Martial Arts in the Playground

[Spiryt]

Originally Posted by Metahuman1

Learning the basics of Akido or Tai Chi or a similar style has the advantage of teaching you a lot about using your opponents balance against him and about how to redirect his force. Though a lot of presser points and stuff are banned for safety reasons which hurts such forms a lot.

There's no ban for such thing in anything I've ever seen though... Groin, throat, eyes and spine are pretty universally banned in MMA competitions, and nothing else as far as legal target goes.

[Frozen_Feet]

As a comment on free sparring, our club's rules for such is "no punches to the head, kicks to the head are allowed". Not "use karate only". Those of us who know other arts can and do include them, though you rarely can even tell. It's not like basic punches etc. are that different between arts.

In my experience, the problem is not breadth of techniques, but the fact that you can't use full force for most of them. In the dojo, you will never be allowed to, say, break an arm with a lock. On the street, you may have to.

I was a bit confused about the roundhouse kick part. Are we talking about (in karate terms) mawasigeri, uramawasigeri or ushiromawasigeri? Because first and second will leave your body sideways at most and you will face your opponent whole time. In the case of third, I agree. It's needless against common folks.

Also, I had a lesson where we practiced mule kicks against moving targets. Turning tail was half the point, because it leaves you in best position to run away. Of course, context is important: most self-defense situations are drunken brawls, and a drunken agressor will often puff their chest when coming at you, leaving their stomach wide open. So you pre-emptively knock wind out of them and run. Quess which art this was.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The roundhouse we were discussing is the roundhouse from muay thai. I don't know which, if any, of those karate "roundhouses" it would translate to. I've always been more concerned with what works more than what the techniques are called. Consequently I rarely know the original name of a technique, just the engish name.

As for MMA rules, different circuts have different safety rules, but attacks whose sole purpose is to cripple the opponent are generally out, not just as a safety concern but also as a matter of respect for your fellow competitors. This generally means no striking the back of the head or spine, no small joint-locks, no kicking directly into the knee-cap, no spiking the opponent, etc. Then there's the dirty fighting moves that are eliminated, no eye-gouging, no fish-hooking, no hitting "below the belt," etc.

Of note: if you automatically picture the UFC when you hear "MMA," it might interest you to know that the UFC has some of the most stringent safety rules of any MMA circut.

[Metahuman1]

Originally Posted by dehro

I don't think there's a single country where a sword cane is a legal item to be carried around. in fact in most countries you can't even buy one unless it's an antique (100+ years old) and even then you need a permit...just to buy it..forget walking around with it.

Come down to Florida some time, walk into a knife/self defense shop or grab a bud-k catalog. Then get a Concealed carry permit. Congrats, your legal.




And I was under the impression that a lot of soft power techniques and presser and nerve strikes and small join manipulations were generally not allowed in competitive MMA?

[SiuiS]

Originally Posted by Spiryt

How exactly you define "forward elbows", though?

And no one really does anything beacuse it's "safer", everyone wants to win so does most damaging thing he can within the rules....

The few I've checked had hitting with the broad "meat" of the elbow as a legal move unless you were driving it into the top of the skull, but hitting with the narrow, forward facing point was not because most areas the sport occurs in consider that lethal force.

Originally Posted by Metahuman1

Though occurs to me, if you can get a concealed weapons permit and there legal for ownership/carry/use in your area, a sword cane or umbrella sword would be a fairly easy way around it.

It's socially unacceptable to carry a sword, unless they don't know you have a sword on you until your being attacked. Once your being attacked, I promise, most sensible people will just be grateful that you took the precaution of making sure if necessary you could protect yourself and those in the immediate vicinity. And unless and until that comes to pass, what they don't know isn't gonna hurt them.

I don't think so. If you get into a self-defense situation where you win and your enemies have sword wounds, that's not going to look good on your end. A pocket knife could achieve the same results, while also being a utility tool. A sword, especially a concealed one, can only really be justified as a weapon intent on causing harm – especially because a regular, run of the mill wooden came can be used for defense with a much lower fatality rate.

Learning the basics of Akido or Tai Chi or a similar style has the advantage of teaching you a lot about using your opponents balance against him and about how to redirect his force. Though a lot of presser points and stuff are banned for safety reasons which hurts such forms a lot.

