If you were Jon Snow what would you do? (ADwD Spoilers!)

INDYSTAR188 · 10-01-2012, 08:18 PM

First of all let me start by saying...

IF YOU ARE NOT COMPLETELY FINISHED WITH ALL OF THE ASOIAF BOOKS THEN READ NO FURTHER!!!! MAJOR STORY RUINING SPOILERS FOR YOU! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

Secondly, I am starting this tread so as to not derail this one. I would like to quote you the letter Ramsey Bolton sent to Jon Snow at the end of ADwD.

"Your false king is dead bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore. Your false king's friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell. Come see them, bastard. Your false king lied, and so did you. You told the world you burned the King-Beyond-the-Wall. Instead you sent him to Winterfell to steal my bride from me.

I will have my bride back. If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell. I want my bride back. I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want this wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it."

Ramsay Bolton, Trueborn Lord of Winterfell.

So, simply put if you were Jon Snow what would you do?

Urpriest · 10-01-2012, 08:39 PM

As Ramsay suggests: tell the Red Woman.

I think Jon knows enough about Ramsay to know that he's a generalized ******* with no sense of honor. He should probably try to confirm the story, and he's got access to the closest thing his world has to divination. He should have done at least a bit more reconnaissance than he did.

Lord Raziere · 10-01-2012, 08:41 PM

Dear Ramsay Bolton

As if anyone will believe you and your horrors. No. I need those people. They are not for sale. Furthermore I have more important things to worry about than your petty squabbles for land. Unless you care to come and actually help Westeros against the coming Others with the nice army you have, I have no time for your macabre nonsense. I mean really, have you listened to yourself? You sound more like one of those characters from grim fairy tales than an actual person, and your entire family follows suit. I would not be surprised if I traced back your lineage to its earliest annals and found that you were all sired by some demon or evil spirit, then became inbred to keep the line pure. You can keep him. I am not giving more food to the jackal.

So, unless you want to defend Westeros against the coming Others, please stop wasting my time.

-Lord Commander of the Nights Watch.

INDYSTAR188 · 10-01-2012, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urpriest

As Ramsay suggests: tell the Red Woman.

I think Jon knows enough about Ramsay to know that he's a generalized ******* with no sense of honor. He should probably try to confirm the story, and he's got access to the closest thing his world has to divination. He should have done at least a bit more reconnaissance than he did.

I agree completely. I don't know exactly what he was thinking in not even bothering to speak with her late in the book. I would have talked to my Officers and heard them out. I'm thinking it was a combination of pride and the need to protect his 'sister' that led him to make that rash speech. Also, I don't believe that he's dead.

Soras Teva Gee · 10-01-2012, 10:38 PM

If I were Jon Snow:

1) Long since wheedled daddy into leaning on his buddy the King for a name that wasn't Stark or Snow, married some spare noble daughter with a spare keep somewhere. Watch aurochs and crops for the rest of my days while having a bunch of kids

2) Taken the hot firebrand that stole my virginity and left Westeros. Beat up some rich dude's guards in Pentos (or where-ever) and get myself hired as his new head guard. Train a bunch of competent guards, marry my woman and eat well for the rest of my days while having a bunch of kids.

Above all avoid infection with the Two Great Stupids: family and honor.

So basically he screwed over his good choices a long time ago.

Sinfonian · 10-01-2012, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee

Above all avoid infection with the Two Great Stupids: family and honor.

Being raised by Ned Stark made that inevitable.

TheSummoner · 10-02-2012, 12:45 AM

Dear Ramsay Snow,

[Picture of a butt]

Jon Snow, Lord Commander of the Night's Watch

Urpriest has it right. First, let Mellisandre know. Jon may be skeptical about her, but even if he doesn't believe her powers, she should still know.

Next, prepare. Jon's big mistake was saying he was going to lead an army against Ramsay. That's what made his men turn on him. Let the Night's Watch know Ramsay is pissed. Leave out any involvement he had in Ramsay being pissed so it looks like it's all because of Stannis. Pray to the old gods and the new that Ramsay is making up the part about Stannis being dead.

Killer Angel · 10-02-2012, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urpriest

As Ramsay suggests: tell the Red Woman.

I think Jon knows enough about Ramsay to know that he's a generalized ******* with no sense of honor. He should probably try to confirm the story, and he's got access to the closest thing his world has to divination. He should have done at least a bit more reconnaissance than he did.

Sadly, Jon did a lot of stupid mistakes and bad evaluations. This one was only the last in line.

