Did we ever learn what kind of creature Malack is? For some reason I think he might be a loth, or a daemon as D&D used too call them before someone at TSR figured out that "daemon" is actually pronounced like "demon" and not "damon," , but I'm not really sure if they comic has ever clarified that.
There has been some speculation that Malack might be a yuan-ti, given that after 145 strips we still have yet to see any evidence that he actually has feet. Certainly he does seem to come across as more snakelike than most lizardfolk.
There has been some speculation that Malack might be a yuan-ti, given that after 145 strips we still have yet to see any evidence that he actually has feet. Certainly he does seem to come across as more snakelike than most lizardfolk.
Lizardfolk could include more than one race, as (I think) goblinkind does. We know it doesn't include kobolds, but it could conceivably include yuan-ti.
"Lizardfolk" is the name of one race. Not yuan-ti.
"Goblin" is the name of one race. "Goblinoid" is the term for a related group of races.
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Lizardfolk could include more than one race, as (I think) goblinkind does. We know it doesn't include kobolds, but it could conceivably include yuan-ti.
Yuan-ti are snake people. Even if the term lizardfolk was being used as a reference to several possible varieties of lizard people, it wouldn't include the yuan-ti since snakes are not lizards.
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"Nothing you can't spell will ever work." - Will Rogers
"What you must learn is that these rules are no different than the rules of a computer system. Some of them can be bent. Others can be broken." - Morpheus, The Matrix
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krellen
Remember, Evil isn't "selfish". It's Evil. "Look out for number one" is a Neutral attitude. Evil looks out for number one while crushing number two.
Yuan-ti are snake people. Even if the term lizardfolk was being used as a reference to several possible varieties of lizard people, it wouldn't include the yuan-ti since snakes are not lizards.
Well, again, natural dialogue isn't always precise about monster biology.
Look, I'm not really interested in the fiddly details of D&D rules as they pertain to textual analysis of OotS. (Although I like them in other contexts.) What I'm interested in is this: If it were to turn out that Malack is actually a Yuan-ti, would it then be possible that Rich stuck Yuan-ti into the "lizardfolk" category for purposes of Malack's dialogue? Sure. There may be rules details that make that an unlikely choice, but it's not an impossible choice for a D&D world designer. We just don't know how precise or casual Malack was being when he used the term.
Well, again, natural dialogue isn't always precise about monster biology.
Look, I'm not really interested in the fiddly details of D&D rules as they pertain to textual analysis of OotS. (Although I like them in other contexts.) What I'm interested in is this: If it were to turn out that Malack is actually a Yuan-ti, would it then be possible that Rich stuck Yuan-ti into the "lizardfolk" category for purposes of Malack's dialogue? Sure. There may be rules details that make that an unlikely choice, but it's not an impossible choice for a D&D world designer. We just don't know how precise or casual Malack was being when he used the term.
No, because (I repeat) snakes are NOT lizards! Not only does it not make sense to group them together from a D&D perspective, but also from your vaunted "natural dialogue" perspective. A reptilian creature would never make the mistake of conflating the two types of creatures.
The term "lizardfolk" cannot possibly be used to refer to yuan-ti without the person doing so being completely in error.
__________________
"Nothing you can't spell will ever work." - Will Rogers
"What you must learn is that these rules are no different than the rules of a computer system. Some of them can be bent. Others can be broken." - Morpheus, The Matrix
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krellen
Remember, Evil isn't "selfish". It's Evil. "Look out for number one" is a Neutral attitude. Evil looks out for number one while crushing number two.
Last edited by KillianHawkeye : 09-20-2012 at 01:37 AM.
Lizardfolk could include more than one race, as (I think) goblinkind does. We know it doesn't include kobolds, but it could conceivably include yuan-ti.
As others have mentioned, "lizardfolk" refers to a single species. There's no "goblinfolk" in D&D, but you're probably thinking of "goblinoid," which refers to goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears.
Sure, Rich could ignore the 3rd Ed rules on which OOTS is based, and make yuan-ti refer to themselves as lizardfolk, and he could make devils refer to themselves as demons too.
I think the assumption in the "Malack is a yuan-ti" argument was always that, for whatever reason, he was lying about being a lizardfolk. Not that yuan-ti were considered a sub-class of lizardfolk in the Stickverse.