I think Akido and Aikido are separate styles. I don't know much about Akido except that it exists.

Originally Posted by dehro

I don't think there's a single country where a sword cane is a legal item to be carried around. in fact in most countries you can't even buy one unless it's an antique (100+ years old) and even then you need a permit...just to buy it..forget walking around with it.

Yeah, mostly. You can get them here in the states, but it's kind of shady. Bud-K catalogues have little footnotes that not everything you can get in them is legal in every state. They sell butterfly knives, for instance, which are pretty uh, "frowned upon" around these parts.

Originally Posted by Metahuman1

Come down to Florida some time, walk into a knife/self defense shop or grab a bud-k catalog. Then get a Concealed carry permit. Congrats, your legal.

I am pretty sure that there is no permit in the united states which allows for the concealed carry of any blades weapon. You also get into implied ethics, premeditation, acceptable force and necessity of combat.

And I was under the impression that a lot of soft power techniques and presser and nerve strikes and small join manipulations were generally not allowed in competitive MMA?

No, its really just that performing them effectively enough to actually deter a conditioned fighter requires soft tissue damage. One knuckle or a sturdy chop to the carotid can cause unconsciousness by forcing blood to accelerate into the brain pan. It can also do a lot of other things that are worse, so they don't use them. It's also why they get really second-by-second during blood chokes. They can do a lot of harm.

[Spiryt]

And I was under the impression that a lot of soft power techniques and presser and nerve strikes and small join manipulations were generally not allowed in competitive MMA?

Small joint (toes and fingers) manipulations is not allowed.

There's absolutely nothing about pressers of whatever. People punch and knee themselves into such nerve bundles as liver and solar plexus, so worrying about some acupuncture would be pointless...

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

As for MMA rules, different circuts have different safety rules, but attacks whose sole purpose is to cripple the opponent are generally out, not just as a safety concern but also as a matter of respect for your fellow competitors. This generally means no striking the back of the head or spine, no small joint-locks, no kicking directly into the knee-cap, no spiking the opponent, etc. Then there's the dirty fighting moves that are eliminated, no eye-gouging, no fish-hooking, no hitting "below the belt," etc.

Kicking the knee-cap is legal. Other stuff listed is illegal indeed.

Spoiler

The few I've checked had hitting with the broad "meat" of the elbow as a legal move unless you were driving it into the top of the skull, but hitting with the narrow, forward facing point was not because most areas the sport occurs in consider that lethal force.

I'm not sure what you're checking, but the only rule in pro US MMA about elbows is that they can't be "12-6" so go directly downwards.

Silly rule, but somebody had that idea from whatever reason.

There's absolutely no clarification about parts of elbow. People hit with the very tip quite often, indeed.

One knuckle or a sturdy chop to the carotid can cause unconsciousness by forcing blood to accelerate into the brain pan. It can also do a lot of other things that are worse, so they don't use them. It's also why they get really second-by-second during blood chokes. They can do a lot of harm.

I really think that somebody would already try those famed 'chops to the cartoid somewhere, somehow. Because they are not illegal at all, and if they allow to win big money...

Blood chokes are different - some people go 'second by second' not only because it's safer, but to be sure they have it locked in well, sometimes they just crank the hell out it, because there's opportunity.

Spoiler

you to know that the UFC has some of the most stringent safety rules of any MMA circut.

UFC really follows only what they have by unified rules of MMA in USA. There are plenty of more strict rulings. Particularly amateur MMA obviously has more things banned, because competitors aren't on high level of athletic and technical shape.

[Frozen_Feet]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

The roundhouse we were discussing is the roundhouse from muay thai. I don't know which, if any, of those karate "roundhouses" it would translate to. I've always been more concerned with what works more than what the techniques are called. Consequently I rarely know the original name of a technique, just the engish name.

Yay, I checked (now that I'm on a computer), and it is basic mawasigeri. Which is why the point about turning your back doesn't make sense to me - the kick won't leave your back exposed unless you (or your opponent) overturn your body.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet

Yay, I checked (now that I'm on a computer), and it is basic mawasigeri. Which is why the point about turning your back doesn't make sense to me - the kick won't leave your back exposed unless you (or your opponent) overturn your body.

