Sanguine

I honestly can't wrap my mind around a main character whose not also a pov character, but I suppose it's possible.

Try reading the old Sherlock Holmes stories. Also if you want to just be stuck in ASOIAF I think it's fair to call Stannis a main character (if not the main character) even though he does not have a single POV

[INDYSTAR188]

I think that the Frey's and Boltons are absolutely going to get what they deserve.

Spoiler

I'm hoping that somehow Jon ends up ok and Tormund and his other allies save his bacon. He then leaves his service on the wall and marches to Stannis to be the Stark he always wanted to be.

Also, this is a pretty awesome adaption of the Tower of Joy scene.

[McStabbington]

Having not read the entire series, I wouldn't say that there are problems with the story . . . yet. I think there have been problems with the implementation. Basically, it's become clear through interviews and the five books that Martin has put out that he had a clear sense of the beginning of the story and the end, but ran into a briar patch in the middle. That briar patch was what, in the movies, would be filled with the "take a level in badass" training montage.

Every one of the surviving Stark children are now being trained by some elder in some skill that down the road will result in them having ridiculous levels of power. But Martin didn't know how to do that realistically without either having a five-year jump in the timeline, or show the five years of training while everything else in the story ground to a thematic halt. For better or worse, he chose the latter, but when the story is finished, it might turn out that there was a more efficient and polished way to tell the tale that Martin was unable to find.

[snoopy13a]

Rereading the series reinforces that Arya is my favorite character. And Martin pretty much wastes her in the 4th and 5th books

One thing that was interesting is that Ned and Catelyn do a fairly good job in teaching Robb. But they hardly mentor Sansa (Arya and Bran are probably too young at this point). Instead, they just have the Septa teach her sewing.

Finally, I think Tywin Lannister should have written a guide to ruling:

Spoiler

Rule #1: Never show mercy to your vassals. Go Rains of Castamere on them. Making an example out of someone will stop internal revolt and it'll gain you respect from your rivals.

Rule#2: You can prudently show mercy to your enemies. They may be hesitant to surrender--the whole Rains of Castamere thing--but this prevents costly sieges. Plus, once you show mercy to one enemy, the others will be more receptive. If they betray your trust, then see Rule #1.

Rule #3: Always pay your debts (I had to add that in here )

Rule #4: Don't be afraid to betray your mad-king for profit. All's fair in love and war. Plus, what's a few bashed infants between friends?

Rule #5: Exploit your enemies' weaknesses. Suppose your enemy is a just, brave young lad who is an excellent warrior? How do you defeat him? Well, by having his vassals betray him, of course. If you can't beat them on the battlefield, beat them in the wedding reception. Plus, that'll save you from buying a gift--especially since Tullys only register for expensive gifts.

Rule #6: If you can't find someone, make someone up. Let's say you lose an Arya along the way. It happens; Aryas have a tendency to go missing. Easy solution: make your own Arya!

This handy-dandy guide is guaranteed to establish your family's dominance. Until your dwarf son murders you, of course.

So, Rule #7: Throw any dwarf sons down the well.

Now, let's see how the book could have helped the Starks:

Spoiler

1. Ancient Stark lord who just defeated ancient Bolton lord to become King of the North: What Stark did: Spared Bolton and left him in charge of one of the strongest castles in the North. Now What Would Tywin Do? (WWTD): Tywin would chop off every Bolton's head, destroy the Dreadfort, create a weak wooden fort in its place, and give it to his dwarf son--oops, dwarf sons are dangerous--I mean his younger brother.

2. Ancient Stark king who just put down a Bolton rebellion that took years to take over the Dreadfort: What Stark did: Pardoned Bolton and left him in charge of one of the strongest castles in the North. WWTD: Have a bard compose a cheesy song and chop off every Bolton's head, destroy the Dreadfort, and give it to his dwarf son--I mean his younger brother. Yay for Rains of Flayed Skin!!!

Seriously though, the Boltons are the evilest family in the realm and the Starks spared them twice. Remember these are people who keep skins of their enemies--including some ancient Starks. I wonder how that mercy worked out?

3. Your younger sister guilts you into making an awkward promise that will cheese off your wife. What Stark did: Raised his bastard son/bastard nephew as his own. WWTD: Throw the baby down the well, or if it was the Prince's bastard son, bash its brains out in front of King Robert for bonus points.

4. Your fiance tries to kill your sister and her friend but is prevented by your sister's wolf. What Stark did: Lied and covered for her fiance leading to hurt feelings all around and the death of her wolf. WWTD: Kill the jerk and say he drowned.

5. You've found out that the prince isn't really the king's son. The king is dying and the king's brother enlists you to help him secure the throne. What Stark did: Uh, wouldn't be fair to the children. WWTD: Sure, the sooner the better.

