lets destroy the sun

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by Malroth

I fail to see how this is easier than having a cancer mage UMD a scroll of plane shift.

Mine doesn't require arbitrarily high <anything> Just prep time and a relatively small number of "magic Items" in the contingencies on the 50gp/unit skeleton carriers. With a decent sized organization behind it providing funding, say an illithid enclave, mine's actually doable if there's not some exceedingly important detail I'm still missing.

[tuggyne]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

I follow now, but at the same time, the choice of 6 anchor points was essentially arbitrary. You can get 2 anchors in geosynchronous or even geostationary orbit and have them stable to each other for the same net-effect. The whole wall is springing into existence in an instant in the basic version.

Sure, but that is where the horrible tidal forces come in. All the sections of the wall are going to want to orbit (and/or fall) at different speeds and different directions. I don't believe iron has enough tensile strength to reasonably deal with that kind of warping; even if it somehow held together, large segments would start falling rather rapidly inward at the poles, because there's no way you'd have enough stiffness to keep them in the same shape against gravity.

Basically you're trying to make a (paper-) thin iron bubble held up and stretched out by gravity by spinning it around, and that just isn't going to happen. A narrow ring you can do, but not a full sphere.

Originally Posted by Eldan

Hm. Where are the earth/sun Lagrange points? Maybe you could build something there.

Perhaps so. Not sure if you could get it big enough to remain stable.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by tuggyne

Sure, but that is where the horrible tidal forces come in. All the sections of the wall are going to want to orbit (and/or fall) at different speeds and different directions. I don't believe iron has enough tensile strength to reasonably deal with that kind of warping; even if it somehow held together, large segments would start falling rather rapidly inward at the poles, because there's no way you'd have enough stiffness to keep them in the same shape against gravity.

Basically you're trying to make a (paper-) thin iron bubble held up and stretched out by gravity by spinning it around, and that just isn't going to happen. A narrow ring you can do, but not a full sphere.



Perhaps so. Not sure if you could get it big enough to remain stable.

You lost me again.

A) the wall isn't in sections. It's all one solid piece. At least in one version.

B) it's stone, not iron. Wall of iron has to be a flat sheet.

C) what role does centrifugal force play in this? I know it plays some role.

D) Some carefully placed reverse gravity support may be in order. Fortunately gravity is very manipulable in D&D.

I'm not saying that my project is a simple one, but I think it -may- be doable within a reasonable (relativly speaking) time frame. It's not cheap either, but I don't think it's completely outside of the bounds possibilty either.

It clearly needs more thought though.

[tuggyne]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

A) the wall isn't in sections. It's all one solid piece. At least in one version.

Well, no; however, different areas of the piece are experiencing different forces and moving at different speeds. In particular, the closer you are to the poles, the slower the effective linear momentum is for the same given angular rotation. I was using sections to refer to those different areas, not separated chunks.

B) it's stone, not iron. Wall of iron has to be a flat sheet.

Right, sorry. That is unfortunately even worse; stone tends to be moderately strong in compression, but doesn't have much tensile strength.

C) what role does centrifugal force play in this? I know it plays some role.

You could loosely say that that's part of what's supporting the equatorial ring (which is the only part following an actual orbit). It also has some effect on the rest of the structure, but weaker and poorly directed as you move poleward from the equator in both directions (it has a roughly fixed angle and a decreasing strength), whereas gravity is exerting a fixed pull at varying angles).

D) Some carefully placed reverse gravity support may be in order. Fortunately gravity is very manipulable in D&D.

That ... could work. It would be tricky to place, and very expensive, but it would solve most of the macro-scale stresses. However, you'd still need a sturdy framework to build it on, otherwise spreading the forces from reversed and regular gravity out would break it apart in small pieces rather than big. And, of course, the other vaguely-alluded-to hazards would still need to be dealt with.

If you solved all those engineering problems, it'd be kinda interesting to run a campaign around, I think, but definitely more Isaac Asimov than Tolkien.

