Martial Arts in the Playground

[Morph Bark]

Originally Posted by noparlpf

In my experience, kendo is super-formal, and it's not even really about a realistic form of combat. It's a somewhat stylised combat to score points in a very specific sort of way in tournaments.

That's true, and I know that, but I meant more in the sense of that you aren't allowed to use certain moves until you've reached a certain dan grade in the sport.

Also, can anyone tell me what "hanguldo" is? I've seen it stand next to Hapkido and its relatives, but have yet to find an explanation of it.

I keep finding more stuff nearby. Or rather, more stuff due to also searching in the two big cities nearby, rather than just my town and three surrounding ones.

[noparlpf]

Originally Posted by Morph Bark

That's true, and I know that, but I meant more in the sense of that you aren't allowed to use certain moves until you've reached a certain dan grade in the sport.

Also, can anyone tell me what "hanguldo" is? I've seen it stand next to Hapkido and its relatives, but have yet to find an explanation of it.

I keep finding more stuff nearby. Or rather, more stuff due to also searching in the two big cities nearby, rather than just my town and three surrounding ones.

Ah. Yeah, I'm not sure about that. I'll try looking it up.

I think this is what you're looking for.

[Morph Bark]

Nonono, it said Hankido seperately next to that. "Hapkido - Hankido - Hankumdo - Hanguldo" it said. On several sites of dojos around the country.

[Asta Kask]

http://www.european-hanguldo-federat.../hanguldo.html

European hanguldo federation. You'll have to find someone to translate from German.

[Janus]

Turned out that every route online to the longsword group used closed highways.
I'll try again next Saturday.

Originally Posted by noparlpf

I'd like to find a German sword school, but I have no idea where to start looking, and also those usually cost money.

http://www.thearma.org/Practice/partners.htm
Try ARMA. If anything, they have a lot of information about European martial arts on their site.

[Morph Bark]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

http://www.european-hanguldo-federat.../hanguldo.html

European hanguldo federation. You'll have to find someone to translate from German.

Thanks. Luckily I can understand German well enough to get most of what they mean.

Today I found places in nearby cities for Wing Chun, Shaolin Kung Fu, Kendo/Jodo/Iaido, Pencak Silat and Sando. One place has a LOT of stuff, but is also the furthest away of the ones I could reasonably attend, but only if I had money for the bus or could get my dad's car. It even has MMA classes, which in the process of trying out everything will probably be the last one on the list that I'll visit.

There's also one place where they teach swordfighting, but the site fails so incredibly often that I haven't yet really been able to read into it.

[snoopy13a]

Originally Posted by noparlpf

Kendo is very formal, though, so a lot of what you learn is for scoring points in matches, and isn't as useful in real life.

Not for nothing, but is any type of swordfighting, realistic or not, useful in real life?

[noparlpf]

Originally Posted by snoopy13a

Not for nothing, but is any type of swordfighting, realistic or not, useful in real life?

Well. Maybe not modern real life. But that's not the point. Besides, is carrying a sword illegal?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by snoopy13a

Not for nothing, but is any type of swordfighting, realistic or not, useful in real life?

It can be. If you find yourself in a bad situation and there happens to be an appropriately sized stick or pipe nearby, the techniques will translate reasonably well, assuming the style is still reasonably close to its combative roots.

Originally Posted by noparlpf

Well. Maybe not modern real life. But that's not the point. Besides, is carrying a sword illegal?

Depends on where you live. It's generally frowned upon, even if it is legal unless you have a permit to carry a concealed deadly weapon and keep it under wraps.

[Janus]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

It can be. If you find yourself in a bad situation and there happens to be an appropriately sized stick or pipe nearby, the techniques will translate reasonably well, assuming the style is still reasonably close to its combative roots.

THIS.
Thisthisthisthis.

It's why I'm annoyed with all the drawbacks D&D throws in for improvised weapons.

[SiuiS]

Originally Posted by noparlpf

In my experience, kendo is super-formal, and it's not even really about a realistic form of combat. It's a somewhat stylised combat to score points in a very specific sort of way in tournaments.

I'd like to find a German sword school, but I have no idea where to start looking, and also those usually cost money.