6. While sick and seriously wounded you hook up with some woman. What Stark did: Marry her and destroyed a marriage alliance. WWTD: Throw her down the well.

As you can see, the Tywin Lannister guide to ruling would have been helpful to the Starks.

[Sinfonian]

I'd add one more rule, to complement #5.

Spoiler

Rule 8: Exploit your friends' weaknesses. Why only work your enemies for your own benefit, when you can work you allies as well and gain twice the profit? Should you help put a man into a position of great power, make sure to tie him to your house through both marriage and debt. That should allow you as much influence as you may require.

[ThiagoMartell]

There is a big difference between not liking something and calling it badly written. Just something many critics should remember.

[Emmerask]

My biggest problem with A song of ice and fire is a combination of two points, one of them alone I maybe could oversee but combined really are a show stopper for me.

1)nearly all the characters I liked are now dead or pretty much dead, what remains are mostly those I have little interest in at best or hate at worst
2)and the already mentioned snail crawl pacing

Put together its (for me) now an extremely slow paced overall plot in a world populated with characters I don´t really like ie extremely tedious to read.

[mangosta71]

Originally Posted by VanBuren

Can I see a source for the bolded? Because I'm not inclined to take that statement at face value at all.

Does it suffice to say that those who are most widely-regarded as being good people tend to be those who believe that they will be rewarded for their deeds in a future existence? I think I'm allowed to say that much here, but further elaboration would almost certainly stray beyond the bounds set by the forum rules.

[VanBuren]

Originally Posted by mangosta71

Does it suffice to say that those who are most widely-regarded as being good people tend to be those who believe that they will be rewarded for their deeds in a future existence? I think I'm allowed to say that much here, but further elaboration would almost certainly stray beyond the bounds set by the forum rules.

Only if we make the same allowance that some of the greatest crimes of human history were perpetrated by fervent believers in an afterlife.

Attempting to conflate spirituality and morality is a dodgy road that doesn't really go anywhere, IMO. And I say this as a fairly religious bro.

In short, that explanation doesn't convince me.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Ravens and 'murders of'.

This ruined the series forever for me. Murder is the collective noun for crows and only for crows. Not for birds in general, not even for related or similar looking birds. Ravens don't have a universally agreed equivilent to 'murder' but an 'unkindness of ravens' or 'a conspiracy of ravens' are the most popular.

Garron is another stupid word that breaks the flow. My mother used to be obsessed with horses as a child, grew up in Scotland and didn't know this ridiculously obscure word. Making your readers get a dictionary half way through reading is bad.

[Parra]

Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton

Making your readers get a dictionary half way through reading is bad.

Maybe bad for the flow of the book, but good for the reader long term imo

[JustSomeGuy]

I managed to read all of it without knowing what a garron is, other than an ok but not flashy horse of some sort.

Aurochs, on the other hand...

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Originally Posted by Sinfonian

4) His use of pseudo-medieval language is not only inconsistent, but comes across to me as poorly done. It doesn't really serve to keep the setting particularly immersive, but makes it seems like he's trying quite hard and failing to do so. I see this a serious literary failing on his part.

Could you go into this a bit more? As a writer I'm interested in you opinions of this matter, and how you personally see it.

[Sinfonian]

Originally Posted by TheWombatOfDoom

Could you go into this a bit more? As a writer I'm interested in you opinions of this matter, and how you personally see it.

I would do so; but as I said when I reposted that in this thread, I wrote that well over a year ago. I haven't read a single word of GRRM's since a week after the release of ADWD. Therefore I can't really use specifics, but I'll address it briefly.

From time to time (some examples might be some of the words discussed in recent posts) Martin will use a term that seems "medieval" when there are perfectly interchangeable, more descriptive terms that are more widely used. Even more annoyingly, he does not do so with particular consistency. It just grates me the wrong way. I admit that to be a personal preference.

[ThiagoMartell]

I'm not even a native speaker and I did not have to check a dictionary while reading through the books.

[Eldan]

There were some words I did not know, but not enough that it seemed to stop me from reading through them. Not significantly more, I think, than in any other English book I read.

[Bastian Weaver]

Pacing. I struggled through the first book, expecting... well, something to happen at the end, some grand finale. When I finished it, I said "What? That wasn't even the beginning? Good-bye, Martin".

[Eric Tolle]

Originally Posted by snoopy13a

The Cersei chapters are great. She has all of her father's cunning but none of his brains.

Meh. Cersei strikes me as a fairly generic "evil queen mother"type. Overprotective of her brat, a decadent sexpot, kind of stupid and domineering, and here's a gratuitous lesbian sex scene!

It's all a bit OTT, and I'm sure I pretty much saw the same character in an old Dr. Who comic book.