I think the assumption in the "Malack is a yuan-ti" argument was always that, for whatever reason, he was lying about being a lizardfolk. Not that yuan-ti were considered a sub-class of lizardfolk in the Stickverse.
Oh! That's very interesting. Why do people assume he was lying?
They use the same head model. We've seen Troglodytes, so the reptile races are not homogeneous in the same way that the humanoids are. We haven't seen Yuan-ti, nor have they been mentioned in comic that I can recall. If they did appear, I'd wager the head would be slightly different - more fangy and less toothy, for one thing.
Did Rich include them in any of the miniatures from the Kickstarter thus far? That could potentially settle the Yuan-ti debate.
As others have mentioned, "lizardfolk" refers to a single species. There's no "goblinfolk" in D&D, but you're probably thinking of "goblinoid," which refers to goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears.
I know there is no "goblinkind" (not goblinfolk) in D&D, but I believe Redcloak has used the term. I could be misremembering.
They use the same head model. We've seen Troglodytes, so the reptile races are not homogeneous in the same way that the humanoids are. We haven't seen Yuan-ti, nor have they been mentioned in comic that I can recall. If they did appear, I'd wager the head would be slightly different - more fangy and less toothy, for one thing.
Did Rich include them in any of the miniatures from the Kickstarter thus far? That could potentially settle the Yuan-ti debate.
LOL! Good one, Joe! I really did laugh out loud. Lizardfolk and troglodytes are both humanoid (reptilian) [as are kobolds], but yuan-ti are monstrous humanoids. I don't recall any yuan-ti, but at my age that doesn't mean anything. So the green guy there was a troglodyte? I would have guess that he was a lizardman and that Malack was something you take for gas. Sorry, couldn't resist. I guess at my age you start regressing. More fangy and less toothy sounds like the tooth, the whole tooth, and nothing but the tooth, so help me megalodon!
I saw the thanks for the Kickstarter but had no idea what that was. So it was a set of OOTS miniatures?! That sounds cool. Gotta catch 'em all! Can you buy the whole set, ore only random "booster" boxes (as in "boost your wallet, we will," I guesss )?
The term "lizardfolk" cannot possibly be used to refer to yuan-ti without the person doing so being completely in error.
Technically, yes. But the world is filled with natural speakers who say things that aren't technically correct. Some people group whales in with fish, for instance. I am not saying that it's likely; I'm saying Rich could go that way if he wanted, without contradicting anything, because we don't know exactly what Malack meant by "lizardfolk."
There's a tendency for internet discussions to devolve quickly into entrenched sides, with both sides saying "I'm absolutely right, and you can't be!" I'm only interested in spelling out possibilities. In this case there's a possibility that, in the OotS world, someone using the word "lizardfolk" might include yuan-ti, just as someone using the word "fish" could be referring to whales. It might be 97% unlikely, but it is certainly possible.
Oh! That's very interesting. Why do people assume he was lying?
I don't know why people assume he's telling the truth. I don't really have an opinion on what race Malack is, but it seems more likely that he's lying than that he has a conception of lizardfolk that encompasses yuan-ti.
Technically, yes. But the world is filled with natural speakers who say things that aren't technically correct. Some people group whales in with fish, for instance. I am not saying that it's likely; I'm saying Rich could go that way if he wanted, without contradicting anything, because we don't know exactly what Malack meant by "lizardfolk."
I realize that an outsider could make that kind of mistake, but a whale or a fish never would! That's kinda my point.
__________________
"Nothing you can't spell will ever work." - Will Rogers
"What you must learn is that these rules are no different than the rules of a computer system. Some of them can be bent. Others can be broken." - Morpheus, The Matrix
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krellen
Remember, Evil isn't "selfish". It's Evil. "Look out for number one" is a Neutral attitude. Evil looks out for number one while crushing number two.
I realize that an outsider could make that kind of mistake, but a whale or a fish never would! That's kinda my point.
But there was a time when everyone, mermaids and talking fish included, put whales into the "fish" barrel. We'd call it wrong, but the language was just different back then.
To be clear, I'm pretty sure Malack is a lizardman, but I wouldn't be outraged if it turns out he's a yuan-ti. It wouldn't be that unnatural to me to hear someone refer to lizardmen, troglodytes, yuan-ti, saurians, and other reptiloids as "lizardfolk", especially if they had an interconnected society in which lizardfolk were dominant the way humans are in human lands.