If I were Jon Snow, I would have acted differently than him, so I call it unfair to put me in his trousers, when a great part of the damage was already done.

INDYSTAR188 · 10-02-2012, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killer Angel

Sadly, Jon did a lot of stupid mistakes and bad evaluations. This one was only the last in line.

If I were Jon Snow, I would have acted differently than him, so I call it unfair to put me in his trousers, when a great part of the damage was already done.

Would you be willing to say what you would have done? I'm curious because I think his decisions concerning the Wildlings was the right one, but I think he should have given his Captains much more inclusion (or replaced them and sent them somewhere else).

TheSummoner · 10-02-2012, 10:00 AM

Agreed about the wildlings. His mistake there was not making it perfectly clear why it had to be that way.

"Ok, so you say we should leave them out there to die."
"Of course!"
"Very well. We let them die. By the thousands they perish either due to cold or hunger. Or the Others. Then, by the thousands, they are brought back and rather than having to contend with a large group of wildlings who we have a bit of leverage over, some who may be willing to aid us even if only in the short term, we have thousands more undead to deal with. Thousands more wights who do not tire, are far more difficult to kill than a man, and will not stop until either they are dead or we are. You've had more experience against them than I, how well do you like the thought of fighting thousands more as undermanned as we are?"
"The Wall..."
"Can be breached. We barely held the gate against the wildlings before. Even if we were to seal every one, a foe could climb over it. We do not have the men to stop a foe that large from crossing at some point. They would cross by the hundreds, if not thousands, and we would be overwhelmed. First us, then the rest of Westeros."

Confronted with the alternative, I don't think there would be much arguement about letting the Wildlings through. They wouldn't like it, but they'd like the alternative less.

There's still the bit about the wall being magic and keeping the wights and others out through that... but I never really got the impression that Jon OR his men knew/believed that. Sam is probably the only one who would due to his encounter with Coldhands, but he's not anywhere nearby anymore.

Weezer · 10-02-2012, 10:16 AM

Die?

In a more serious vein, I'm with Killer Angel, Jon Snow was infar too deep by the time the letter came. I believe he was pretty much doomed even if he didn't let them through the wall, some inevitable trigger would have set off the assasination.

Morph Bark · 10-02-2012, 10:17 AM

brb, gonna finish the last few DwD chapters.

Thialfi · 10-02-2012, 11:54 AM

Were I Jon Snow, I would crumble up the letter, confused by the nonsense contained in it, and throw it into the fire. I would then snuggle with Ygritte against the cold. I would perhaps later tell Mance about the crazed lord as we were making plans to defend against the others.

Urpriest · 10-02-2012, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INDYSTAR188

I agree completely. I don't know exactly what he was thinking in not even bothering to speak with her late in the book. I would have talked to my Officers and heard them out. I'm thinking it was a combination of pride and the need to protect his 'sister' that led him to make that rash speech. Also, I don't believe that he's dead.

On that note, I actually think he probably is dead, but not permanently. He was killed by stabbing, so his body is still pretty thoroughly intact, unlike Catlyn's, and the nearby Red Priest is if anything more ruthless and magically potent than Thoros. I don't think we've seen the last of him, just the last of his independence from Mellisandre's control.

INDYSTAR188 · 10-02-2012, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urpriest

On that note, I actually think he probably is dead, but not permanently.

IMO, I think that Tormund, Wun Wun, his guardsmen (Leathers), and other loyal friends probably rushed in (it does say that everyone was running outside at the racket of Wun Wun ripping apart Sir Patrek) and there was a battle. I am hoping that Jon's next chapter has him waking up sorely wounded but safe.

Quote:

I don't think we've seen the last of him, just the last of his independence from Mellisandre's control.

I agree with this completely.

Killer Angel · 10-03-2012, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INDYSTAR188

Would you be willing to say what you would have done? I'm curious because I think his decisions concerning the Wildlings was the right one, but I think he should have given his Captains much more inclusion (or replaced them and sent them somewhere else).

Pretty much what The Summoner said, putting even more weight on the "facing undead giants".
Jon wasn't respected by many of its men; in his situation, he needed firstly to gain their loyalty, and this can be done by really convincing them that winter is upon them and there is need of changing perspective.
Jon only showed his determination, which was a good thing, but did nothing to win the heart of those cold crows. If I recall correctly, one of his betrayer was crying, telling "for the Watch". They believe they're acting right, so jon failed as commander of his men.

Also, discarding Melisandre's "help" (and keeping in mind her influence on the king) was a dumb move.