Believe it or not, a skilled kendoka is unstoppably fast. you can mitigate the force but if one comes at you with a broomstick an intent, you're gonna get hit. And while striking the armor is for safety in Kendo, that translates to broken wrists, skulls, ribs and collapsed throat in unarmed combat. They may need to think real hard before using it for swordwork, but it is phenomenal stick skill

Originally Posted by snoopy13a

Not for nothing, but is any type of swordfighting, realistic or not, useful in real life?

Yes.

Originally Posted by noparlpf

Well. Maybe not modern real life. But that's not the point. Besides, is carrying a sword illegal?

Not as such. They often fall under knives. Although its still reasonable suspicion, and possibly felonious carrying of a martial arts weapon. As far as generalities go, of course. Specifics are a no-no.

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

Depends on where you live. It's generally frowned upon, even if it is legal unless you have a permit to carry a concealed deadly weapon and keep it under wraps.

concealed? There is almost no way to carry a sword concealed at the hip. Or did you mean something else?

[Morph Bark]

Originally Posted by snoopy13a

Not for nothing, but is any type of swordfighting, realistic or not, useful in real life?

As Kelb said, it can reasonably translate to real life if you find an appropriately sized stick. Fencing doesn't have that as much as kendo, since in kendo you train with a bamboo sword, which is balanced very differently from fencing swords and much closer to a random stick (weight will differ still though). Might be why they teach jodo a lot at the same dojos as kendo around here.

Eskrima's prolly good as well, but that isn't sword-only.

What kind of swordfighting is most useful in real life, actually?


Where I'm from, I hear you're not allowed to carry even replica swords. You need to keep them in a box or some other form of casing.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Believe it or not, a skilled kendoka is unstoppably fast. you can mitigate the force but if one comes at you with a broomstick an intent, you're gonna get hit. And while striking the armor is for safety in Kendo, that translates to broken wrists, skulls, ribs and collapsed throat in unarmed combat. They may need to think real hard before using it for swordwork, but it is phenomenal stick skill



Yes.



Not as such. They often fall under knives. Although its still reasonable suspicion, and possibly felonious carrying of a martial arts weapon. As far as generalities go, of course. Specifics are a no-no.



concealed? There is almost no way to carry a sword concealed at the hip. Or did you mean something else?

There's no such thing as unstoppably fast. Reflexes vary from person to person and some people can pull off moves that are almost preternatural.

As for concealing a sword, two things come to mind. The first is the cane-sword. It's a sword that's similar to the swords used in fencing and the scabbard and hilt are designed to make it look like a simple walking cane until you draw. The other is wearing a bit more traditional shortsword of some sort with the scabbard strapped diagonally across your back with the handle pointed down and toward you dominant side. You have to reach under your coat to draw it, but it's otherwise difficult to detect.

Concealing something like a broadsword or arming sword would require wearing a trench-coat or duster, and keeping it concealed in doors would be pretty much impossible if the place was heated or you had to sit down.

Check with you local law enforcement agency and/or a lawyer to determine the legality of concealed carrying of any kind of deadly weapon in your area, though, and make sure to ask about swords in particular, as they may be governed by different laws than guns. I won't say any more on this subject since I feel I'm getting uncumfortably close to the forum's legal advice rule.

For a good sword style for use with a non-sword, any style that centered around heavily armored combatants will translate well. Knights would often grip their sword by the guard or the blade for some techniques because doing so was advantageous and their guantlets protected their hands. Since a stick probably won't cut you, using it in a similar style should yeild effective results.

Don't think that a shinai or even a boken is weighted like any random stick you might find though. Both are balanced to simulate the katana, the sword they replace in practice.

[SiuiS]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

There's no such thing as unstoppably fast. Reflexes vary from person to person and some people can pull off moves that are almost preternatural.

Sophistry. Of course some people seem really good; these Kendoka fall under that category. It's also a factor of awareness, actual speed and effective speed in combination. My point still stands; kendo can and will, of you care to learn it, teach you speed.

As for concealing a sword,

Going into something with the intent to conceal a lethal weapon is a very different beast than having a sword on you. I still don't understand why you would carry a sword, concealed, on your person. But whatever.