But there was a time when everyone, mermaids and talking fish included, put whales into the "fish" barrel. We'd call it wrong, but the language was just different back then.
Uhhh... that's because for most of human history we weren't very familiar with aquatic mammals, seeing as we're land-based creatures. Seriously, if there were actual merfolk they would have to work REALLY hard to ignore that fish don't need to come up for air and whales do, or that whales don't have gills or air bladders, or that they birth live young as opposed to laying eggs like (most) fish, or any of the huge number of differences between fish and mammals.
You could say "oh well Draconic has the snake/lizard distinction, but he's speaking in Common which is a more limited language" but that runs into an occam's razor issue; at what point is it simpler to accept that people in OotS can tell the difference between a snake and a lizard than to keep adding hitherto-unseen linguistic quirks to the universe?
You could say "oh well Draconic has the snake/lizard distinction, but he's speaking in Common which is a more limited language" but that runs into an occam's razor issue; at what point is it simpler to accept that people in OotS can tell the difference between a snake and a lizard than to keep adding hitherto-unseen linguistic quirks to the universe?
I totally agree, especially when making up such an unusual linguistic quirk makes zero sense for a webcomic which is communicating to readers who can only be assumed to be familiar with English in its modern form.
It's the same reason there are no differences between the two genders in D&D. Even though males and females were not considered equal in the medieval world that D&D mimics, the game caters to a more modern standard of gender equality. So, because it's assumed that readers will know the difference between lizards and snakes (or whales and fish), there's no reason for these repeated attempts to find a way for them to be artificially grouped together. It would only result in a "hey, remember when I said lizards? I meant lizards AND SNAKES" gotcha moment.
Personally, I think the Giant is a better writer than that.
__________________
"Nothing you can't spell will ever work." - Will Rogers
"What you must learn is that these rules are no different than the rules of a computer system. Some of them can be bent. Others can be broken." - Morpheus, The Matrix
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krellen
Remember, Evil isn't "selfish". It's Evil. "Look out for number one" is a Neutral attitude. Evil looks out for number one while crushing number two.
Malack is rather clearly a lizardfolk. On the other hand, however, that doesn't mean he's a pure blooded lizardfolk. He could just as easily be half-camel like V (possibly making them half-camel brothers).
Uhhh... that's because for most of human history we weren't very familiar with aquatic mammals, seeing as we're land-based creatures.
No, people just had fewer mental categories for animals. They grouped bats with birds because they flew, moles with earthworms because they burrowed, snakes with earthworms because they were limbless. It was a fundamentally different way of looking at nature.
But we're getting pretty far afield here. My only point is that it wouldn't strike me as odd for Durkon to say, "Ach, yer a yuan-ti? Dinna ye say ye were a lizardfolk?" and Malack to reply, "Where I come from, we all think of ourselves as lizardfolk: lizard men, yuan-ti, troglodytes, saurials." It's a fine-grained distinction I don't think would affect the story in the slightest.
I totally agree, especially when making up such an unusual linguistic quirk makes zero sense for a webcomic which is communicating to readers who can only be assumed to be familiar with English in its modern form.
It's the same reason there are no differences between the two genders in D&D. Even though males and females were not considered equal in the medieval world that D&D mimics, the game caters to a more modern standard of gender equality. So, because it's assumed that readers will know the difference between lizards and snakes (or whales and fish), there's no reason for these repeated attempts to find a way for them to be artificially grouped together. It would only result in a "hey, remember when I said lizards? I meant lizards AND SNAKES" gotcha moment.
Personally, I think the Giant is a better writer than that.
In original D&D, female characters of each race were limited to a lower maximum Strength score than male characters. You're right that more recent notions of gender equality (Gary published original D&D in 1973) led to the elimination of gender differences in Strength.
If he says he's a lizardman (or lizardfolk, using the more recent notion), then I don't see any reason to doubt it.
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Do We Know What Kind of Creature Malack Is?
, but I'm not really sure if they comic has ever clarified that.
More fangy and less toothy sounds like the tooth, the whole tooth, and nothing but the tooth, so help me megalodon! 