[mattie_p]

Originally Posted by tuggyne

If you solved all those engineering problems, it'd be kinda interesting to run a campaign around, I think, but definitely more Isaac Asimov than Tolkien.

Probably a little more like Larry Niven, but your point is well taken.

Although...

A wall of stone is 1 inch thick per four caster levels and composed of up to one 5-foot square per level. You can double the wall’s area by halving its thickness. The wall cannot be conjured so that it occupies the same space as a creature or another object.

I don't see it being able to be stretched any more than double per the description. Are we just extrapolating here, or are we just applying that sentence multiple times? I guess with a generous reading we could do that.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Actually the gravitational thing isn't at all tricky, except in placement. The basic unit is the reverse gravity spell, which simply inverts the local gravity in its AoE. Placed in such a way as to have the wall exactly where gravity and reversed gravity intersect you get a point of null gravity.

The biggest cost problem is that reverse gravity isn't on the permanency list, necessitating the creation of magic devices if we stick to strickt raw. I actually have come up with a cost effective way to make permanent spells, but under the strictest definition it'd probably be considered home-brew.

..... RESETTING TRAPS!!!

Holy hell, I think I just invented antigravity in D&D.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by mattie_p

Probably a little more like Larry Niven, but your point is well taken.

Although...

I don't see it being able to be stretched any more than double per the description. Are we just extrapolating here, or are we just applying that sentence multiple times? I guess with a generous reading we could do that.

I'm applying the clause multiple times. There's nothing there that says you can -only- halve the thickness to double the area.

Strict V permissive reading of an ambiguous rule like this is up to the individual GM. I don't think my reading changes the power level of the spell at all.

[panaikhan]

Not to nitpick, but are people's mathematical calculations based upon the Earth, and It's Sun?
I believe someone once stated that each of the 'recognized' settings are MUCH smaller than the Earth (I remember a map of the Earth with almost all of them placed on it, scale for scale).
Add to that, the 'Sun' may well be an orb a few hundred feet in diameter attached to the inside of a shell painted with stars. It may be a God. It may be a vehicle of a God. The only thing you CAN say, is that it gives off light.

[Devmaar]

Could we have the Wall of Stone shell supported by Immovable Rods?

[panaikhan]

The Wall of Stone shell could be supported by Wall of Stone columns, planted into the ground at 8 points around the globe. Just be sure to make them Invisible or fit them with SEP fields.

[Jacque]

There's a spell which makes the sun go into an ecplipse. Isn't that a bit more tasteful?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by Jacque

There's a spell which makes the sun go into an ecplipse. Isn't that a bit more tasteful?

It's been adressed and discarded on account of it only covers a couple miles of area on the surface of the planet and is an epic spell.

[Rubik]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

It's been adressed and discarded on account of it only covers a couple miles of area on the surface of the planet and is an epic spell.

Yeah. We can do better with non-epic spells, which tend to be more powerful than what's already written for epic spells, assuming intelligent use and/or metamagic.

Also, it's postulated in some sources, such as the Manual of the Planes, that the sun in some campaign worlds is merely a gate to the positive energy plane (PEP).

It should be easy enough to close via Disjunction, or possibly with a Dimensional Anchor or Dimension Lock.

[Dr Bwaa]

Originally Posted by tuggyne

To be more precise: it's not "4000 cu ft + 1000 cu ft/level", it's "four 10' cubes + one 10' cube/level (S)". The distinction is unfortunately important; you can't shape it any tighter than 10' on a given dimension (according to the usual spell shaping rules).

...I've never seen those rules before. Well that's out I guess.

Originally Posted by Devmaar

Could we have the Wall of Stone shell supported by Immovable Rods?

Personally I doubt this thread needs to be derailed any further by questioning the physics of immovable rods (What is it that they are immovable relative to? Conventional use suggests that they are immovable with respect to a nearby given point on the earth's surface, essentially meaning that they are in very low-altitude geostationary orbit... not going into that for now). But feel free to try!