If it's got everything you've got behind it and you miss then there will be a moment when your back is partially exposed, but like I said, it's a very small window that would be nearly impossible for any but the most skilled of opponents to capitalize on.

You can always follow it with a wheel kick or a back kick too, further minimizing the risk. I'm pretty sure I'm blending styles at that point though.

I really should start keeping better track of which moves came from which style.


Edit: looked up mawashi geri; completely different kick from a thai roundhouse.

Here's a video demonstration of the left-roundhouse. Since I'm a south-paw this would be a standard roundhouse for me since I wouldn't need to do a switch-step first. Notice how when he kicks full-force he can't help momentarily turning his back, though as he explains in a match or fight you'd simply continue to spin until you'd gone all the way around.

[Jallorn]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

I am pretty sure that there is no permit in the united states which allows for the concealed carry of any blades weapon. You also get into implied ethics, premeditation, acceptable force and necessity of combat.

In Chicago, as long as the blade is under a certain size (not sure what exactly, I just know that my survival knife is easily too big at 8', handle included) you can conceal carry.

So hey, I'm going to be hanging around here a bit I think, since I've slowly increased my knowledge of and interest in martial arts within the last couple years. I haven't taken lessons yet, but I'm going to next semester once I can fit it into my schedule. There's a Dojo in the town I go to college in. Unfortunately, it's the only one, this being a small town and all, but it seems fairly legit, so it's not as bad as it could be. If I'm right they teach a variation of Muay Tai, but from what I can tell it's pretty MMA actually (with a seperate MMA class for even broader styles, like western wrestling or boxing).

The philosophy as I understand it so far is the idea of having a small set of basic moves and learning how to apply them in as many different situations as possible so as to improve adaptability. Also control of space, and every attack being a defense and every defense being an attack.

Oh, I'm also going to be learning European Longsword, but that won't be until the summer, so that's a ways off.

[SiuiS]

Originally Posted by Spiryt

I'm not sure what you're checking, but the only rule in pro US MMA about elbows is that they can't be "12-6" so go directly downwards.

Currently? Nothing. These were the local circuit rules for open play circa 2005.

Silly rule, but somebody had that idea from whatever reason.

A direct downward strike can drive the cranial suture into the brain. You can't do that for the same reason you can't wear gloves; a semblance of safety.

I really think that somebody would already try those famed 'chops to the cartoid somewhere, somehow. Because they are not illegal at all, and if they allow to win big money...

Them you're not really thinking at all. You've already said yourself that hitting the throat is illegal. Why would somebody try hopping the throat for "big money" if it's illegal?

The padding also drastically changes the mechanics. That's why boxers use hooks, striking with the fifth metacarpal knuckle. On a boxing glove it's the most economic, powerful strike. On a naked fist it's waste of energy and a broken bone.

Blood chokes are different - some people go 'second by second' not only because it's safer, but to be sure they have it locked in well, sometimes they just crank the hell out it, because there's opportunity.

Spoiler

You misunderstand; referees pay really close attention, second by second, because it's dangerous. I believe both blood and air chokes constitute lethal force in enough instances as to say all of them. That ye fighter would just torque the other guy's blood flow to ye brain for 25k or whatever is EXACTLY the reason to have a referee in there.

Originally Posted by Jallorn

In Chicago, as long as the blade is under a certain size (not sure what exactly, I just know that my survival knife is easily too big at 8', handle included) you can conceal carry.

Fair point. 'bladed weapon' Isn't what I wanted to say, but everything specific I wrote was about specific laws. I know the California penal code section for carrying of weapons by heart, for example, as well as a within-five-years-accurate list of which cities and counties have more stringent rules. Unfortunately, none of that applies generically.

Most places allow the carrying of pocket knives, pen knives and multi-tools, even places that normally crack down on such things (with exceptions, I know a public library where you can't carry anything. But your wallet). Those would be a tool, rather than a weapon. And I am still very positive that the united states pretty universally looks badly at concealing a sword, by whatever definition, for everyday carrying

There is also that carrying a sword is less about self defense than most martial arts.