Concealed weapons are noticeable. The posture is different. The clothes hang differently. A person who knows they have a weapon will unconsciously gesture their hands toward its resting spot. They will either pointedly lock their gaze or flick twir eyes in the direction of the weapon. Trench coats do a really bad job of concealing swords because the motion transmits down the lever differentt than it does the legs and clothes. The fabric will cover It visually but it's akin to a tablecloth hiding a table.



Tried some of the taijiquan forms I know. Or knew. Not only are try Arles, but my legs and back aren't happy. I may get back into these things yet.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Sophistry. Of course some people seem really good; these Kendoka fall under that category. It's also a factor of awareness, actual speed and effective speed in combination. My point still stands; kendo can and will, of you care to learn it, teach you speed.

Wasn't denying that. Just that kendo or any other martial art could make you un-anything (-beatable, -stoppable, -detectably fast, etc).

Going into something with the intent to conceal a lethal weapon is a very different beast than having a sword on you. I still don't understand why you would carry a sword, concealed, on your person. But whatever.

I wouldn't, but it is doable. I -do- carry a pretty good sized knife sometimes.

Concealed weapons are noticeable. The posture is different. The clothes hang differently. A person who knows they have a weapon will unconsciously gesture their hands toward its resting spot. They will either pointedly lock their gaze or flick twir eyes in the direction of the weapon. Trench coats do a really bad job of concealing swords because the motion transmits down the lever differentt than it does the legs and clothes. The fabric will cover It visually but it's akin to a tablecloth hiding a table.

Except for your point about the motion of the trenchcoat, all of those depend on training and the exact cut of your clothing. The knife I mentioned above is arguably a short-sword (16 inches overall length), but noone's ever noticed it on me when I do carry it. Carrying a weapon for protection and carrying a weapon with the intent of harming someone are very different animals. You get used to the former after a while and all but forget you have it unless something triggers your sense of danger. Learning to conceal the fact that it's been triggered is another matter.

Tried some of the taijiquan forms I know. Or knew. Not only are try Arles, but my legs and back aren't happy. I may get back into these things yet.

Ouch. Back pain sucks. Hope that clears up for you.

[SiuiS]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

I wouldn't, but it is doable. I -do- carry a pretty good sized knife sometimes.

Except for your point about the motion of the trenchcoat, all of those depend on training and the exact cut of your clothing. The knife I mentioned above is arguably a short-sword (16 inches overall length), but noone's ever noticed it on me when I do carry it. Carrying a weapon for protection and carrying a weapon with the intent of harming someone are very different animals. You get used to the former after a while and all but forget you have it unless something triggers your sense of danger. Learning to conceal the fact that it's been triggered is another matter.

That's introducing extra variables though: the cut of the clothes can help, but that calls in other people's lack of observation skill. Learning to consider something a part of you so you don't fidget with it is likewise a matter of acclimation, an intent. I would be surprised if you didn't have some tell. It's the sort of thing that becomes habitual. Whether or my someone knows it's a tell and not an affectation is a different matter.

Ouch. Back pain sucks. Hope that clears up for you.

Yes, consequences of a sedentary lifestyle I fear. Also sorry. That was atrocious spelling even for me.

[scurv]

Never introduce a weapon into combat unless you are proficient in it. If someone is jumping you, You do not know if they have 5 years of blade fighting experience in the bad streets, lock down,<insert military unit here> or they could of been the youngest of 6 siblings who used them as a punching bag. So the weapon you introduce could very well end up becoming theirs.

Many people do not plan their career into a life of crime, Some of them decide on it based on what skills they already have.

Added to that, And I know the law vary alot on this from place to place, even inside of the states. If you are the one to bring out the blade, it could seem as if you are the attacker to law enforcement types. And even in the states we have so many laws on acceptable self defense that I would be concerned about using my opponents weapon on them.

Now all that aside, Personally I would love to learn sword fighting, And I would happily do it just for the love of the art.

[Kelb_Panthera]

^ scurv here is absolutely right.

You should never carry a weapon that you're not proficient with. You should never carry a weapon you're not prepared to use if it's called for, and you should never, ever draw your weapon first, unless you feel your life will be endangered by failing to do so.

All combat is serious business, but this is extra true of weapon based combat.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

I'm assuming fencing ties into this topic, yes? :) I'm, or rather, I used to be a competetive fencer. It's been a few years however. I miss it a lot.