HOWEVER, on the subject of the wall of stone shell: It's looking like that would be pretty hard to put together, but why do you actually need it in geosynchronous orbit, or as a solid shell, for that matter? Surely we could do the same thing by Disintegrating some walls of stone or other created blocks of mass moving at orbital speeds around the planet--a dust cloud ought to be just as effective as a molecules-thick wall of stone, and much easier to keep in orbit.

[killem2]

Did anyone know if there is an ability to uncap those per level/ per day/ per mile whatever limits on spells?

[Slipperychicken]

Originally Posted by killem2

Did anyone know if there is an ability to uncap those per level/ per day/ per mile whatever limits on spells?

I recall the fear Reserves of Strength does this through its horrible wording.



I don't remember if someone mentioned it, but here goes:

Warblade is teleported into the Sun. Iron Heart Surge the radiation. IHS whatever is holding the Sun together, and so on.

[Battleship789]

Originally Posted by tuggyne

*snip*

Come to think of it, this is basically the problem that governs certain choices in the Dyson sphere ideas — specifically, the decision to use solar wind/light pressure to support the structure, rather than orbiting as such. Which you could do, except that Earth-like planets don't radiate much at all.

So make a Wall of Stone Dyson Sphere with a radius less than the planet's orbit radius?

And the IHS trick is easier with a Drow/Orc Warblade (light sensitivity).

[Jacque]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

It's been adressed and discarded on account of it only covers a couple miles of area on the surface of the planet and is an epic spell.

Relics & Rituals has a spell called Eclipse. This spell effects the whole world and is a level 9 spell.

The book is setting specific to Scarred Lands though.

[tuggyne]

Originally Posted by Battleship789

So make a Wall of Stone Dyson Sphere with a radius less than the planet's orbit radius?

That would be effective, but even more expensive.

Originally Posted by Dr Bwaa

HOWEVER, on the subject of the wall of stone shell: It's looking like that would be pretty hard to put together, but why do you actually need it in geosynchronous orbit, or as a solid shell, for that matter? Surely we could do the same thing by Disintegrating some walls of stone or other created blocks of mass moving at orbital speeds around the planet--a dust cloud ought to be just as effective as a molecules-thick wall of stone, and much easier to keep in orbit.

In the short term, it'd stay in orbit better, but over a span of years it would tend to thin out (due largely to upper-atmospheric drag), so you'd need to refresh it once in a while.

[mattie_p]

I can't imagine how many catgirls we've killed in this thread so far, with so many more to come.

That said, let me kill some more. The dust from disintegrated walls of stone in orbit would eventually coalesce into rings.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by Jacque

Relics & Rituals has a spell called Eclipse. This spell effects the whole world and is a level 9 spell.

The book is setting specific to Scarred Lands though.

I'm not familiar with that supplement. Is it 3rd party?
Edit: found it. Not just 3rd party but technically not even dungeons and dragons. It's a sword and sorcery supplement.

RE; the complexity of my wall of stone shell:

Yeah, it's a project for an organization rather than something an individual could do, but we're getting pretty close to exhausting the non-epic options for a single caster.

[Battleship789]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

I'm not familiar with that supplement. Is it 3rd party?
Edit: found it. Not just 3rd party but technically not even dungeons and dragons. It's a sword and sorcery supplement.

RE; the complexity of my wall of stone shell:

Yeah, it's a project for an organization rather than something an individual could do, but we're getting pretty close to exhausting the non-epic options for a single caster.

Sans looping, of course (and Sand Giant shenanigans to get Epic Spellcasting at <20th level). I think the silent image idea has probably been the coolest (too bad it doesn't work.)

[Slipperychicken]

Originally Posted by mattie_p

The dust from disintegrated walls of stone in orbit would eventually coalesce into rings.

This is freaking awesome. If we decide to keep the Sun, I vote for putting dust-rings on it, sort of like Jupiter or this.