So hey, I'm going to be hanging around here a bit I think, since I've slowly increased my knowledge of and interest in martial arts within the last couple years. I haven't taken lessons yet, but I'm going to next semester once I can fit it into my schedule. There's a Dojo in the town I go to college in. Unfortunately, it's the only one, this being a small town and all, but it seems fairly legit, so it's not as bad as it could be. If I'm right they teach a variation of Muay Tai, but from what I can tell it's pretty MMA actually (with a seperate MMA class for even broader styles, like western wrestling or boxing).

The philosophy as I understand it so far is the idea of having a small set of basic moves and learning how to apply them in as many different situations as possible so as to improve adaptability. Also control of space, and every attack being a defense and every defense being an attack.

Oh, I'm also going to be learning European Longsword, but that won't be until the summer, so that's a ways off.

Neat. Glad to have you! Look forward to the stuff you come up with.

[Worira]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

No, its really just that performing them effectively enough to actually deter a conditioned fighter requires soft tissue damage. One knuckle or a sturdy chop to the carotid can cause unconsciousness by forcing blood to accelerate into the brain pan. It can also do a lot of other things that are worse, so they don't use them. It's also why they get really second-by-second during blood chokes. They can do a lot of harm.

Find me a single documented case of this, please.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by Worira

Find me a single documented case of this, please.

One knuckle sounds like a bit of a stretch, but a good knife-hand to the carotid could certainly cause a disruption in bloodflow that would cause unconciousness, though probably only briefly. I'd honestly be more concerned with hitting it too hard and causing a rupture and, consequently, death.

[Spiryt]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

A direct downward strike can drive the cranial suture into the brain. You can't do that for the same reason you can't wear gloves; a semblance of safety.

There's absolutely nothing about other elbows that cannot 'drive cranial structure' into brain. Direct downward strikes happen all the time and are legal just because both fighters are at different angle, so it doesn't come straight down.

Much more powerful strikes, from knees to spinning elbows cannot drive anything into brain, broken jaws, orbitals, maxilla's are relatively often, but I don't think that actual cranial splints happen anywhere south of car crashes, those are powerful bones.

Elbows like that happen from time to time in Muay Thai and don't result in such damage.

Them you're not really thinking at all. You've already said yourself that hitting the throat is illegal. Why would somebody try hopping the throat for "big money" if it's illegal?

Because such 'chops', open palm strikes and whatever else are not illegal in any way.

So there's no reason to hold back.


Strikes to throat happen, but nobody generally actively aims there, due to illegality.

The padding also drastically changes the mechanics. That's why boxers use hooks, striking with the fifth metacarpal knuckle. On a boxing glove it's the most economic, powerful strike. On a naked fist it's waste of energy and a broken bone.

Of course, but in ungloved no-hold barrel or striking competitions, people still don't completely abandon punches in any way... Very often go for the body, throw it differently, but still punch, to the head as well.


You misunderstand; referees pay really close attention, second by second, because it's dangerous. I believe both blood and air chokes constitute lethal force in enough instances as to say all of them. That ye fighter would just torque the other guy's blood flow to ye brain for 25k or whatever is EXACTLY the reason to have a referee in there.

Find me a single documented case of this, please.

I would be really interested as well.

Pretty damn powerful roundhouse kicks land on the neck hole time, and don't cause anything...

Obviously, hand strike has really different mechanics, precision and all, no discussion, but it still doesn't sound probable...

[TheFallenOne]

Originally Posted by noparlpf

How do you define free sparring? If two students spar, there are still rules like "stay within this martial art", so even though we're resisting each other and trying to hit each other, I can't grapple with someone at taekwondo practice. It makes a kicking-heavy martial art rather less useful when you don't learn how not to get tripped up when someone catches your leg.

Obviously you have to stay within the constraints of the rules. Our randori is pretty much pure wrestling, no kicks, punches, stuff with the small joints... And it goes until one taps.

Does is simulate a real fight? Far from it. But it teaches you something you don't learn by just repeating the same sequence of moves over and over against a mostly cooperating enemy, starting from the same position each time. The latter shows you the techniques. But the former gives you a chance to implement them against someone who doesn't want you to and learn to quickly spot what to do in the middle of a fast changing situation. You may know a nice joint lock, but if you notice a second too late you had a chance to use it that's not worth all that much.