[noparlpf]

How do you know who "won" a spar if it's not to KO? I don't think they explained the point-scoring system to us, or if they did it was one of the days I missed.
I also hope the school gives us funding soon so we can buy more sparring gear. I bruised my foot pretty badly yesterday because we had no shin-and-ankle-guards.

[Asta Kask]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

Wasn't denying that. Just that kendo or any other martial art could make you un-anything (-beatable, -stoppable, -detectably fast, etc).

I imagine a martial arts master could become pretty unbearable. Especially if they won't shut up about their preferred art.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by noparlpf

How do you know who "won" a spar if it's not to KO? I don't think they explained the point-scoring system to us, or if they did it was one of the days I missed.
I also hope the school gives us funding soon so we can buy more sparring gear. I bruised my foot pretty badly yesterday because we had no shin-and-ankle-guards.

Winning isn't generally the point in a spar. You spar to sharpen your skills by employing them in an environment where you can have a reasonable assurance that you won't be intentionally, seriously injured, and have reasonably skilled peers that can help you to spot weak-points in your technique or tactics. Winning is for real fights and competition, but if you absolutely must know "who won" having a neutral observer declare a winner can work.

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

I imagine a martial arts master could become pretty unbearable. Especially if they won't shut up about their preferred art.

Touche'. While I find that genuine masters of a given art are usually pretty mellow, masters of a gym or training hall can get a little antsy if the idea that their style isn't awesome comes up. Many martial artists are prone to a bit of bravado.

[noparlpf]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

Winning isn't generally the point in a spar. You spar to sharpen your skills by employing them in an environment where you can have a reasonable assurance that you won't be intentionally, seriously injured, and have reasonably skilled peers that can help you to spot weak-points in your technique or tactics. Winning is for real fights and competition, but if you absolutely must know "who won" having a neutral observer declare a winner can work.

Well, yeah, but as an adolescent male I'm unhealthily competitive. So naturally I want to know "who's better". Even if we're still just beginners.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by noparlpf

Well, yeah, but as an adolescent male I'm unhealthily competitive. So naturally I want to know "who's better". Even if we're still just beginners.

Then like I said, ask a neutral observer to compare your performances, preferably one whose skill exceeds you both. Don't ask who won though, it'll get you a lecture if he's not also overly-competetive. You can just decide who won for yourself by who made more, or more important, mistakes. Keep it to yourself, noone likes a braggard.

[SiuiS]

Originally Posted by noparlpf

How do you know who "won" a spar if it's not to KO? I don't think they explained the point-scoring system to us, or if they did it was one of the days I missed.
I also hope the school gives us funding soon so we can buy more sparring gear. I bruised my foot pretty badly yesterday because we had no shin-and-ankle-guards.

Generally, you'll know if there is a clear winner if you require a winner, then there is often a preset 'win' condition, such a firs to get a solid strike in, or first to throw the other, or first to successfully engage a lock. Or making the other guy give up. Just don't be that **** who is willing to break a bone, or get a bone broken, to prove a point.

But if younger through sparring and feel like the other guy didn't have a chance, you've won.



On weapons, I tend to stick to the continuum of force idea. If its a boxing match, I'm not going to kick, grab or break. If its a fist fight, I'm not going to grab a weapon. Yes, this means there are some others I will lose when I could have won. I find the concept of bein bruised badly and running away better than jail time for manslaughter.

[DarkEternal]

From my personal experience:

If you want to learn how to really, really hurt someone, and in my own personal opinion the most realistic real life system of combat that will teach you how to handle yourself on the street(but can also land you in jail because like I said, it's really about laying on the hurt), then Krav Maga. It's as lethal as it gets. Like every good Krav Maga instructor will say; "There is no bad martial art. And if you're in combat with someone who gives you time to prepare, that's great. Krav Maga is when you need to react. Immediatelly and with the maximum results. Also, no martial art is as good as a good pair of legs and a healthy pair of luns, both that can serve you to run the hell away from whatever it is".

It won't turn you into a Superman, but it will give you a good chance, and it's got pretty intense training. I've been training it for three years now, and it is good, though to be sincere I would never have the stomach to do the things they teached me there (in a normal fight. If I was under mortal threat, well...then I suppose you don't really think about anyone's safety but your own there).