Why stop with the Sun? Why not customize the whole universe generally look awesome? If you can re-arrange star positions, we could get some seriously awesome constellations out of that... and screw with stargazers at the same time. Granted, it would take millions of years for the light to get to Earth, but it'd be totally worth it.

[nedz]

Just sculpt the moon into a skull.

[NichG]

For what its worth, I think that nearly anything requiring an organization to do is far more likely to fly at an actual table than anything involving a single pre-epic caster. It 'feels' more like a real effort and a project of a size worthy of making such a huge alteration. Of course if the plot came from the DM's side of the table, there are good odds it'd be a MacGuffin artifact and a BBEG who wants it in order to single-handedly wipe out the sun (whereas the organization would be a much bigger challenge to stop, especially if everyone already had the instructions and the materials and it was just a matter of time).

[Qwertystop]

I say if you're going to make it a dust cloud, don't make it out of stone dust. Make it out of iron filings. Earth has a magnetic field. If Alan Dean Foster was right, this means you wouldn't get rings, you'd get wings!

[Crake]

I know it was discussed and likely rejected on the first page, but opening a gate in the middle of the sun would do it, and you can take out a plane of your preference in the process! The intense gravity of the sun would cause an immense amount of super-dense material to flow through the gate for its short duration, and while it won't be enough to wink out the sun, it will probably be more than enough to reduce the sun's mass by enough to trigger a supernova.
For those confused, the sun's huge mass is keeping its own explosive force from doing just that, exploding. If you can take out enough of its mass, especially from its superdense core, you'll reduce its gravity enough that it will just simply explode as its explosive force becomes greater than its implosive force.

Now the question becomes not how to destroy the sun, but rather do you want the earth intact, and if you do, how do you plan on going about protecting it from a supernova.

The other option is to go the opposite way and produce enough material to have the sun collapse into a black hole. That one would take a lot more time though. Of course.... once you've got the sun collapsed into a black hole........... its then easy enough to engulf it in a sphere of annihilation. Need to do that before tidal forces rip apart the planet though.

[nedz]

Originally Posted by Qwertystop

I say if you're going to make it a dust cloud, don't make it out of stone dust. Make it out of iron filings. Earth has a magnetic field. If Alan Dean Foster was right, this means you wouldn't get rings, you'd get wings!

Bonus points if you hit them with a permanent Gitterdust first.

[tuggyne]

Originally Posted by Crake

I know it was discussed and likely rejected on the first page, but opening a gate in the middle of the sun would do it, and you can take out a plane of your preference in the process! The intense gravity of the sun would cause an immense amount of super-dense material to flow through the gate for its short duration, and while it won't be enough to wink out the sun, it will probably be more than enough to reduce the sun's mass by enough to trigger a supernova.
For those confused, the sun's huge mass is keeping its own explosive force from doing just that, exploding. If you can take out enough of its mass, especially from its superdense core, you'll reduce its gravity enough that it will just simply explode as its explosive force becomes greater than its implosive force.

This is... no. The sun is not massive enough to ever supernova. Instead, when it exhausts its hydrogen, it will become a red giant. (This is true for nearly all stars of the rough mass category our sun is in, from 0.23 solar masses to perhaps 10.) If you reduced its mass by enough, it would simply shrink into a white dwarf. (I doubt you could reduce its mass significantly, according to the earlier calculations, so all you'd accomplish is destroying stuff on the target plane.)

[Crake]

Originally Posted by tuggyne

This is... no. The sun is not massive enough to ever supernova. Instead, when it exhausts its hydrogen, it will become a red giant. (This is true for nearly all stars of the rough mass category our sun is in, from 0.23 solar masses to perhaps 10.) If you reduced its mass by enough, it would simply shrink into a white dwarf. (I doubt you could reduce its mass significantly, according to the earlier calculations, so all you'd accomplish is destroying stuff on the target plane.)

That's certainly true if it were to run its natural course, but you could theoretically get any sun to supernova if you were to reduce its core mass enough in a short enough amount of time.