[SiuiS]

Originally Posted by Worira

Find me a single documented case of this, please.

Mm, no. You're a big risen martyr, if you're interested you can look it up yourself. I've seen it happen, bu that's inevitably anecdotal and not documented. Its not a game I care to play. I'm not worrie about whether you believe it or not.

Originally Posted by Spiryt

There's absolutely nothing about other elbows that cannot 'drive cranial structure' into brain.

Cranial suture. Look it up in an anatomy text and then think about it.

Because such 'chops', open palm strikes and whatever else are not illegal in any way.

Strikes to throat happen, but nobody generally actively aims there, due to illegality.

You've answered your own question without challenging my claim at all. Thank you.

Of course, but in ungloved no-hold barrel or striking competitions, people still don't completely abandon punches in any way... Very often go for the body, throw it differently, but still punch, to the head as well.

Irrelevant. You're assuming. This, again, doesn't challenge my statement at all.

Pretty damn powerful roundhouse kicks land on the neck hole time, and don't cause anything...

Oddly, this is documented. One of those martial arts travel and compete shows, a-la deadliest warrior, has at least one instance of a roundhouse to the neck causing unconsciousness due to messing with circulation.

[dehro]

@suius

you are aware, I hope, that any point of view mentioning even only laterally "deadliest warrior" as a worthy source of information instantly loses credibility, right?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by dehro

@suius

you are aware, I hope, that any point of view mentioning even only laterally "deadliest warrior" as a worthy source of information instantly loses credibility, right?

In fairness, I very much doubt that deadliest warrior is what SiuiS had in mind. Probably just used that title because it was the first one to come to mind.

More likely he was thinking of fight science, or one of those other nat' geo or discovery network shows.

There's exactly zero travel for the hosts of Deadliest Warrior.

You do have a point though. Entertaining as it is, Deadliest Warrior is -not- good science on a number of levels. From using base-line human averages for calculations in reaction speed and general movement to "experts" that clearly know everything about their weapons except how to properly wield them (with a few exceptions), they've got more than a few holes in their number crunching.

[Spiryt]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Mm, no. You're a big risen martyr, if you're interested you can look it up yourself. I've seen it happen, bu that's inevitably anecdotal and not documented. Its not a game I care to play. I'm not worrie about whether you believe it or not.

Well, sorry, no one is playing "game" or "martyr", and there's no reason for such tone.

You are making a claim, you should back it up, it's pretty obvious.

Cranial suture. Look it up in an anatomy text and then think about it.

Ok, so there are sutures, in the cranium, and they like... exist.

I'm not sure how should it be relevant to anything.

Any source about them getting damaged by strikes of any sorts, let alone elbows?

You've answered your own question without challenging my claim at all. Thank you.

Then what's your point.

Chops, open palm strikes and whatever are legal.

Striking the neck is perfectly legal as well. Throat and spine are banned, but those are smallish part of the neck, especially in more 'bulked up' individuals.

So 'cartoid strike' or anything similar, is again, perfectly legal.

So chops to the neck are perfectly legal.

Can't state it more simply.

Irrelevant. You're assuming. This, again, doesn't challenge my statement at all.

I'm assuming what?

Again, I'm just stating that I've never have seen someone seriously go for "neck chops" even in bare knuckle fights. So gloves or lack of such don't seem to be relevant.

Oddly, this is documented. One of those martial arts travel and compete shows, a-la deadliest warrior, has at least one instance of a roundhouse to the neck causing unconsciousness due to messing with circulation.

That's interesting.

Those shows sadly are usually horribly dumb, but I may take a look at this, if somebody has any details about this, to check what level of facts it had.

[Pheehelm]

Question for the hand-to-hand self-defense experts, since this is something I've idly wondered for years: hypothetically, if you ended up in a real self-defense situation, were unarmed, and running wasn't a viable option (or you just didn't feel like it), what would you ideally rather be wearing? Counting accessories and especially footwear here.

(We'll say the other guy doesn't have a firearm, but may or may not have some other weapon.)

[Spiryt]

Well, something like motorcycle armor would probably be more than handful, but it really depends on situation.

Good piece of stick is always great 'accessory' as well.