BJJ is also very good, but of course, focuses mainly if you get on the ground(chances are, in real life scenarios you probably will)


If you want conditioning, good body workout and overall, again in my opinion, the most physically exhausting, look no further then Boxing. It's going to make you drenched by the end of every session. Three minutes in a ring, even as an amateur with a guy who won't hit you with any strength will make you feel like you've been through the grinder and make you feel really, really good afterwards. Of all the martial arts-sports, I really liked boxing. It is pure, it is unfiltered, and there's intelligence behind every single move that you make. It's all about the movement, about your physical condition and by using your wits. I know, when you look at some of the pro's, you'd think they are not capable of it, but trust me. Box is great. And has a real life application.


If you want to sweat it out in a more exotic way, Capoeira, Tae-Kwon Do, sports like those. Notice I said sports. They are fun, they are rhytmic, and they are engaging. But honestly, from what I have seen, in real life situations, not a single person I knew ever used anything they learned, except their own body conditioning(no high, fast kicks, or acrobatics) in real life situations. Not to say it's bad, but depending on your body type and your own wants, it depends.

Other eastern martial arts are far more "philsophical" with the exception of Judo and Aikido which can lay down the hurt just as much as the ones I mentioned upwards. Judo in particular is devastating against people that don't know what they are doing, and your own body type is not as important in it( What I mean, you can basically fling people twice your size with the techniques you learn). Still, be very careful where you go to study these systems. While I adore the philosophy of martial arts, there are too many frauds out there that will try to turn you into a "ninja" or some other nonsense while in general all they are doing is taking your money. Things like that happen in the western arts as well, but less frequently due to the "mystique" of the East. For feeling good and being able to do it anywhere, Tai Chi is okay. Karate is well known, though personally I never liked it much. I have a soft spot for Kendo because it's a style I never got the chance to try out, and I really wanted to(too far away from my home, the only dojo in my town).

[Janus]

Managed to make it to my first night of longsword on Saturday.
COOLEST FREAKING THING EVER!

I was impressed by how much of my old kenjutsu techniques managed to transfer over. Footwork was the same (at least, I don't remember having to adjust it), and I only had to slightly alter some of my movements with the sword itself, and that was mainly to take advantage of the longsword's dual edges, length, and shape differences from the katana.

Here's a video of "freeplay" or sparring. The man in blue is the founder of the Association of Renaissance Martial Arts, the group I've joined.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNja00FNyeg

[SiuiS]

DarkEternal, no offense but a lot of that sounds like you're reiterating thoughts that may not really be accurate Anymore. There hasn't been a mystique of the east ever since they stopped calling it the Orient. Have you compared Krav Maga to Sambo? I find that natives who try these systems come out stronger than Americans who try these systems. This says to me that the style itself means a lot less than the kind of person who learns it. Killers don't learn Krav Maga because it's a dangerous art, Krav Maga is a dangerous art because it is know predominantly by killers. Krav Maga also has a sports version, by the way. They teach it at my local 24 hour fitness. You cannot judge an art off of one person who teaches it.

[Zadhadras]

I would love to be able to find a local Jogo Do Pau or Bataireacht club.

Jogo Do pau is Portuguese staff fighting. Bataireacht is irish cane fighting.

Sadly, bataireacht is apparently held somewhat in disdain in Ireland and is nearly extinct there. Fortunately, the Doyle family brought a version of it to Newfoundland when the emigrated in the mid 1800's and its been taught to family members ever since. Now the family grandmaster is teaching it to the public and the art is starting to spread.

Jogo Do pau:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSDSsereOdg

Bataireacht:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcH0ww_Jbfg

[The Succubus]

I used to do Bushido many years ago. It was a mixture of all kinds of martials, karate, aikido (which was my "specialised school" - the style I had the most lessons in) kenjitsu (I still have my katana on the wall <3) and mixed weapons fighting like the bo staff and very infrequently nunchuks.

I've been going to the gym and while it's keeping me in a passable shape (lit. not spherical) it's getting dull and I'd love to do some sparring sometime. I'm looking for a UK Tae-kwon-do group in NW London that encourages 1 on 1 sparring rather than group "repeat the moves" style of classes. Hope I find something.