[dehro]

I'm far from being an expert, but I'd say that confortable clothes would be favourite.. (as in, won't tear apart or impede movement when you try to knee someone in the groin or bend in "less than formal" ways. I don't know about you guys, but last time I had cause to spread my legs a little whilst wearing a suit.. let's just say that sensitive parts of me protested).. a few layers of clothes would be even better..as to lessen/spread the impact of blows..
no glasses, no ear-rings or other decorative accessories that might cause tearing/scratching/cutting of skin or sensitive organs..
then again, much depends on what your "plan" is for such a situation... whether you need something sturdy like a leather jacket or not...etc etc
does a rolled up magazine count as accessory?

[Pheehelm]

I specifically said "unarmed." So, no sticks or rolled-up magazines. An accessory might be like, say for instance, a headband, wristband, maybe gloves or elbow/knee pads, though depending on usage that could really be pushing the definition of unarmed.

[dehro]

gotcha.. would safety footwear stretch it too? they tend to be steel-capped (steel or something equally sturdy)
edit:
then again.. it's kinda unlikely to walk around in places without there being anything that couldn't be converted in a weapon, in a pinch.. from a keyring to a belt with a heavy buckle, from a roll of mints to a rolled up sweater, pretty much everything can be used as a weapon..defensive or offensive as may be.. and finding something, anything, to take hold of and use to look like more of a menace than I'd look with empty hands would be my first course of action.
in my experience, looking like you know what you're doing can defuse a situation quicker than actually coming to blows.

[Pheehelm]

Actually the number one sub-question on my mind is how steel-toed boots rank up with running shoes* and anything else. Even if we're talking about using kicks in a real fight for some reason, where I admit it would stretch the definition of "weapon."

As far as the "anything and everything can be a weapon," well, Iunno, pretend it slipped your mind in the adrenaline rush or something. Work with me here, I'm trying to eliminate "not fighting" and "using a weapon."

(*Aside from the bit where "the best defense is a good pair of running shoes." Note I explicitly eliminated that.)

[razorback]

Well, something like motorcycle armor would probably be more than handful, but it really depends on situation.

I ride almost year round and always wear armor. It would be a handful. While my leg armor and jacket would protect/absorb some damage, I'm not sure about the trade off that it robs me of flexibility and speed. I'm not sure if I'd want it even if they had a knife. Even though I could absorb/deflect most slashes, the amount it decreased my speed would be detrimental.
My Vans, loose jeans, and a t-shirt (like I normally wear) would probably be optimal for most situations.

[SiuiS]

Originally Posted by dehro

@suius

you are aware, I hope, that any point of view mentioning even only laterally "deadliest warrior" as a worthy source of information instantly loses credibility, right?

Yes, but it wasn't a stated opinion. It was a guy getting kicked in the neck and passing out. Much better, visual evidence.

Originally Posted by Spiryt

Well, sorry, no one is playing "game" or "martyr"

And again you miss the important detail there. You DO realize that the person I quote has an avatar of the Risen Martyr Prestige class from book of exalted deeds, right? Because if you think about it, risen martyr is a rather specific phrase to use for someone who is neither martyring themselves nor risen in any meaningful sense.

You are making a claim, you should back it up, it's pretty obvious.

And I have. Whether you find it sufficient isn't important to me. This thread isn't about proof of concept, and again, if you actually care to find the information, it's there. And it's in my best interests to let you look, since you obviously won't take my word for it.

Ok, so there are sutures, in the cranium, and they like... exist.

I'm not sure how should it be relevant to anything.

Same reason it's relevant that the bottom tip of the sternum ossifies into bone at around age twenty five. Ignoring the difference between a specific structure and structures of the skull in general is sloppy.

How about the reverse? Find for me an alternate reason a 12-6 elbow is illegal.

Then what's your point.

Chops, open palm strikes and whatever are legal.

Striking the neck is perfectly legal as well. Throat and spine are banned, but those are smallish part of the neck, especially in more 'bulked up' individuals.

So 'cartoid strike' or anything similar, is again, perfectly legal.

So chops to the neck are perfectly legal.

Can't state it more simply.

Carotid is anterior to the sternocleidomastoid muscle and is part of the anterior triangle that is almost universally regarded as "throat". So like I said, you answered it yourself. Which again, is apparent if you look at anatomy stuff. Skepticism is fine, but not for it's own sake.

[Spiryt]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

And I have. Whether you find it sufficient isn't important to me. This thread isn't about proof of concept, and again, if you actually care to find the information, it's there. And it's in my best interests to let you look, since you obviously won't take my word for it.

Well, in such case everyone can be left with their own opinion, I guess.

Personally I can't find much about it, save silly YT videos.

Same reason it's relevant that the bottom tip of the sternum ossifies into bone at around age twenty five. Ignoring the difference between a specific structure and structures of the skull in general is sloppy.

How about the reverse? Find for me an alternate reason a 12-6 elbow is illegal.

It's supposedly illegal because some oaf had seen some guy breaking ice blocks with 12-6 elbows or whatever. That's the legend at least.

Anyway, this rule doesn't have any sense, there's really nothing inherently more dangerous about "12-6" elbow compared to any other elbow.

The very angle being set in stone, instead being dependent on fighters position makes it pointless.

As far as sternum goes - it's a change the topic, without real connection to the the previous one. "Sloppiness" doesn't seem fair nor relevant from that reason.

Sternum ossification isn't relevant here either.

The point is finding any proof of elbow strike being able to produce more serious damage to actual neuron-cranial structure (aside from the back of the head/spine), than knees, for example.

Muay Thai rules fully allow such attack, and ruination of knees and legs in general 'traditionally' stays the worst injury, ending careers etc.

From around 6:30

Carotid is anterior to the sternocleidomastoid muscle and is part of the anterior triangle that is almost universally regarded as "throat". So like I said, you answered it yourself. Which again, is apparent if you look at anatomy stuff. Skepticism is fine, but not for it's own sake.

Well, I guess it depends on definition of 'throat' then.

It's ('throat') not actually defined in Unified MMA rules in USA, so actual precedence is in effect I guess. And I've never seen anyone penalised for strikes to sternocleidomastoid, or kinda "front-side but not quite the throat".

Spoiler

[Vicki143]

When my daughter was 11 years old and the new kid in school she was attacked by 6 girls just outside the school. Luckily a man from a business across the street came over and broke it up. We then put her in Tai Kwon Do. She did not want to go but promised us she would for one month. After a week of going to classes she was a different person. Now many years later she is a second degree black belt and was an instructor for awhile. We went to a lot of tournaments over the years and in 1998 she came in 4th in the USA. First place was a beautiful little Korean girl who was magnificent. After many years of training she is very independent and especially in this world today confident of her safety and always is aware of what is around her.

[Morph Bark]

Originally Posted by Spiryt

Well, something like motorcycle armor would probably be more than handful, but it really depends on situation.

Good piece of stick is always great 'accessory' as well.

So... the best prepared man is a motorcyclist who either plays baseball or practices kendo so he can have a bat or bokken ready at any time with reason?


By the way, can wearing lenses be a bad idea in a fight? I wear glasses and would obviously take them off when going practicing (and if possible before getting into a fight; "here, hold my glasses for me"), but I've thought about it for ages to get lenses instead. Not so much for practical reasons other than that they're easier to keep clean, it's mainly for aesthetic reasons, but considering glasses came up here, figured I should ask.

Originally Posted by Vicki143

When my daughter was 11 years old and the new kid in school she was attacked by 6 girls just outside the school. Luckily a man from a business across the street came over and broke it up. We then put her in Tai Kwon Do. She did not want to go but promised us she would for one month. After a week of going to classes she was a different person. Now many years later she is a second degree black belt and was an instructor for awhile. We went to a lot of tournaments over the years and in 1998 she came in 4th in the USA. First place was a beautiful little Korean girl who was magnificent. After many years of training she is very independent and especially in this world today confident of her safety and always is aware of what is around her.

Martial arts: it won't make you a fighting master, but with the confidence you gain from it, you won't need to be.

[noparlpf]

I prefer to wear contacts while sparring or fighting. You have slightly better peripheral vision, and you don't have to worry about your glasses breaking.
(Of course, the darn glasses place lost the order for my contacts three months ago and they've been avoiding my calls for a while. But I'm going in tomorrow.)